PDA

View Full Version : Handgun for a friend question



X-Rated30
07-04-2009, 10:43 AM
I have a female friend that wants a handgun. I am getting her to take a CCW class, not for the CCW, but for the safety aspects.

Here is the dilema: She has rhumatoid arthritis and can't comfortably pull a double action trigger. I also have reservations about her carrying a Glock type trigger loose in her purse. Suggestions?

fund razor
07-04-2009, 10:55 AM
I am sure that some of our more knowledgeable gun guys will have an idea about some models that may fit the bill. But while we wait for them, here is something that came to mind:

We have a family-owned gun shop and range here in town. They will let you try out popular models on the range before purchase. They will also rent guns for like 5 bucks.
If you can find a situation like this... she can try some out to make sure that the overall design geometry works with her hand, and that the amount of trigger pull is ok for her.

X-Rated30
07-04-2009, 11:40 AM
Yeah - we went shooting yesterday and thats how it came up. I was hoping someone knew of a DA/SA revolver or auto with a light trigger pull or some other solution.

Ratickle
07-04-2009, 12:24 PM
Yeah - we went shooting yesterday and thats how it came up. I was hoping someone knew of a DA/SA revolver or auto with a light trigger pull or some other solution.

You can always modify trigger pull to where it is way too light even. At what point does safety become a concern is something some of our gun experts will have to answer.

I'm thinking one of the smaller, .380's, modified. But, you also have the issue with cocking thew first round into the chamber. At least I never carry with one in the chamber.

Tony
07-04-2009, 03:00 PM
642 S&W with the concealed hammer. Reccoil is managable the pistol itself is ultra concealable and it will fire in SA or DA mode, revolvers almost never fail to go bang when you pull the trigger and theres no chance of having to clear a jam in a life threatening situation.

Chris
07-04-2009, 04:31 PM
If you have to have an auto, I'd look at the SIG P230 in 380ACP. Not as powerful as 9mm but with the right ammo it's definitely a good argument-stopper. (Just ask James Bond) In fact, the 230 is pretty much a Walther PPK copy, with some refinements.

But I'm with Tony- I'd rather see a novice or intermediate shooter with a revolver.

Ratickle
07-04-2009, 04:36 PM
642 S&W with the concealed hammer. Reccoil is managable the pistol itself is ultra concealable and it will fire in SA or DA mode, revolvers almost never fail to go bang when you pull the trigger and theres no chance of having to clear a jam in a life threatening situation.


If you have to have an auto, I'd look at the SIG P230 in 380ACP. Not as powerful as 9mm but with the right ammo it's definitely a good argument-stopper. (Just ask James Bond) In fact, the 230 is pretty much a Walther PPK copy, with some refinements.

But I'm with Tony- I'd rather see a novice or intermediate shooter with a revolver.

Do you guys have any idea what the trigger pull can be modified down to on a DA Revolver? Looking for something for Terri also. I'm not a fan of Autos in the hands of someone who doesn't practice all the time.

Bobcat
07-04-2009, 06:21 PM
with a revolver you do not have to stick around and pick up the casings......:reddevil:

Trim'd Up
07-04-2009, 07:19 PM
Check out the ruger LCR if you can find one. I bought one a while back and it is a great concealed piece that shoots WAY better than it should.

JupiterSunsation
07-04-2009, 08:23 PM
Enjoy your gun rentals now......in FL it has been the new rage in suicides! 6 people in the last month have walked in, rented a gun and shot themselves. One lady shot her 20 year old in the head then killed herself.

I have always thought gun ranges were sketchy places. The first time I went to one was with a neighbor. Range was in a marginal neighborhood, gun fanatics working there (all wearing side arms) and it was just before closing time. Two hoodrats walked in and everyone simutaneously unbuckled the holsters or placed guns within reach. Hoodrats browsed for a minute and left.

I was more worried about the crossfire than the actual hoodrats!

X-Rated30
07-04-2009, 08:58 PM
Do you guys have any idea what the trigger pull can be modified down to on a DA Revolver? Looking for something for Terri also. I'm not a fan of Autos in the hands of someone who doesn't practice all the time.

LOL! I was confused! I am looking for one for a friend named Terri!:)

Tony
07-04-2009, 09:12 PM
Do you guys have any idea what the trigger pull can be modified down to on a DA Revolver? Looking for something for Terri also. I'm not a fan of Autos in the hands of someone who doesn't practice all the time.

Theres no reason to modify the trigger if you buy the concealed hammer version, there is actually a hammer to cock with your thumb, its just real small, a slight knurled nub on the back of the pistol. The DAO, "dual action only" or commonly called hammerless versions have a stout and long trigger pull that take some time and frequent practice to master.

fund razor
07-04-2009, 09:27 PM
Enjoy your gun rentals now......in FL it has been the new rage in suicides! 6 people in the last month have walked in, rented a gun and shot themselves. One lady shot her 20 year old in the head then killed herself.

I have always thought gun ranges were sketchy places. The first time I went to one was with a neighbor. Range was in a marginal neighborhood, gun fanatics working there (all wearing side arms) and it was just before closing time. Two hoodrats walked in and everyone simutaneously unbuckled the holsters or placed guns within reach. Hoodrats browsed for a minute and left.

I was more worried about the crossfire than the actual hoodrats!


