Milky oil, Headgasket?

[PARADOX]

I got some milky oil. I thought it as one of the headers.
Could be a head gasket ?
How can one tell if the head gasket is leaking? Where else could water get into the oil?

I feel dumb.. but what the hell.. I got to figure this out. :03:

[insanity]

Take the spark plugs out and pressurize the water system with a garden hose clamped into your water intake hose. Plug the hoses to the exhaust manifolds/risers so you take the risers out of the equation, at least for the first test. If its a head gasket between a water passage and a cylinder, you'll get water coming out of one of the cylinders. Just watch your water pressure gauge and cut the hose off once you get about 20-30 lbs. If you have a leak in the block somewhere, you'll hear the water burbling and gurgling. If you don't find it that way and it holds pressure, then it probably is in the exhaust somewhere.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

It can get in through exhaust. Head gasket, intake gaskets.

[Chris]

Intake gaskets are a much more common culprit. When a head gasket goes, you're usually losing cylinder pressure. The only oil passing thri the head gasket is through the returns. Not a likely place to have a failure- they're at very little pressure

[PARADOX]

Two cylinders have no pressure. :(
The rest are ok. I was hoping it's the header, but I just tested it. No leaks into the ports. So it's got to be somethng else. Headers would be the easiest to fix, but I'm sure I have to change head or intake gaskets and two cylinders. If I can do it, I play with it but if I have to pay to get it done.?.... it's not worth it. I was hoping for a "sticky valve" for lack of pressure.. and a leaky header. It's more.

[insanity]

Did you do a compression test to find the leaky cylinders? Which cylinders were they?

[PARADOX]

Don't know the numbers top of my head. Two inner cylinders on the right, looking at the front of the motors. Cyl close to me on right (no 1?) good. next, bad, next bad. last Forth on the right. OK. (I look at the numbers in the AM they on the block (350 V-8)
Did a compression test.

[Ratickle]

Here you go...

[Ratickle]

Anyway, first thought could be head gasket. Hope you're that lucky.....

[insanity]

Sounds like its time for brain (head) surgery :D Take pics, be interested to see what you find when the head comes off.

[PARADOX]

THanks.. OK then.. No 3 and 5 are shot. no comp.
I have no idea how to do a head gasket replacement. I will just start unbolting anything thats not welded.
Any quick short version lessons?

[Chris]

WAIT!! Before you start unbolting, get a leakdown tester and check each cylinder's condition. Once disassembled, this opportunity is lost. Why do the heads to find out you have a broken ring or something else wrong. The leakdown will tell you what shape the other cylinders are in and will help you determine what's wrong with your bad one's. If it's a valve, you'll have air noise in the carb or exhaust. If it's a ring, you'll hear it from the breather. If it's a head gasket, you may hear it in the breather or in a water jacket.

Having said that, you most likely have a gasket failure between the cylinders. That's most likely going to necessitate a complete disassembly and surfacing of the block's decks.

[PARADOX]

No worries.. No work in the dark. But that's sounds waaaaay more stuff I want to do.
I can go buy a leak down tester. But resurfacing? pheewww.. I hope not.
What I'm really worry about is setting the valve lash back to specs. I can handle pretty much anything taking it apart. Getting it back together, I always have left over parts but somehow I do manage to get things running.
I always wonder why some parts needed when whatever I work on runs with out them. :)

[old377guy]

same problem last season; pinhole in head combustion chamber. good luck

[Geronimo36]

What ever it is you want to get on it quick before the rust sets in... Come up with a game plan and knock it out expedentially so you can get it running again and burn off any remaining moisture... If you leave water in the cyliner long enough your rings will freeze up and/or pit the cylinders..

I don't mean to scare you but now is you're chance to catch this before it costs you any more.

[PARADOX]

THanks Ger... I always check the oil every time I take the boat out. I noticed it was milky soon. changed oil, flushed it.. changed it again. removed valve covers.. flushed,, added oil again.. started the motor for a few seconds. added oil.. so I think I cought it in time.. went through 3 gal of oil,, but I think the inside should be ok. (I hope)..

[insanity]

Is this motor in your Avanti or another boat?

[Geronimo36]

THanks Ger... I always check the oil every time I take the boat out. I noticed it was milky soon. changed oil, flushed it.. changed it again. removed valve covers.. flushed,, added oil again.. started the motor for a few seconds. added oil.. so I think I cought it in time.. went through 3 gal of oil,, but I think the inside should be ok. (I hope)..

When you found those two cylinders dead was there any water on the plugs?

Hopefully it's a head gasket and the combustion pressure is forcing the water into the lifter valley instead of the cylinder.

I'm curious what it turns out to be.

[PARADOX]

Is this motor in your Avanti or another boat?

The Avanti is great, no problems. These are in my Ole' Formula. The motors are early 90's Merc. 350 mag.

Ger.... It seemd hat there was some water in the cylinders and in the exhaust ports.

