At wits end...what would Jim do?

[Tony]

So I fired theese new engiens last Tuesday and had a ticking exhaust leak on the stbd engine. My builder used GM performance blocks with the oil dipstick tube journals at deck height...Sooo I had to use half inch aluminum spacers between the heads and the manifolds with a gasket on each side of the spacer. When I pulled the riser off there was water in the manifold, I wrote it off as carelessly pulling off the manifold to riser hose.

Today I glued a new set of gaskets to each side of the spacer with copper based RTV Permatex and let it set up under weight, I doubled up the thick flat washers on the manifold heads becase I originally thought the bolts may have bottomed out. Fired the engine and it still ticked severley, I brought it up to temp to see if the tick went away with heat expansion and it never totally did.

The #1 and #3 cylinder are showing carbon marks between the head and spacer, I checked everything with a straight edge and all is well, I double checked the bolt length and its fine too.
I carefully pulled it appart and the inside of the manifold was plasterd with water droplets and again there was water pooled in the bottom of the manifold. I pulled the oposite riser and it had water in it too.

Seems like I've got a few different problems here but for the life of me, I can't figure out the lack of seal or the reversion, these are long risers with an anti reversion tab welded into the elbow on a mild camshaft....WTF?!

[Ratickle]

I know someones gonna ask overlap......

[Tony]

more pictures

[Ratickle]

Have the manifolds been pressure tested? They look new, but???

[Tony]

long riser

[Tony]

Every last part on theese engines are brand spankin new.

[inbetween]

more pictures

Either that head or spacer isn't flat. I guess it could've been under torqued in those spots too, but I'd go with spacer not flat as a guess from this perspective. That doesn't account for the water though.

[insanity]

Are the spacers all one piece or three pieces to go around each of the ports? (obviously the middle spacer would go around both ports). Did you check the thickness of the spacer in addition to the flatness? For example, mic the spacer where one of the obvious leaks is and compare it to the thickness of a spot that wasn't leaking?

Any way to change out the dipstick to route to the front of the head and get rid of the spacers all together?

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Damn Tony, I am sorry it is giving you trouble. What is the that on the head between 1 and 3? I plug or something. Is that holding the manifold out on the bottom?

If you stick a straight edge across both flame arresters is it the same as across the two manifolds from port to starboard engines. I missing or leaking cylinder will sometimes draw water back. Where does the water mix in the tail piece. Flow water through it and look with a flash light. Also just for grins flow water through the motor with the manifold off and pressure check or fill the manifold with water. Bark the motor dry to dry out the cylinders. Then sleep on it.

It really sucks but, you can't assume anything when you have a problem with new parts. You need to check everything.

I hope the problem shows its ugly face soon.

[J-Bonz]

It really sucks but, you can't assume anything when you have a problem with new parts. You need to check everything.



Jim,
That is the best advice I have heard in a long time! 100% Totally True!! Tony, Sorry about you problem. I hope you get that figured out and get on the water soon. This must be driving you nuts!
Jr.

[TMS1155]

If you can get to the drain plugs in the oil pan maybe you could put dipstick tubes there. I know OMC and Volvo both had them that way for a while. If you can then remove the other tubes and plug the holes. The exhaust leaking may be creating a vacum in the manifolds pulling the water back in.(just a guess)

[Tony]

Damn Tony, I am sorry it is giving you trouble. What is the that on the head between 1 and 3? I plug or something. Is that holding the manifold out on the bottom?

.

Now that you pointed that out I had the spacer in there ass backwards and that plug was probbaly the culprit.

The water dumps into the risers at the very end where it takes a jump down in O.D. which is why I cant belive the cam alone would be reverting water.

[Ratickle]

I looked at those pics up close last night and did not spot that the v in the spacer did not line up with the v in the gasket.

Duh

Nice catch Jim......:)

[Airpacker]

Tony. if you still have it all apart, hook the hose to the manifold inlet adn plug the outlet. Leave it sitting under full garden hose pressure for a while and check for leaks. Repeat on all four. Do the same with the risers.

As for the exhaust leak,I'm with Jim, the pipe plug in the head is interfering with the spacer.

[MERPerformance]

I wish my troubleshooting on the problem I had was as simple as that, I'll trade you even up now. TOP GUN COOLING PROBLEM

[Ratickle]

One thing, two of you said an exhaust leak will cause water reversion because it draws a vacuum.

Correct????

And just a small leak will do that ????

[MERPerformance]

One thing, two of you said an exhaust leak will cause water reversion because it draws a vacuum.

Correct????

And just a small leak will do that ????

Those exhaust will draw water with any exhaust leak. If it's at the manifold and tail ,I believe 3&5 would have water If it's leaking at the manifold port the velocity is going to be higher pulling the water in to those two cylinders that are leaking, thoughts coming from intake port design and flow.

[MERPerformance]

Thought you said water was on cylinders 1&3 sorry, anyways if the port is leaking the velocity will be higher than at the manifold / tailpipe, they do want you to use hi temp sealer at those areas.

[inbetween]

I looked at those pics up close last night and did not spot that the v in the spacer did not line up with the v in the gasket.

Duh

Nice catch Jim......:)

Yea what he said...

[phragle]

I say pull em', toss em' and go twin turbines..stop wussing around. with the wedding comming up, just tell Donzi's family your registerd with Aruda...

[fbc25el]

Could the water be from condesation from the exaust not geting hot enough?

[Chris]

I'd definitely say the plug was a problem- I've had that same thing happen to me so don't feel bad.

On the water, I find it hard to believe that it's reversion. Those tails are not only sill-long, they drop at a 45 deg angle. I would screw some fittings into each of those manifolds and pressure test them before you destroy a motor. The SM's are welded, not cast. One leaking weld...

[Tony]

The plug was the issue, the exhaust leak is sealed. I ran the boat for an hour on the hose and pulled off both risers, there was water laying in the bottom of both exhaust manifods and droplets scattered all over the insides of both manifolds and risers and no exhaust leaks on either side. I find it hard to belive that both manifolds could have bad welds and I would say that natural reversion is totally out of the question.


If the intake manifold was leaking water into the cylinders wouldnt the engine barely run, or at least run like ****?

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I am thinking it is less reversion and more likely the manifold, tail piece or head. Pressure check manifold, you can do that with it in place. Pull spark plugs and flow water through motor and check for water leaking in manifolds or out plug holes. I would think if it was the intake you would have water in your oil too. One cylinder with a water leak can spread it across the intake to both sides.

Flow water through static motor and look at everything.

[Chris]

Water isn't going to leak from your cooling jackets into the intake tract of the manifold. When the intake leaks, it's almost always in ther back and it leaks into the crankcase. The cam that it would take to revert at idle and get water up tails that long would be a very radical solid roller with HUGE overlap- wouldn't idle under 1200 and would still be dropping cylinders up to 3K.

[Tony]

OK, I pulled all 4 manifolds and risers off the boat and pressure tested each manifold with a 65psi load of air for about 5 minutes, all 4 were fine. I then hooked up the risers to the well spigot at work which has fairly high pressure, I held the risers straight up and down so it would be impossible for water to enter into the exhaust tube uless it was leaking. All 4 risers were fine.

Last night I pulled the dipstick tube and there where no signs of water in the oil. Would running at idle on the hose for an hour even show much signs of water in the oil if the intake manifold was leaking? Also If I was sucking water into the cylinders wouldnt the engine idle like ****? Its running super smooth idleing around 850 rpm.

One thing I noticed while testing the risers is that the outsides almost instantly turned wet with condensation when I turned the water on. So with the engine running would warm/hot exhaust air flowing through the inside of the exhaust create massive amounts of condensation inside the system?

[Ratickle]

This is a question for the pros;

Wouldn't the plugs show white/? color if any water at all was getting back to the cylinder as would happen with reversion, or a leak??

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Yes, some not sure about massive. That is why Gils have diffuser rings and the 496 have tabulators. They catch the dripping condensation and it evaporates off before falling in the engine. People often remove them looking for performance.

It seemed like yours was excessive from the pix. I don't know does your exhaust offer rings for condensation? I would call them. I think it is more a northern problem the water here is 85*

Flappers will help to keep from pulling some of it back.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Here is the gil if you are not familiar with it.

http://www.mercruiserparts.com/Show_Pictures3.asp?dnbr=853984R%201&ivar=images/CRUISER/853984.R1/10.png&inbr=2450&bnbr=10&bdesc=EXHAUST+MANIFOLD%2FELBOW

[Tony]

There are flappers inside the Hardin tips and a small anti reversion tab inside the tube just past the elbow.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Did they same people make your tail pieces as your exhaust? The gil rings are probably about 3/16 or 1/4 in lip. Pretty significant. I would call the exhaust company and ask for their suggestion. Can you take a pic of the inside of the elbows are they still off? If they are on don't bother. Were the heads ported? did you flow water through the motor and check for leaks? That may be the first thing the exhaust guys ask.

I feel for ya.

[Tony]

Yes, SM made the risers, risers are still off so Il snap a pic of them later tonight. One thing I noticed when I removed the risers right after running the engine is that there were water dropplets all over the inside of the elbow and down into the flange like the water had been blasting out of the heads with the exhaust air.

[Chris]

Yes, SM made the risers, risers are still off so Il snap a pic of them later tonight. One thing I noticed when I removed the risers right after running the engine is that there were water dropplets all over the inside of the elbow and down into the flange like the water had been blasting out of the heads with the exhaust air.

That's your next step. Fill the block up, plug all the openings and pressurize. Use a regulator- don't go over 25-30 psi.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Are the tail pieces dry on the other motor?

[Tony]

I pulled all the plugs and the #5 and #6 plugs were wet. I filled the engine with water and put 30 psi of air on it for over an hour and it didnt loose any pressure. Then I dumped the pressure and put tape pover the spark plug holes and cranked the motor. the 5 and 6 plugs had tiny amounts of moisture on the tape...

I ran the oposite motor and the end result was dry manifolds and dry risers, however one side was running about 30 degrees hotter than the other........

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I don't know what 5 and 6 have in common. Which two are connected by exhaust cross over in manifold? Sorry, Nothing else immediately comes to mind to check. I will have to sleep on it.

The temp variation on a hose is normal on the other side. It should be close even in the water.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I am not sure why Chris suggested pressure checking with water in it. I have always pressure checked things dry. I guess it is to see the leak.

[Chris]

Doing it wet does two things. First, water leaves water behind when little bits seep out. Air blows away. Second, you still have a little bit of air in there and if you're losing pressure, that small volume of air causes the pressure to drop quickly. If the whole thing is full of air, it takes longer for the gauge to move.

[Chris]

Small block heads are notorious for cracks between the intake and exhaust seats. The water jacket is very close to ther seat.

[Chris]

I don't know what 5 and 6 have in common. Which two are connected by exhaust cross over in manifold? Sorry, Nothing else immediately comes to mind to check. I will have to sleep on it.

The temp variation on a hose is normal on the other side. It should be close even in the water.

5 & 6 are on opposite banks. Chevy is 1,3,5,7;2,4,6,8. Ford is 1,2,3,4;5,6,7,8.

[Tony]

Thats what floored me, why 5 and 6?? Tomorrow Im gonna back off the rocker nuts and leakdown the cylinders.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

5 & 6 are on opposite banks. Chevy is 1,3,5,7;2,4,6,8. Ford is 1,2,3,4;5,6,7,8.

Thanks for previous explanation. I know the are opposite. I was wondering which two cylinders join in the intake for the exhaust cross over. I don't know if his heads are blocked or have that provision. But it could be one leak crossing if they are the joining cylinders. Its probably 3-6 or4-5 though.

[fbc25el]

I chased the same problem with water in exaust. I found out in my case that on the hose the exaust would not get hot enough to burn off the condensation. After i ran the boat on the lake no condensation.

[Geronimo36]

Thats what floored me, why 5 and 6??

5 and 6 have a straight shot down when you look into the manifold.

Are you sure the tailpipe is sealed to the exhaust manifold? In addition to the gasket, Stainless Marine also also supplies you with a high-temp black RTV to put on there, it seals very well.

I once worked on a triple engine 45' sonic where due to an exhaust leak at the manifold/tailpipe joint on the center engine it reverted water back into the manifold. Those tailpipes were almost 5 ft long before the water entered the pipe. It was a humbling experience because I didn't think the water could revert back that far from an exhaust leak. So nowadays I don't rule anything out!

[Chris]

There's no water in the SM junction. It bypasses the connection with a hose.

Leakdown may not tell you what you're looking for- especially if your cracks are on the backside of the exhaust valve seat and in the bowl. You need to pressure test the cooling jackets.

[FULL FORCE]

The heads are new.... right?
sure it's not condensation?

Pretty much seems like every other possibility was covered..

[Tony]

Are you sure the tailpipe is sealed to the exhaust manifold? In addition to the gasket, Stainless Marine also also supplies you with a high-temp black RTV to put on there, it seals very well.
Yes, I used the silicone



You need to pressure test the cooling jackets.

Did that last night, plugged off one of the exhaust manfold riser lines and stuffed a pressure testing manifold in the other. I then ran the hose until water was ****ing water 20 ft. out of the test rig, shut the valve on the rig and let the water hose pressure build up about 15 psi on the guage, then shut off the valve at the sea strainer, then added 10psi of air on top of that. It held 25 psi on the guage and 30 psi on my dash guage for well over an hour. The thermostats are drilled and the mechanical water line going to the dash guage comes off the back of the intake manifold by the distributor. I even opened both remote block drains and both remote cooler drains and let water p!ss out of them, I know the entire water jacket was full of water and evenly pressureized.

[erierunnin]

3 more days, get er fixed :eek:

[FULL FORCE]

Hmmm.. this is a tuff one...I am having a hard time coming up with suggestions...

[Geronimo36]

There's no water in the SM junction. It bypasses the connection with a hose..

Chris, the associated exhaust/air leak if the junction isn't properly sealed will cause reversion, believe me.

[Ratickle]

When we're done with this, the reversion issue caused by leaks is intriguing me.....

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

After the cooling pressure test I think its time to look back at the tailpieces and flappers. If it was just condensation I would expect both motors to show signs. I few drips is one thing . With puddles something must be different. Are all tailpieces the same? Can you swap them. Are the flappers closing on that side? Like Geronimo mentioned 5 and 6 have in common the bottom edge of the tail pieces points right at them. I have seen water dance up hill before with help of harmonic vibrations. Even as I watched it I couldn't believe it.

Just for conversation when an exhaust has a water leak it will, depending on how bad, promptly develop a miss at idle. If you let it go on its own it will drop the cylinder then another. If you advance the throttle to about 2500 it will clear it self out and run smooth again as if it was flooded with fuel.

If after you have checked everything you can check you could ramp it, put a load on it, build some temp, and see if it will idle with out developing a miss. One guy did mention his problem went away after it got warmed up. I personally like to know everything is perfect but, I would ramp it before I disassembled anything further than you have. If it will idle indefinitely once warmed idling in gear on the trailer take it for a ride.

[Tony]

Did a compression test tonight for chits and giggles, 195 on all 8. looking back at the dry joint I didnt use a lot of silicone, basically enough to hold the gaskets in place. At this point Im guessing the culprit is less than a 100% seal at the dry joint, condensation with hose water, or a combination of the two. Im gonna put it back together with a liberal amount of silicone on both sides of the gasket and take it to the ramp.

[FULL FORCE]

Did a compression test tonight for chits and giggles, 195 on all 8. looking back at the dry joint I didnt use a lot of silicone, basically enough to hold the gaskets in place. At this point Im guessing the culprit is less than a 100% seal at the dry joint, condensation with hose water, or a combination of the two. Im gonna put it back together with a liberal amount of silicone on both sides of the gasket and take it to the ramp.

Hope all goes OK so you can finally use the boat!

[erierunnin]

Hope all goes OK so you can finally use the boat!

Same, good luck Tony, let's see her this weekend :lurk5:

[Ratickle]

Did a compression test tonight for chits and giggles, 195 on all 8. looking back at the dry joint I didnt use a lot of silicone, basically enough to hold the gaskets in place. At this point Im guessing the culprit is less than a 100% seal at the dry joint, condensation with hose water, or a combination of the two. Im gonna put it back together with a liberal amount of silicone on both sides of the gasket and take it to the ramp.

Take a spotter, leave the hatch off, good luck.

[Geronimo36]

Good luck with everything!!!

One last thing. I've found on the Stainless Marine's it's critical to make sure both mating surfaces are flat before tighening the v-clamp. If the end of the pipe is too high or too low it wont seal properly, no matter how much you tighten the v-clamp. That is one of my only complaints about the SM system.

When putting the pipes on for the first time I like to mock it up without the gasket and verify the flange on the pipe is level with the flange on the manifold. Again, if they're not flat you're going to have a hard time getting them to seal properly from what I've experienced, especially if you're running full length pipes thru the transom. On boats where you're connecting the pipe to a rubber hose you'll have some extra play but before tighening the v-clamp make sure it's all plumb.

[ChiefApache]

Tony, good luck!!! Our fingers, toes and whatever else we can cross are crossed hoping for good news.

[Tony]

I thought I would breifly touch back on this for anyone who may happen to stumble across this thread while searching for solutions to a similar problem.

On the SM reversion issue: It appears that the culprit was a combination of condensation from cold well water and possibly less than a 100% seal at the riser manifold dry joint. I ran the boat in the water and later removed the risers and found condensation on the top half of the pipe in the elbow, everything else was dry.

The riser to manifold jumper hoses are slightly kinked which may or may not be why water isnt filling the top half of the jacket at the elbow.

[DAREDEVIL]

I thought I would breifly touch back on this for anyone who may happen to stumble across this thread while searching for solutions to a similar problem.

On the SM reversion issue: It appears that the culprit was a combination of condensation from cold well water and possibly less than a 100% seal at the riser manifold dry joint. I ran the boat in the water and later removed the risers and found condensation on the top half of the pipe in the elbow, everything else was dry.

The riser to manifold jumper hoses are slightly kinked which may or may not be why water isnt filling the top half of the jacket at the elbow.

The water press. should fill it either way kinked or not. unless u have it plumed wrong.
Do u have a picture ???
Call Brownie @ SM ,,,he is always helping where he can.
I never had a problem with SM .

[Geronimo36]

Glad you got it figured out!!

With the condensation, check it after you run...it might develop only when you're idling and everything cools down. As far as the kink, try to cut the hoses a little shorter to help out with the radius of the turn because at idle the low pressure could limit some water flow. If you need new hoses you can get them at most automotive stores, call SM for the part number... It's just a molded hose for a car..

With the engines at idle i'd also feel around the tailpipe for hot-spots. If you don't have any hot spots the pressure isn't an issue.

If for some reason you have hot spots it could be a few different things. One could be lack of water pressure from your raw water pump. Or even possibly the tails having a manufacturing defect where the inner/outer jackets are touching. This tends to happen a lot on brands X, Y and Z header tubes....

I recently saw this happening on a few EMI systems. EMI covered my buddies cost for replacing the tails. They actually discolored pretty badly and had a spot on the inside of the pipe form where they were touching.

I kinda doubt this is an issue for you but it's worth checking.

[Tony]

I used a taller brass fitting instead of the plastic fittings supplied with the exhaust. Its quite a sharp bend, even with shortened hoses. The tops of the ebows are hot to the touch at 750 rpm, at 1k they are instantly cold. So I know there is restriction at the jumpers. I'l change them in the near future.

[Geronimo36]

The plastic fittings are used due to dissimilar metals, they used to use stainless. Over the years SM has done testing and concluded that they are the best to use.