We had someone commit suicide at the very range that I spoke of. It is not in a bad neighborhood. It is next to the Highway Patrol. It is staffed by professionals, some of the family members in the family business hold marksmanship records. They do carry while working. Nobody "places guns within reach." They maintain absolute custody and control of their weapon.

Nice story though.

Although rentals may go away, trial range sessions with weapons that regular customers are considering should be around, which is fine with me. :)

Chris
07-04-2009, 09:45 PM
My best advice would be this- if you're already working at a disadvantage, you relly should put more effort into evening things up. That would mean professional instruction, regular range time and solid familiarity with equipment and tactics. Then you could safely carry an autoloading handgun in condition 1, cocked and locked.

My own personal belief is that if you're not at a range once a week, you have no business carrying a deadly weapon. Unless you're a very experienced individual, if you're not there, your skills aren't what they need to be.

Using a firearm in a situation where someone is using one against you and the issue is only going to end when one of you is dead is no less stressful or demanding than driving a roadrace car at 230 mph or flying a fighter jet. You'd better have some polished skills to rely on or it's likely to end ugly.

It's your life. Only you can decide how valuable it is to you and how willing you are to preserve it.

Chris
07-04-2009, 09:51 PM
Enjoy your gun rentals now......in FL it has been the new rage in suicides! 6 people in the last month have walked in, rented a gun and shot themselves. One lady shot her 20 year old in the head then killed herself.

I have always thought gun ranges were sketchy places. The first time I went to one was with a neighbor. Range was in a marginal neighborhood, gun fanatics working there (all wearing side arms) and it was just before closing time. Two hoodrats walked in and everyone simutaneously unbuckled the holsters or placed guns within reach. Hoodrats browsed for a minute and left.

I was more worried about the crossfire than the actual hoodrats!

It sounds like they need to regulate Floridians more strictly ;)

A buddy of mine is a long-time shop owner. Had a guy come in and ask to see a 357 magnum. He laid it on the counter, the guy picked it up and ran to the door. Well, my buddy is retired FBI. Follows the guy to the parking lot with his sidearm unholstered. The guy jumps in his car and locks the door. Proceeds to load the gun and blow his brains out with it. My buddy says- "he may have ruined one of my guns, but he did save me a bullet".

ImaPoser
07-04-2009, 09:55 PM
My own personal belief is that if you're not at a range once a week, you have no business carrying a deadly weapon.

+1. Even my 7 & 9 year old kids have a minimum requirement of 100 rounds down range a week.

Chris
07-04-2009, 10:00 PM
I remember reading an interview a few years back with Isaac Stern, the greatest violinist that ever lived. He said he absolutely had to practice several hous every day. He said if he didn't, the next day he could tell. he went on to say that if he skjipped two or three, there were maybe two people on the planet that could tell as well and that if he skipped a week, the audience could tell. And he'd been playing for 60+ myears at that point. If Perlman needs to practice regularly, so do you.

JupiterSunsation
07-04-2009, 10:36 PM
One of the stories lately:

Susan Jacobson

Sentinel Staff Writer

12:20 AM EDT, June 14, 2009
E-mail Print Vote
Another woman shot herself at a Central Florida gun range Saturday in a suicide attempt, authorities said.

The woman rented a handgun and filled out paperwork indicating she had no mental-health problems, wasn't on drugs and had no other conditions or situations to preclude her from shooting safely, said John Ritz, manager of the east Orange County range. Like other customers, she also was read the safety rules.

The shooting happened about 12:30 p.m. at East Orange Shooting Sports on Gardner Street, east of Winter Park. There was a suicide there several years ago.

"It's a horrible, tragic event," Ritz said.

He said he had heard that the woman shot herself in the head but was expected to live.

It was the third self-inflicted shooting at a Central Florida gun range since April 5, when an Altamonte Springs woman killed her son and herself at Shoot Straight in Casselberry. A 26-year-old man committed suicide at the same range on April 27.

In Saturday's incident, the woman, whose name was not released, came in alone, rented a handgun and shot herself. Four staff members and at least five customers were in the building, Ritz said. One employee was working with another customer three feet away at the time, he said.

"Hopefully she will take that as a fact that it wasn't her time and she will evaluate the conditions that made her feel she had no choice," and something positive will come out of it," said Ritz, who wasn't at work during the shooting.

The manager said he is afraid that publicity surrounding such shootings could encourage other desperate people to use gun ranges to kill themselves, particularly in these difficult economic times.

After the third death at Shoot Straight, an attorney for the business said it would no longer rent guns until the state allows ranges to do background checks on customers. Ritz said he would love to stop gun-range suicides.

"I don't know that you or I can stop somebody from doing something destructive to themselves once they have made the decision to do so, whether it's a bridge or prescription medication or a razor knife," he said.

fund razor
07-04-2009, 10:50 PM
I feel like we may have hijacked this a little. Sorry about that X rated. Good luck with the hunt.

Expensive Date
07-04-2009, 10:53 PM
I went to one of those Florida ranges with my kids last year.They rent to any one the other people looked like perps.

Ratickle
07-05-2009, 12:27 AM
I went to one of those Florida ranges with my kids last year.They rent to any one the other people looked like perps.

We've seen you. You're right, you could be a perp.....:)

JupiterSunsation
07-05-2009, 09:31 AM
i feel like we may have hijacked this a little. Sorry about that x rated. Good luck with the hunt.

+1........

Megabyte*3
07-05-2009, 03:03 PM
If you have to have an auto, I'd look at the SIG P230 in 380ACP.

I second the recommendation. I would also recommend trying out a SIG P239 in 9mm. I have used one with a DAK trigger. First shot requires about 8 lbs of pull. Subsequent shots are less than 4 pounds. Very manageable recoil.

The recommendation to carry in condition 1, i.e. cocked & locked is for a traditional 1911 - typically a .45 ACP. That is way too powerful a caliber for hands that suffer from RA.

Keep in mind that recoil will be mitigated by the weight of the gun. The Ruger LCP & LCR, although technical wonders, are very light and transmit a great deal of recoil to the hands. If her knuckles are at all disformed by the RA, then she may have trouble lining up the gun so that recoil impact is directed through the hand & wrist in a straight line to the forearm. In other words, her wrist may be cocked to one side or the other and therefore have to absorb most of the impact.

All that being said, in a close range self defense situation, I doubt she will be concerned about the recoil. Take her to the range and try out a few handguns and calibers. She'll figure out pretty quickly which one(s) she likes.

Tommy Gun
07-05-2009, 03:09 PM
Check out the ruger LCR if you can find one. I bought one a while back and it is a great concealed piece that shoots WAY better than it should.

The LCP is my wife's carry...very nice gun.

2112
07-05-2009, 04:20 PM
I remember reading an interview a few years back with Isaac Stern, the greatest violinist that ever lived. He said he absolutely had to practice several hous every day. He said if he didn't, the next day he could tell. he went on to say that if he skjipped two or three, there were maybe two people on the planet that could tell as well and that if he skipped a week, the audience could tell. And he'd been playing for 60+ myears at that point. If Perlman needs to practice regularly, so do you.


So....which is it Chris? Perlman or Stern? :sifone:

Another Ford/Chevy argument? I will take Perlman. :D
.

2112
07-05-2009, 04:25 PM
If you have to have an auto, I'd look at the SIG P230 in 380ACP. Not as powerful as 9mm but with the right ammo it's definitely a good argument-stopper. (Just ask James Bond) In fact, the 230 is pretty much a Walther PPK copy, with some refinements.


I agree on the Sig. I am very happy with it's performance and fit and finish. Also, Sphinx makes very a nice 9mm and 40 ACP but they are getting Rare. The Pic is a police special, short nose. Both are very reasonable trigger pulls from the factory.

Chris
07-06-2009, 10:51 AM
So....which is it Chris? Perlman or Stern? :sifone:

Another Ford/Chevy argument? I will take Perlman. :D
.

Stern. We saw Perlman last year and I had him in my mind while I was typing that. Even Perlman would pick Stern. :)

ar15meister
07-06-2009, 11:02 AM
Yeah - we went shooting yesterday and thats how it came up. I was hoping someone knew of a DA/SA revolver or auto with a light trigger pull or some other solution.

HK USP 9mm carry version.

single and double action with a decocker.

She can have it safety on with the hammer cocked.

I have done CCW courses but I have never carried in real life scenarios (being Canadian). I dont have the same practical knowledge of alot of these guys IMO. I do like the HK though.

The HK is a very reliable pistol and the 9mm has a bit smaller handgrips than my .45 I think.

Chris
07-06-2009, 11:02 AM
But no argument on handguns. The Sphinx is a really cool piece. It's a CZ pattern handgun, as are so many others. Based on the Czech CZ75- which also was the infamout Bren 10. Jeff Cooper loved the CZ- except for it's limitation of being 9mm.

Made in Switzerland, the Sphinx is commonly referred to as the Rolex of handguns. And they're built with the same precision.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/CTS1489/DSC_0036Small.jpg

Another Swiss CZ copy is the ITM Solothurn. Not nearly the finish as the Sphinx, but definitely a refinement over the fine Czechoslovakian craftsmanship of the CZ.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/CTS1489/DSC_0037Small.jpg

Just don't break them :( Parts are tough.

Dave
07-06-2009, 12:08 PM
I have a female friend that wants a handgun. I am getting her to take a CCW class, not for the CCW, but for the safety aspects.

Here is the dilema: She has rhumatoid arthritis and can't comfortably pull a double action trigger. I also have reservations about her carrying a Glock type trigger loose in her purse. Suggestions?

The question is how bad is the arthritis. Is the weight of the weapon an issue? (the lighter the more recoil) Can she cock a double action revolver? Can she pull the slide on a semi-auto to chamber the first round and cock the pistol? Can she hold the pistol firmly enough to be sure a semi-auto chambers the second round or the recoil doesn't cause her to drop the weapon? You need a reasonable amount of hand strength to handle a hand gun, even a .22. If she is concerned about home defense a 20 ga shotgun might be the ticket. Two hands, and much better control.

Dave

2112
07-06-2009, 03:43 PM
But no argument on handguns. The Sphinx is a really cool piece. It's a CZ pattern handgun, as are so many others. Based on the Czech CZ75- which also was the infamout Bren 10. Jeff Cooper loved the CZ- except for it's limitation of being 9mm..

I agree on the 9mm limitation. I always wanted a Bren 10 but have never even seen one. I settled for Delta Elites. The stainless is a 13 y/o build (needs freshening) the blued is never fired waiting to be hot rodded. Colt, the small block chevy...er...small block Ford of handguns. :D

10mm is incredibly powerful. FMJ will go through a fridge with only a surgical entry and exit. Fridge hardly wiggles. 45ACP puched a 4 inch hole on entry, lodged in the back side and rocked it pretty good.

Never Enuff
07-06-2009, 06:30 PM
One thing Dave said you might keep in mind. It's called "limp wrist". Failure to feed the second round because you are not holding the gun tightly enough. It may be very important if she has problems with her hands and wrist. Make sure she test fires all the guns she is considering. You should also do her a favor and talk to her about carrying a weapon. If she has any doubts she can use it when necessary please don't let her get a gun. Someone will just take it away from her and use her own gun or her. We all say--"hell, I got no problem capping someone". Saying it and acually doing it are two different things. Shooting a paper target is a lot different than looking someone in the eye and pulling the trigger!!!!
Jay

Uncle Dave
07-06-2009, 07:24 PM
I have a female friend that wants a handgun. I am getting her to take a CCW class, not for the CCW, but for the safety aspects.

Here is the dilema: She has rhumatoid arthritis and can't comfortably pull a double action trigger. I also have reservations about her carrying a Glock type trigger loose in her purse. Suggestions?


Ive been down this road a lot.

New shooter, weak hands.

Id go with a small DA/SA combo revolver hands down over an auto.
Much simpler, easier to clean, minimal if any loading issues .

Fumbling with a spring loaded clip with arthritis isnt much easier than holding it with a good hand and racking a slide for an initial shot.

any little autos with a decocker yet?

Go with something like an SP101.
most specifically a 357 so she can practice with manageable and cheap 38 or 38 + p. practice rounds and can keep a "hot set of 357's" ready to go.

She can single action it easily all day long and no worry of limp wrist stove piping.

There are vast numbers of spring and trigger kits for this gun. Heres just one supplier.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=88&t=697914

If you lived in LA Id take you to a range and let you try em.

Uncle Dave

JnT
07-07-2009, 01:32 PM
I carried a Taurus 85 .38 for a few years. Has a few thousand rounds through it and has never given any trouble. Relatively inexpensive and used to be cheap to shoot.
Easy for a beginner to learn with as well.

Chris
07-07-2009, 01:58 PM
I agree on the 9mm limitation. I always wanted a Bren 10 but have never even seen one. I settled for Delta Elites. The stainless is a 13 y/o build (needs freshening) the blued is never fired waiting to be hot rodded. Colt, the small block chevy...er...small block Ford of handguns. :D

10mm is incredibly powerful. FMJ will go through a fridge with only a surgical entry and exit. Fridge hardly wiggles. 45ACP puched a 4 inch hole on entry, lodged in the back side and rocked it pretty good.

All the Bren is now is an interesting collectible. They had major magazine issues and as you can imagine you'd better be a master machinist if you want to shoot it.

The 10mm is notorious for breaking frame parts on autoloading handguns. The Colt's are pretty sturdy, but I've seen a few. Can't say I've ever seen any others hold up. It's not so much of a problem because the ammo is so expensive. Few prople burn several hundred rounds a week at the range.

I have a friend that has an FBI-version HK MP5. It's chambered in 10mm. Compared to the 9mm, it's an anti-aircraft gun. It rock & rolls.

You may have seen this before- pretty good site for CZ and CZ-pattern handguns. I've caught some great deals from here before. http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php

Wardey
07-07-2009, 04:45 PM
I have a Colt 10 mm Delta Elite and love it, but it sits in the safe now due to ammo. Dave

Uncle Dave
07-07-2009, 08:09 PM
If you go to a junkyard you can watch 9mm's bounce of car windows.

10's are awesome, but you are stuck with an auto
40's same thing

Neither are cheap to shoot.
Nor particularly easy to find in rural areas
Both of these things make "getting good" much more money and difficult.

38's loaded into a 357 are easy on recoil-
Easy to find
The only cheaper thing is a 22.

The .357 is as good or better than ANY round of ANY size In terms of measured 1 shot stop effectiveness.

Better than a 45
Equal to a 40
Equal to a 10
Better than even a 44 magnum!

Here is some quick data on relative stopping power.
Much more is available with a tiny bit of googling.


.45 auto
Load vel. energy penetr F.Dia. One-stop
230gr Hyd-shok 850 349 12 0.78 94%
230gr Goldsabr 875 391 14 0.75 93%
Corbon 185grJHP 1150 544 11.3 0.70 92%

.40 auto
Corbon135gJHP 1300 507 9.8 0.56 96%
Fedrl 155grJHP 1140 448 12 0.65 94%
165gr Goldsabr 1150 485 12 0.68 94%

.357magnum
Fedrl 125grJHP 1450 584 12 0.65 96%
Fedrl 110grJHP 1295 410 10 0.40 90%
125gr GoldSabr 1220 413 13 0.60 84%

9mm auto
Corbon115grJHP+P 1350 466 14 0.55 91%
Rem.124grGoldSabr+P 1180 384 12 0.65 83%
Win 115grSiltip 1225 383 8 0.72 83%

.38special
Corbon115gr JHP+P 1250 399 15 0.58 83%
Win158grSWCHP+P 890 278 15 0.62 78%
Fedrl 125grJHP+P 945 248 12 0.69 73%

.44mag
Win210grSilvertip 1250 729 15 0.66 90%
Corbon180gUrban 1200 576 15 0.70 90%

http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/calloadgoshin.htm

I still say a relatively small revolver with a spring kit that can use different loads is a better first weapon, and learning tool than ANY automatic.

Im not anti automatic in ANY way and own the following.

Ruger P90 45
Browning 9MM Hi power
Glock 9 (hate it)
AMT "hardballer" long slide 45


I own the following revolvers

Colt python 357
Ruger security 6 357
Ruger SP-101
S&W 22
S&W 686 357



UD

X-Rated30
07-10-2009, 05:15 PM
For an auto, how about the springfield XD9 sub compact? I have shot the .40 subcompact and was TOTALLY impressed by the lack of recoil. The 9 also has the double spring system, so I can only imagine how soft its recoil must be. In addition, it has the trigger safety, but also has the backstrap safety. The trigger pull is very managable as well. I have never heard anything bad about them - all good things. Any opinions?

Chris
07-11-2009, 08:27 AM
Another option is a Taser. As has been said, a weapon you can't effectively use is more of a detriment than a benefit. And ANYONE can use a Taser.

MarylandMark
07-11-2009, 11:06 AM
Another option is a Taser. As has been said, a weapon you can't effectively use is more of a detriment than a benefit. And ANYONE can use a Taser.

I was thinking the same thing for the GF. Plus if I mess up I'm not sure I want some thing that can out holes in me laying around

Ratickle
07-11-2009, 11:11 AM
Another option is a Taser. As has been said, a weapon you can't effectively use is more of a detriment than a benefit. And ANYONE can use a Taser.

And ask Bill how well they work.... (45Sonic) :sifone: :rofl: :sifone:

MarylandMark
07-11-2009, 11:21 AM
And ask Bill how well they work.... (45Sonic) :sifone: :rofl: :sifone:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Chris
07-11-2009, 01:21 PM
I'm reasonably impervious to most things and I think I'd have preferred to have been shot. It sucks the will to continue out of you like a giant harda$$ vacuum cleaner.

X-Rated30
07-11-2009, 01:45 PM
Actually, we are drinking buddies and we drink WAY too much for someone in our group to own a taser. We would be testing that **** on each other and comparing how much alcohol we need to drink before we agree to have it done to us.:willy_nilly:

Also, Ammo is $25 a cartridge if we get it through our local Sheriff.

Funny thing... I was talking to some female baliffs and ALL of them agreed getting shot with the Taser wasn't that bad. LEOs that carry a taser have to experience it or they can't carry one. Every big burly macho dude I have ever talked to about the experience agreed with Chris. Keep in mind, these are court support women - not the rough and tumble dykes that wanna crack heads in the streets, but motherly types. Some were grandmothers. Maybe child birth really is that bad, LOL!:sifone:

X-Rated30
07-11-2009, 01:46 PM
Now back to the XD9 sub - what do you think?

Chris
07-12-2009, 08:58 AM
Some people have had good luck with the S/A handguns. I have not. Personally, I would consider carrying only one brand of handgun if it were being used to protect my life- HK.

Uncle Dave
07-12-2009, 01:15 PM
Some people have had good luck with the S/A handguns. I have not. Personally, I would consider carrying only one brand of handgun if it were being used to protect my life- HK.


I dont know of any modern revolvers that are S/A only (unless someone bobs a hammer)

What single action only weapon did you have a problem with?

I ask because out of curiosity because I have problems with all kinds of weapons across the gamut of sizes and actions.

some automatics Ive had issues with-

Walther PPK - yes the famous Walther PPK is PP of ****e
AMT - Hardballer ridiculous operationally but very cool.

The revolver that gives me most fits is a Chrome S&W 686 - after magnum rounds it wont index anymore and the cylinder binds..

It was supposed to be smiths answer to the python- hardley.




UD

Chris
07-12-2009, 01:52 PM
S/A = Springfield Armory

Uncle Dave
07-13-2009, 12:32 AM
S/A = Springfield Armory

Ahh...

Grashopper understands.


UD

Trim'd Up
07-13-2009, 04:38 PM
I have a 686, and it is a great shooting gun, never had a problem. It was my dads duty weapon for alot of years, and has had a ton of 357 mag loads through it.. I have never seen a chrome 686. I am ALMOST positive that there was never a chrome 686. In fact, I believe the 686 is just the stainless version of the 586 which was available in nickel. Nickel plating did cause some problems on revolvers. Mine is polished stainless that looks like chrome but it's not. 686/586's were probably the best selling revolver S&W ever made. They were very big with law enforcement in the 80's. They are just K frames with a different cylinder to accommodate 357/ 38 +p.

Sea-Dated
07-13-2009, 05:50 PM
Some people have had good luck with the S/A handguns. I have not. Personally, I would consider carrying only one brand of handgun if it were being used to protect my life- HK.

I have a 4" XD 40 and have fired several thousand rounds through it and the only issue I have had is if it gets too dirty, like 750 rounds without a cleaning, the slide stop will keep the slide open when there are still rounds in the clip. Never had a jam or any other problems.

I love my XD and would buy another one in a heartbeat.

Uncle Dave
07-13-2009, 10:08 PM
I have a 686, and it is a great shooting gun, never had a problem. It was my dads duty weapon for alot of years, and has had a ton of 357 mag loads through it.. I have never seen a chrome 686. I am ALMOST positive that there was never a chrome 686. In fact, I believe the 686 is just the stainless version of the 586 which was available in nickel. Nickel plating did cause some problems on revolvers. Mine is polished stainless that looks like chrome but it's not. 686/586's were probably the best selling revolver S&W ever made. They were very big with law enforcement in the 80's. They are just K frames with a different cylinder to accommodate 357/ 38 +p.


I have the weapon in my hands right now.
Chrome was not the correct word.
Its a 6" SS 686. with aftermarket Hogue grips.
I stand corrected.

There is supposedly a recall on this particular revolver for just this issue and I might be able to dig up a few threads that discuss the problem.

I had a 4" blued 686 that was great- Im sure your dads was great- This particular 686 is a POS.

I defy anyone to show me three cylinders of .357's without a bind. Thats being generous

Its F-d and gunsmiths around here dont want to touch it-

(anyone out there know a good local one?)



UD

PS: Weapon is sitting on my parking ticket receipt for "no front plate-" GRRRRR

Uncle Dave
07-13-2009, 10:24 PM
Security & more deterrence.


UD

Slick02
07-15-2009, 10:21 AM
Theres no reason to modify the trigger if you buy the concealed hammer version, there is actually a hammer to cock with your thumb, its just real small, a slight knurled nub on the back of the pistol. The DAO, "dual action only" or commonly called hammerless versions have a stout and long trigger pull that take some time and frequent practice to master.




If I'm not mistaken Smith calls that a shrouded hammer and I would keep her away from the hammerless 38's due to not being able to de-cock them, and I personally have never been a big proponent of giving the average female an automatic of any kind.
Just my personal opinion, not meant to offend anyone.

Uncle Dave
07-15-2009, 11:17 AM
If I'm not mistaken Smith calls that a shrouded hammer and I would keep her away from the hammerless 38's due to not being able to de-cock them, and I personally have never been a big proponent of giving the average female an automatic of any kind.
Just my personal opinion, not meant to offend anyone.



The ability to de cock easily is a big deal, especially in the home. (grandson/neighbor mistaken for burglar) hence my comments about which small autos have a de-cocker. Preferably a silent HK style de-cock- not the Ruger P80 stye that sounds like a "dry firing"- this could potentially escalate a situation you want calmed down.

Beginner + female + automatic for me has been an especially bad combo.

An experienced Female with standard arm /hand strength- no problem.

Id advise some reading along with the handgun experience a book called "in the gravest extreme" by Massad Ayoob.

He is a highly respected former LEO with tremendous knowledge of the system & the book is loaded with good sound advice.


UD

PS: here come the "decocker" jokes........

Sea-Dated
07-15-2009, 02:27 PM
PS: here come the "decocker" jokes........

In my best Beavis voice.....

He said cock........:rofl::willy_nilly::rofl::willy_nilly::biggrinjester:

Ratickle
07-15-2009, 02:55 PM
PS: here come the "decocker" jokes........

I thought that had been upgraded to Bobbit?????:confused:

X-Rated30
07-16-2009, 02:52 AM
...I personally have never been a big proponent of giving the average female an automatic of any kind.

I have personally never been a fan of arming a woman. There is a fair chance you will see my name in the "victim" space in the report.:sifone:

But I took a chance starting this thread looking for some information, because she lives alone in the country and works in the court system. I know most people like small frames in .38 for newer female shooters, but she doesn't have the finger strength for a revolver in D/A mode. As she squeezes the trigger her hand begins to shake from the exertion, so much so that even at close range it could cause a miss or non-debilitating hit. And no - she can't afford a $500 handgun and $300 in trigger work.

Yes, ideally a revolver would be nice for a newer shooter, but with a little training, I see no reason an intelligent young woman can't carry an XD9 safely and with some practice in her purse. I mentioned getting her in the CCW class, and there is little more training out there - certainly very little til after you get past that step. We talk of "clearing drills" and what ifs, but frankly the average handgun shooting involves 5 rounds or less, regardless of weapon capacity.

Someone mentioned trouble loading auto clips and cycling the action. Neither of these should be done while there is a life threatening situation going on. A revolver is the best handgun ther is for the first 6 rounds... Does that mean autos are useless?

Sorry to vent, but I guess this thread went from "does any one have a suggestion?" to "If you can't carry a $900 auto or work a DA revolver, don't carry." Thats not correct and all of you know it.


...Theres no reason to modify the trigger if you buy the concealed hammer version, there is actually a hammer to cock with your thumb, its just real small, a slight knurled nub on the back of the pistol. Ummm lessee... if she has trouble pulling a trigger in a dire situation, why would a bobbed hammer make ANY sense? This shows as little thought for the original question as the "limp wrist" opinions. At least someone with a safely carried weapon could get the first round off accurately... I'd consider this a distinct advantage over an unarmed potential victim.

Frankly it isn't an ideal situation, but I believe the knowledgable folks on this board can come up with an acceptable solution that might allow her to carry safely to and from her office/car/house. Training is important, but I was asking for a good mechanical situation. Don't wail on me too bad - I am really looking for some good info.

Trim'd Up
07-16-2009, 08:23 AM
You said yourself that most shootings involve 5 rounds or less. Why carry an XD that is bulkier and heavier due to the high cap? (not dogging them in anyway, I have one)
If you are wanting to get her into an auto look into the Ruger LCP. They are reasonably priced, easily concealed and light. If trigger pull is really an issue than I guess a 1911 pattern compact, maybe in 9mm, carried cocked and locked would be the best bet, but they are pricey.

Chris
07-16-2009, 09:35 AM
You are maybe misunderstanding some of the advice being given here.

If you're going to carry ANY autoloading pistol, you either need to be proficient at clearing a misfeed or a failure-to-fire or you need to come to grips with the fact that you may be carrying a single-shot pistol. Maybe.

I own a number of autoloading handguns and I can tell you there are only a few that I would carry for self-defense. I have experienced issues failure issues with almost all of them. I'm at the range at least 2 or 3 times a week and see lots of people clearing obstructions from their autoloaders and I get asked lots of questions about what the problems are. And this is the primary reason that law enforcement agencies mandate what an oficer will and won't carry- and they spend much time and much $$ determining what weapons to choose. I only know of two or three departments that authorize the Springfield piece you're asking about- and only as a secondary (backup) weapon. Virtually everyone mandates Glock or SiG. To be blunt, if you choose a revolver purely to avoid becoming proficient in the use of an autoloading handgun, you have no business carrying it in the first place.

I think the most important take-away from this discussion is she really shouldn't consider purchasing or carrying a weapon if she's not committed to becoming proficient in it's use. And that takes training and practice. And not just once. And at the risk of being sexist, I think it's even more important for a woman. Not only just he mechanics of discharging the weapon, but techniques for employing it. Self-defense shooting is never a planned event. You're being forced to react to someone else's plan. That makes them events that occur on purely instinctive action on the part of the victim. And, quite frankly, if you have no instinct, you ARE better off not having a weapon. It's hard to beg for your life after you've tried unsuccessfully to kill the assailant.

Never Enuff
07-16-2009, 08:44 PM
I originally made the comment about a problem that many women(including my wife) have regarding limp wrist. I only brought that problem up so you would be aware that it is a problem with some shooters. I am sure that if you friend choses an automatic to carry, and you instruct her properly, as you say she will at least have one accurate shot. I don't even know how to respond to your statement regarding "one shot". Do as you may, there has been a lot of good information offered, however please reread the last paragraph of Chris' last post especially the last couple of sentences.
Jay

Dave
07-17-2009, 12:25 AM
I have personally never been a fan of arming a woman. There is a fair chance you will see my name in the "victim" space in the report.:sifone:

But I took a chance starting this thread looking for some information, because she lives alone in the country and works in the court system. I know most people like small frames in .38 for newer female shooters, but she doesn't have the finger strength for a revolver in D/A mode. As she squeezes the trigger her hand begins to shake from the exertion, so much so that even at close range it could cause a miss or non-debilitating hit. And no - she can't afford a $500 handgun and $300 in trigger work.

Yes, ideally a revolver would be nice for a newer shooter, but with a little training, I see no reason an intelligent young woman can't carry an XD9 safely and with some practice in her purse. I mentioned getting her in the CCW class, and there is little more training out there - certainly very little til after you get past that step. We talk of "clearing drills" and what ifs, but frankly the average handgun shooting involves 5 rounds or less, regardless of weapon capacity.

Someone mentioned trouble loading auto clips and cycling the action. Neither of these should be done while there is a life threatening situation going on. A revolver is the best handgun ther is for the first 6 rounds... Does that mean autos are useless?

Sorry to vent, but I guess this thread went from "does any one have a suggestion?" to "If you can't carry a $900 auto or work a DA revolver, don't carry." Thats not correct and all of you know it.

Ummm lessee... if she has trouble pulling a trigger in a dire situation, why would a bobbed hammer make ANY sense? This shows as little thought for the original question as the "limp wrist" opinions. At least someone with a safely carried weapon could get the first round off accurately... I'd consider this a distinct advantage over an unarmed potential victim.

Frankly it isn't an ideal situation, but I believe the knowledgable folks on this board can come up with an acceptable solution that might allow her to carry safely to and from her office/car/house. Training is important, but I was asking for a good mechanical situation. Don't wail on me too bad - I am really looking for some good info.

From everything that you have said so far it appears that your friend may not have enough hand strength to safely carry a handgun. I know that is not the answer you want to hear. A taser may be the only manageable solution to the problem.

Dave

Slick02
07-23-2009, 08:29 AM
[QUOTE=X-Rated30;269343]I have personally never been a fan of arming a woman. There is a fair chance you will see my name in the "victim" space in the report.:sifone:

But I took a chance starting this thread looking for some information, because she lives alone in the country and works in the court system. I know most people like small frames in .38 for newer female shooters, but she doesn't have the finger strength for a revolver in D/A mode. As she squeezes the trigger her hand begins to shake from the exertion, so much so that even at close range it could cause a miss or non-debilitating hit. And no - she can't afford a $500 handgun and $300 in trigger work.

Yes, ideally a revolver would be nice for a newer shooter, but with a little training, I see no reason an intelligent young woman can't carry an XD9 safely and with some practice in her purse. I mentioned getting her in the CCW class, and there is little more training out there - certainly very little til after you get past that step. We talk of "clearing drills" and what ifs, but frankly the average handgun shooting involves 5 rounds or less, regardless of weapon capacity.

Someone mentioned trouble loading auto clips and cycling the action. Neither of these should be done while there is a life threatening situation going on. A revolver is the best handgun ther is for the first 6 rounds... Does that mean autos are useless?

Sorry to vent, but I guess this thread went from "does any one have a suggestion?" to "If you can't carry a $900 auto or work a DA revolver, don't carry." Thats not correct and all of you know it.








I personally would still consider the S&W airweight 38 with a shrouded hammer, able to cock and or de-cock with her thumb as the individual circumstance requires with no fuss and less of a percentage chance of a "mistake" being made in the heat of pulling it. "Most" women do not(notice I said most not all) the same sense of mechanics that men do in their thought process, hence you have a better chance of an "accident" happening with an automatic of any type.

Just a personal opinion/observation not meant to offend anyone.

X-Rated30
08-30-2009, 10:24 AM
She ended up with the LCR and is going to take the ccw course.

Chris
08-31-2009, 10:13 AM
Good start. Encourage her to establish an ongoing relationship with a shooting coach and to make the commitment to spending some time at a range. Once she's there, it should be just like a gym workout. If you go to the gym, wander around and do a few exercises between chats with friends, you may enjoy yourself, but you're probably not receiving any benefit from the visit. Same with range time. Have a plan and a goal. And that's best established with the help of a coach.

Here are two things to consider-

First- exactly half of your potential shots from cover are going to occur from the right side. That means you either have to fully expose yourself or you're going to have to shoot left handed. Have you EVER fired your weapon left-handed? Does it even have ambidextrous controls?

Second- the largest possible target you can present to your adversary is a standing position. Have you ever fired your weapon in any other?

There are tons of these. And the time to find out what they are isn't that moment after drawing your sidearm and clicking the safety off.

Slandrew
08-31-2009, 10:03 PM
Ruger 45

Trim'd Up
09-01-2009, 07:54 AM
Ruger 45

KP345 I have one just like that. It is my do everything gun. The damn thing feeds anything and just plain shoots.

Good choice with LCR, For a CCW it is hard to beat. Very light, simple and the 38 is about as small as I would go self defense.

Chris
09-01-2009, 09:45 AM
Ruger may make a fine handgun but I only will say or write the name in telling the story about how their founder wrote and forced through the most impactful piece of firearms legislation ever. And I certainly wouldn't consider owning one.

http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/papabill.html

Some Bill Ruger quotes-

"No honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun"

"I never meant for civilians to have my 20 or 30 round magazines or my folding stock"

"I see nothing wrong with waiting periods"

Bill Ruger was perfectly willing to sell you and your Constitutionally-guaranteed rights down the river to hold on to a piece of his very lucrative business.

Trim'd Up
09-01-2009, 10:26 AM
Chris, I agree with your feelings on the subject, but Bill Ruger is long dead and the company is better for it. I am all for boycotting companies for their political stances, but when they turn around I don't feel they should continue to be punished. The new CEO Mike Fifer has different feelings on the subject of High Cap magazines, folding stocks, etc. or they wouldn't be building the new SR-556 or selling high cap magazines for their other guns. Remember, Ruger wasn't the only one willing to sell out their customers. S&W was right there with them.

gerritm
09-01-2009, 04:16 PM
We just did the same thing for a female friend. She was familiar with guns in general and revolvers but not semi's. Spent a whole afternoon at the gunshow checking out everything from Brownings to S&W. Encouraged her to buy something that ammo was available (9mm or 40, not .380) . She handled them all from Glocks to H&K and decided on a Ruger P94 in 9mm and 500 rounds of fmj ammo. We took her to the range the next weekend and after the basic safety and loading instructions she told us to leave her alone. She shot 250 rounds and couldn't hardly lift her arm at the end. At 21 feet she was putting them all in the center, moved to 15 yards and hit center mass. At 25 yards they were all on the target. Pretty good for a country girl. No misfires or jams. Ruger makes an excellent inexpensive gun.

My truck gun is a P-89 Ruger.

X-Rated30
09-05-2009, 01:48 AM
Good start. Encourage her to establish an ongoing relationship with a shooting coach and to make the commitment to spending some time at a range. Once she's there, it should be just like a gym workout.

Agreed. Unfortunately, I think her range time is going to be limited. We went today and after the first 15 rounds (in close succession - shoot five, load five, shoot five, etc.) her aim was VERY shaky. We went through about 40 rounds of solid lead target ammo and her hand hurt. (Perhaps a lighter low power round for practice - mental note.)

I am thinking once a week with 30 rds down range would be the most we can expect. And she REALLY likes shooting.

A short aside: after shooting, I got a text from her saying next time we shoot out at her house because clothing is optional (she lives out in the country). My response: "I don't think being bent over with my dick in you is going to improve your grouping. On the other hand - after the way you shot today it can't hurt.":sifone: