What glass/cloth combo??

[Tony]

The bow eye on my Whaler got ripped loose over the weekend. Its basically an eyebolt with a 4" square backing plate inside the boat. It looks like there was only a few layers of glass between the foam core and backing plate. There isnt any rot it was just pulled out by force.

Im thinking since this is going to be sandwiched between a lot of pressure that Epoxy resin probably isnt a good idea?

[Offshore Ginger]

Tony , did the backing plate rip thru the boat and why do you think that using epoxy isnt a good idea ? Tony either way you are going to need some beef and the fabric of choice that i would suggest using is # 1708 .

[Tony]

Yes, the backing plate ripped through the 2 layers of glass on the inside and lodged in the foam core.

Wouldnt the epoxy tend to crack under a lot of squeeze pressure?

[Offshore Ginger]

Yes, the backing plate ripped through the 2 layers of glass on the inside and lodged in the foam core.

Wouldnt the epoxy tend to crack under a lot of squeeze pressure? Tony i would see no proplem with epoxy cracking under preassure just give the repair more beef then it had and you should be good to go .

[Trim'd Up]

Epoxy resin is stronger than polyester. Why do you think it would crack before polyester would? 1708 would be what I would use too. You will get a really strong repair with just a couple of layers instead of using bunch of layers of lighter cloth.

[J-Bonz]

Dude, Are you going to be up this weekend. I could bring some 1700 back with me for ya.
Jr.

[glassdave]

Dude, Are you going to be up this weekend. I could bring some 1700 back with me for ya.
Jr.

1700 is the way to go with epoxy. Wets out way eaiser then 1708 and will be among the strongest laminate you can get with epoxy. if you have any gaps to fill mix in some 404 and do those first

OK Tony . . . . how'd this happen if i might ask :D

(if its a boring trailer incedent please feel free to make up some funny story of how this happened out at the Casino :D)

[Tony]

I hooked a line to the bar and tried to tow it out of the building in reverse. The bar won. :D

[Offshore Ginger]

1700 is the way to go with epoxy. Wets out way eaiser then 1708 and will be among the strongest laminate you can get with epoxy. if you have any gaps to fill mix in some 404 and do those first

OK Tony . . . . how'd this happen if i might ask :D

(if its a boring trailer incedent please feel free to make up some funny story of how this happened out at the Casino :D) Tony S or E glass is made for epoxy repair and Cabosil is far more cheaper then 404 which is way overpriced and Cabosil is a filler additive designed to thicken resin .

[glassdave]

Tony S or E glass is made for epoxy repair and Cabosil is far more cheaper then 404 which is way overpriced and Cabosil is a filler additive designed to thicken resin .

cabosil is a light filler that cannot handle a compressive load even remotly as well as 404 and a qt of 404 is what elevan bucks? I'd still stick with a high density filler in the bow eye area if you needed it. C'mon Artie get out of the stone age you trouble maker you. :p :willy_nilly::biggrinjester:


Tony for your application i would get my hands on some of the 1700 from Jack and build it up nicely from the inside. Up side of the 1700 is wetout ability especially working in close quarters. If you the strongest fiberglass S is the top shelf stuff followed by E like Artie says. For what your doing you'll be fine with any nice tech weave in all reality (as long as it has no mat).

Hey Artie, you been to Skater lately? Pete's making me some interesting parts for a job i have. I'll call you with the details. Its right in you expertise

[Tony]

What exactly is 1700? And why shouldnt you use mat?

[glassdave]

1700 is a 17oz bi-ax fiberglass cloth with no mat stiched to it like the 1708 has. You can use a stiched mat with epoxy but it is difficult to wet and does not have near the strength of a good tech weave. Mat is usually used as a bonding layer in fiberglass systems but it is unnecessary with epoxy. Also standard non stiched mat has a binder that does not break down with epoxy leaving it a very weak laminate.

The number denotes what weights are in a given cloth

1708= 17oz cloth with 3/4oz mat
1700= 17oz cloth with no mat
1815=18oz cloth with ounce and a half mat
and so on

[Geronimo36]

After using the 1708 with Epoxy, I'll definitely be using 1700 on the next project. I found it difficult and time consuming to wet it out properly. Matter of fact, the first laminate I called up Dave and said WTF, this stuff is weird! ;)

One thing is for sure, the work area is plenty strong regardless. 830+ hp and run in some big seas this year and it's better than ever! :)

[Offshore Ginger]

What exactly is 1700? And why shouldnt you use mat? 1700 is actually S glass and Dave in all the years that i worked at Skater Pete has never used `404`and still dosent to this day .Dave if i would have suggested using 404 at Douglas Pete would have rolled his eyes at me and just laugh . Dave im hopeing to be out there this week to order some materials and what are you getting from Douglas and might it be pods for the tunnel ? Dave , whos in the stone age .................. hell the last time that i used Poly or vinyl was over 25 years ago and the first time i started using Epoxy was when i was in my early 20's building windmill blades for the Guoegon Brother's in Bay City Mich or the makers of West system mr Flintstone he he he he . Dave shoot me a ring or ill buzz you .

[glassdave]

lol just bust'in on ya Artie. Maybe not 404 but atleast use a high density filler. Cabosil gets to light for me if i need high compression. I use 404 because its easy to get and cheap. Cabosil is great stuff for filling all kinds of voids i just dont think it has great bond or compression characteristics.


Yea go check on my pods and tell him NO CABOSIL lol :ack2::leaving::willy_nilly:

I'll call ya, is this one of yours?

[Tony]

1700 is a 17oz bi-ax fiberglass cloth with no mat stiched to it like the 1708 has. You can use a stiched mat with epoxy but it is difficult to wet and does not have near the strength of a good tech weave. Mat is usually used as a bonding layer in fiberglass systems but it is unnecessary with epoxy. Also standard non stiched mat has a binder that does not break down with epoxy leaving it a very weak laminate.

The number denotes what weights are in a given cloth

1708= 17oz cloth with 3/4oz mat
1700= 17oz cloth with no mat
1815=18oz cloth with ounce and a half mat
and so on

So, Im guessing this stuff isnt the standard mat, cloth, or woven roving that you buy at Napa?

[Offshore Ginger]

lol just bust'in on ya Artie. Maybe not 404 but atleast use a high density filler. Cabosil gets to light for me if i need high compression. I use 404 because its easy to get and cheap. Cabosil is great stuff for filling all kinds of voids i just dont think it has great bond or compression characteristics.


Yea go check on my pods and tell him NO CABOSIL lol :ack2::leaving::willy_nilly:

I'll call ya, is this one of yours? you Dawgggggggggggggg :rofl:

[Offshore Ginger]

So, Im guessing this stuff isnt the standard mat, cloth, or woven roving that you buy at Napa? Tony most S & E glass OR 1700 is not readily available unless ordered .:)

[glassdave]

So, Im guessing this stuff isnt the standard mat, cloth, or woven roving that you buy at Napa?


nope, if you get in a pinch i can send you a few square feet but it sounds like Jack should have plenty of end cuts left over from his Apache project. I am guessing you only need a square few feet?

[J-Bonz]

Tony,
Like I said, I should be back this weekend. I have enough to spare. I can give to Full Fart or who over you want. Should be at the casino saturday night if all goes well. Might have to stop at the sand bar party for a little........... Jus give me a call....
Jr.

[J-Bonz]

nope, if you get in a pinch i can send you a few square feet but it sounds like Jack should have plenty of end cuts left over from his Apache project. I am guessing you only need a square few feet?

Thanks again for all the help Dave.... Slowly making progress...

[DonziGirl]

Dave - we were "those" people at the ramp last weekend. You know the couple you say you'll never be? We were them.

Tony - "NO! You need to throttle harder, it isn't going on the trailer right!. "

I AM!

Let ME do it then! Oh.... it isn't going on right...


It didn't help this was after our camping trip where everything was covered in sand, we beached the Whaler by accident on the sandbar and had to carry a **** load of stuff back and forth from the beach to the boat.

[Geronimo36]

Dave, I have a question about 1708 and 1700, it just occured to me.....

What about bonding 1700/Epoxy to an existing substrate? Does the 1700 provide enough bond to the old surface or should 1708 be used for the first layer of the laminate?

Just curious!

[glassdave]

Dave, I have a question about 1708 and 1700, it just occured to me.....

What about bonding 1700/Epoxy to an existing substrate? Does the 1700 provide enough bond to the old surface or should 1708 be used for the first layer of the laminate?

Just curious!

yes but only with epoxy and as long as the surface is completely sanded. With epoxy you dont need the layer of mat for a bond. Dont really know the mechanics of it but i know mat does not really have a place in an epoxy system.

[fund razor]

Do you happen to stock 1708 Dave?

[Geronimo36]

yes but only with epoxy and as long as the surface is completely sanded. With epoxy you dont need the layer of mat for a bond. Dont really know the mechanics of it but i know mat does not really have a place in an epoxy system.

Great info, thanks Dave!

[Offshore Ginger]

Dave, I have a question about 1708 and 1700, it just occured to me.....

What about bonding 1700/Epoxy to an existing substrate? Does the 1700 provide enough bond to the old surface or should 1708 be used for the first layer of the laminate?

Just curious! what are you up 2 now ? Frank 9 times out of 10 most people will use 1708 for the pure fact that if you are using west system epoxy they will call a west systens service tech and they will recomernd 1708 because the 3/4 oz chop back is sewn into the weave of the S glass and like i said in a previous post 1700 or S glass is not readily available unless ordered . Frank the reason for not using a chop back is very simple because epoxy will not saturate or absorb into the fabric (mat / chop ) as well as poly or vinyl because of the chemical make up . Hope all is well................. artie

[Geronimo36]

Things are great! Nothin doin, just curious on the 1700 for use with Epoxy in the future.

It was definitely a PITA wetting out the 1708 with the Epoxy. In the future I'll do the 1700 and see how I like it.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

yes but only with epoxy and as long as the surface is completely sanded. With epoxy you dont need the layer of mat for a bond. Dont really know the mechanics of it but i know mat does not really have a place in an epoxy system.

I was told, pretty sure it was Pete, the binding agent in the mat can interfere with epoxy curing.

As far as the wetting of 1708 with polyester. I have always pre wetted the fabric with a nice brush shiny side {woven side } first, flip the piece and completely wet mat side.

[Offshore Ginger]

I was told, pretty sure it was Pete, the binding agent in the mat can interfere with epoxy curing.

As far as the wetting of 1708 with polyester. I have always pre wetted the fabric with a nice brush shiny side {woven side } first, flip the piece and completely wet mat side. I have seen in years past while working at Skater and S 2 Yachts were the binder (chop) has torn away from the mat put this was a learning curve from using Vinyl / Poly going into using Epoxy .

[Sean H]

I was told, pretty sure it was Pete, the binding agent in the mat can interfere with epoxy curing.

As far as the wetting of 1708 with polyester. I have always pre wetted the fabric with a nice brush shiny side {woven side } first, flip the piece and completely wet mat side.

There is no styrene in epoxy to break down the adhesive in the mat to allow a complete saturation and proper curing.

Like Dave said, epoxy and mat really don't go together.

[Geronimo36]

1708 doesn't have styrene binder, its stiched. It is just hard to wet out. Only way I got it to wet out the way I liked it was to roll it and squegee before lay-up

[fund razor]

I had decent results with 1708 wetting out with polyester resin using the brush and wetting both sides. Then wetted some more when it was in place. I just tried to get the resin on evenly, so that the mat saturated more uniformly. Seemed like many lighter coats with the brush was better than dumping it on the mat and spreading it out.

[fund razor]

1708 doesn't have styrene binder, its stiched. It is just hard to wet out. Only way I got it to wet out the way I liked it was to roll it and squegee before lay-up

I did some 1708 yesterday and thought about this post. Had a heck of a time getting it to wet well. Maybe my ratio was off, or the sun that came around and hit the work. It was ok in the end. But dam was it tough this time. Had to keep applying resin and then it would run.

[Geronimo36]

I did some 1708 yesterday and thought about this post. Had a heck of a time getting it to wet well. Maybe my ratio was off, or the sun that came around and hit the work. It was ok in the end. But dam was it tough this time. Had to keep applying resin and then it would run.

i like to wet it out on a piece of cardboard or an old table top that have then squegee out and then lay it into place and roll the bubbles out. It gves me the (for lack of a better term) the most dry and clean lay-up.

[Steve 1]

A while back people would laugh when they saw my Chopper Gun that was Until the Carbon fiber tow was spotted going to the gun,Then the snickering stopped.