[Geronimo36]

Ger.... It seemd hat there was some water in the cylinders and in the exhaust ports.

I'd get the cylinders filled up with CRC or some tranny fluid before the rings seize.

Ahh, it's a small-block..... I'm gonna guess rotted head gasket or fatigued head.

[PARADOX]

DId the water pressure test. Water coming out of No. 5 spark plug hole.
Didn't see any water in the valve area. Didn't see any water in the exhust ports or by the outdrive.
Now what ??

[Geronimo36]

The exhaust port is higher than the spark plug hole so that's why you don't see water.

Getting that head off would be my first course of action so you know what you're dealing with.. Then I would get all the water out of the cylinders and pour CRC or ATF in all the cylinder bores and wipe down the deck surface of the block. Then get a plastic bag and lay it over top of all the oil covered surfaces so the bag can stick to it and keep any moisture out. That will keep the engine safe so you can move on to the next thing which is a head gasket or heads.

If you're lucky it's just a head gasket and you can replace it. Otherwise you'll need a new head. If one head is bad I'd recommend buying a set and have the local machine shop set up the valvetrain. If one head rotted thru the other one isn't far behind.

Good thing for you it is a small block so stuff is cheap!! If you want to buy used stuff get some passenger car/truck heads but I wouldn't buy anything that was used in marine. We have a local NAPA machine shop that was able to get me some small block stuff.

That's where I'd start.

[insanity]

...and get any water that may have made its way down into the pan during your water pressure test out. I went through this a couple weeks ago, dumped a couple gallons of kerosene through the lifter valley and flushed it out with a drill primer. Then repeated with the cheapest oil I could find until I got most of the water out.

[PARADOX]

SHould I put the plug back in No. 5? and do the water pressure again? See if water comes out at the exhust ports?
I tried to buy a leak down tester. Two stores had no clue. WIll try Napa later this PM.
I might able to rig the compressor tester fittings if I have no luck.
THis is gonna be interesting. I know I'm over my head,, but it's a challange now.

[insanity]

You should be able to use the compression tester fitting, you just need to pull the shrader valve out of it (if that's the kind you have) and hook it to your air supply, preferably with a valve so you can control the air. Make sure that when you are doing leak-down or even the water pressure test both valves are closed, in both cylinders if possible.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/OTC-5609/ - If worst comes to worst you can get one from Summit, or probaby a local speed shop if the auto parts stores don't have one.

[PARADOX]

I might have to rig the comp tester. I already tested it and I can get air through one. THe other has the valve and I don't want to take the good one apart.
Napa didn't have a clue either, they were trying to sell me some liquid chit.
OK back in the bilge we go.

[Chris]

At this point, leakdown is meaningless- unless you want to find out if the rest of the engine is in need of rebuild. Go for getting air pressure into the cylinders thru the compression tester. All you have to do is unscrew the tire valve core they yse to hold pressure in the head.

[Geronimo36]

At this point, leakdown is meaningless- unless you want to find out if the rest of the engine is in need of rebuild.

I agree, it's time to break out the toolbox. :(

If you ran water thru the engine and it ****ed out the spark-plug hole there's really no test to figure out what the problem is, it's time to dig.

[Chris]

Just disassemble slowly and carefully. Sometimes it's easy to destroy the evidence of what your problem is. Especially with gaskets.

One thing that's definitely going to be helpful is a large machinist's straightedge. That and a flashlight will tell you alot about the block's deck condition.

[Quinlan]

Hopefully it not like mine with a hole in the piston and the exhaust valve beat the chit out of things.
Good luck.

[PARADOX]

OK.. motor turns freely, so it's not seased up. Trans fluid and oil everywhere I could get it. Now.. PLease confirmm this, I never got into the guy=ts of these thngs.
I have to remove the carb and that damn big intake manifold under the carb to remove the heads to replace the gaskets. DO I have to remove the timing shaft? Lifters, rocker arms are off. The how do I take off the "springs' above the valves, under the rocker arms.. ?
This is a project for sure. GGGRRrrrrrrrr

[Chris]

You don't need to remove the valves. Not yet anyway. Pull the accessories and the intake/exhaust manifolds. Then remove the head bolts and pull the head off. Take care to not damage the gasket. You're going to want to look at it closely as well as the gasket surfaces on the head and block. You should be able to see where the leak occurred. Once off you can send the heads to a good machine shop for pressure testing and you should really do a valve job while you're there. They'll resurface the head do make sure the gasket surface is flat. You're going to have to clean up the block and check it in the boat. Start with a gasket scraper or some single-edge razor blades. Get rags into the cylinders to keep crap out of the bores. Then use either a machinist's straighedge or a parallel at least 6 to 8" long and run if over the cleaned up deck. Look for areas where light shines under it- you're looking for high and low spots. I have one 18" long and another 2'. You can see the surface irregularities and know if the block need surfaced. The most common area of failure is that narrow spot between the cylinders. If it leaked there, you're most likely looking at a full rebuild- typically when they leak at that spot, you get erosion that must be machined out- and you have to strip the block to do that.

[Geronimo36]

You probably don't need to remove the carb from the intake. First I would remove the exhaust manifold from the side where you're getting water. Then remove all the accessories, on that side should be the alternator/power steering bracketry. Then remove the block drains and drain all the water out of the block. Then remove the distributor. Then remove the intake manifold and to get it of by wedging a pry bar in the front of the intake between the block/intake. . After that lay some rags down inside the lifter valley area to stop any debris from falling into the engine. Next remove the valve cover and remove all the rocker arms/pushrods (leave the lifters in)(you say you did this already?) , then remove all the head bolts. Don't worry about removing the valvesprings, let the machine shop take care of it. Next, take the butt end of a pry bar and stick it in one of the intake runners on the head, put one hand on the side of the head and pry upwards with the pry bar, this will break the head free from the block. When you're pulling the head off do it slowly so you can see the gasket or any pieces that might fall out or into the cylinder bores.

If you find out you have a bad head and it's not the gasket, tear down the other side. I like to keep everything together before tearing into it as long as I can.

You will also need to pay close attention to your headbolts, they rot away and that could also be what cause the gasket to fail. If it blew between the cylinders check for flatness and if it's flat you're ok but you need to lightly sand that area before re-assembly. I'd also recommend either a MLS gasket made by felpro or cometic or the regular felpro marine top-end gasket set (comes with head gaskets, intake gaskets etc).

[Chris]

My experience with the Cometic is that it likes a flat surface and seals much better than anything else in high-stress applications. But on used surfaces, the FelPro works better. But you HAVE to follow the retorque procedures.

[Geronimo36]

definitely needs a higher RA

[PARADOX]

After some major exploratory surgery the verdict is in. Removed the intake manifold and the heads. The intake manifold gasket were pretty shot, once I took the manifold off, so I can't tell if it leaked or not. THe head gasket was actually missing a peace between No. 3 and 5 cyl. There is a grove on the block as well as on the head between the no.3& 5 Cyl. right in the middle, (smallest wall area.) I guess, due to detonation. I dont know how to fix that unless it's welded and grinded off. Worse part. No. 3 cyl actually missing a small chunk at the side and I can see the ring. Walls are good but the cyl. is shot. To replace the cyl. I have to take the engine out, and once I do that, I'm not putting this anchor back in.
Anyone have a spare 454 Mag or 350 Mag laying around?
Time for a drink.. but I quit drinking and THAT'S THE WORSE PART.!!!

[Expensive Date]

SHould I put the plug back in No. 5? and do the water pressure again? See if water comes out at the exhust ports?
I tried to buy a leak down tester. Two stores had no clue. WIll try Napa later this PM.
I might able to rig the compressor tester fittings if I have no luck.
THis is gonna be interesting. I know I'm over my head,, but it's a challange now.


I can have one there Friday are you in Florida now?

[Expensive Date]

Disregard should have read the whole thread first

[Ratickle]

Doesn't that boat have twin small blocks?

[PARADOX]

Doesn't that boat have twin small blocks?
Yes it does, but I wouldn't mind taking the one good small block out and put it into the Infinity. Take the 454 from the Infinity buy a used 454 and put both into the Formula.. Just a thought, or just try to replace the f'up up small block. I don't think this troubled small block is worth fixing. Now it comes down to mathamatics and practicality.

[Geronimo36]

Worse part. No. 3 cyl actually missing a small chunk at the side and I can see the ring. Walls are good but the cyl. is shot. To replace the cyl. I have to take the engine out, and once I do that, I'm not putting this anchor back in.
Anyone have a spare 454 Mag or 350 Mag laying around?
Time for a drink.. but I quit drinking and THAT'S THE WORSE PART.!!!

Good plan and a used 350 mag is on the "cheaper" side! You can even get a reman long-block pretty cheap. If you can get a complete engine for the right price that's best in my opinion.

When you put a new engine in be sure to do a thorough diagnosis of the fuel system ahead of the new engine. The piece missing from the piston and the head gasket is from lean/detonation.

Sorry for your loss... :(

[Chris]

Yes it does, but I wouldn't mind taking the one good small block out and put it into the Infinity. Take the 454 from the Infinity buy a used 454 and put both into the Formula.. Just a thought, or just try to replace the f'up up small block. I don't think this troubled small block is worth fixing. Now it comes down to mathamatics and practicality.


If you're anything like me you'll have yourself talked into a blown 572 and a six drive by the weekend. ;)

[Knot 4 Me]

There is a set of 496's in the classifieds. I'm just saying... :driving:

[Ratickle]

If you're anything like me you'll have yourself talked into a blown 572 and a six drive by the weekend. ;)

But then he'd run in circles with the smallblock on the other side......:sifone: