The Future of Offshore Racing

[skaterdave]

the unification post was turning into dragging a dead horse.

i'll spit out a few facts and add my opinion.

offshore racing was probably at its best back when abpa was running supercat, around 2000 to 2002?? you had atleast 8 plus boats, quality racing and it seemed to be growing. now, i don't know much about Mike A, other than he was running abpa offshore along with the help of some others but since i think that was the best we have had and seen i give him a big thumbs up!! even though your a lawyer and probably charge too much and you also seem to be motived more by money than the offshore racing itself. but i'd have to meet you before making any real judgements.

back to how to fix it?? well thats easy to see, but complicated to complete. as for the one premier class, i see basicly what the class one guys are doing. Maritimo has already shown, or atleast attempted to run with the big $$$ teams and had some success and that using old merc supercat engines. racing here in the US resembles more of a poker run than actually racing. just look how many teams actually have a full time crew and race for a living. we can count them on one hand. sbi's said they got tv and its still hasn't help them with boat count. and just look at the last thread, how many racers were on there discussing how to fix things. a few of the current svls, gino( whos trying to start another class), fans and ex-racers and one of the turbine guys who's saying they should have raced in another class with more competition. none of the big guys seem to care. i guess that with only one class that would mean less trophies ?

oss seems to be down for the count and i see or hear a possible buy out and merger of some kind with the two remaining. would this be good, maybe but some how i think that those with the money are not really looking to make the sport as a whole better but more to advance their own agendas.

as for class rules or changes well heres my thought:

smitty's P5,4,3 seem to be really working, especially the P5 class. just wish he'd switch over to a garmin gps rather than the current model. and throw the bat boats in with what ever gino's comes up with.

anything over 90 mph should have a canopy. for everyone that opposes me on this idea, i would invite you down to florida where i'll take out in the gulf of mexico and at exactly 90 mph you can jump off my boat head first. i'll repeat this process until you convince yourself the canopy rule is the way to go.

power to weight for the vees

use the class one rules for the cats ( add some sort of power to weight)

everything else must go or be pushed into the above classes.

yes some of you might go a little slower, some might be ****ed that there not winning, but if your true racers, i think that you would rather take a fifth out of ten rather than a first out of one, well maybe.

the IROC type series i think sucks. racers want something they can tweak and work on. this is why i think the 850 class doesn't work. the idea that some how you'll keep costs down by limiting the rules, drives, motors or boat design will just keep the racing stagnant atleast for the premier class. plus those wit the $$$$ still find ways to spend it. instead of buying a bunch of different pitch props now you got guys having 4 of the same pitch since the rule limits you to a certain size. plus then you run into the tech problems with having one of the suppliers for some of the teams doing tech. can you say conflict?

next until we get some kinda of unified class with rules and tech, why bother with prize money. why not distrubute the money out evenly as tow money. this way those that have boats the they know aren't winners will wanna come out and race. and soon enough those in the back will be having just as much fun since there will be more compitition and you'll have good racing threw out the whole field.

[SHARKEY-IMAGES]

Clean slate and use this as a promotional video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_SAFjARlMc



:)

[Steve Miklos]

the unification post was turning into dragging a dead horse.

i'll spit out a few facts and add my opinion.

offshore racing was probably at its best back when abpa was running supercat, around 2000 to 2002?? you had atleast 8 plus boats, quality racing and it seemed to be growing. now, i don't know much about Mike A, other than he was running abpa offshore along with the help of some others but since i think that was the best we have had and seen i give him a big thumbs up!! even though your a lawyer and probably charge too much and you also seem to be motived more by money than the offshore racing itself. but i'd have to meet you before making any real judgements.

back to how to fix it?? well thats easy to see, but complicated to complete. as for the one premier class, i see basicly what the class one guys are doing. Maritimo has already shown, or atleast attempted to run with the big $$$ teams and had some success and that using old merc supercat engines. racing here in the US resembles more of a poker run than actually racing. just look how many teams actually have a full time crew and race for a living. we can count them on one hand. sbi's said they got tv and its still hasn't help them with boat count. and just look at the last thread, how many racers were on there discussing how to fix things. a few of the current svls, gino( whos trying to start another class), fans and ex-racers and one of the turbine guys who's saying they should have raced in another class with more competition. none of the big guys seem to care. i guess that with only one class that would mean less trophies ?

oss seems to be down for the count and i see or hear a possible buy out and merger of some kind with the two remaining. would this be good, maybe but some how i think that those with the money are not really looking to make the sport as a whole better but more to advance their own agendas.

as for class rules or changes well heres my thought:

smitty's P5,4,3 seem to be really working, especially the P5 class. just wish he'd switch over to a garmin gps rather than the current model. and throw the bat boats in with what ever gino's comes up with.

anything over 90 mph should have a canopy. for everyone that opposes me on this idea, i would invite you down to florida where i'll take out in the gulf of mexico and at exactly 90 mph you can jump off my boat head first. i'll repeat this process until you convince yourself the canopy rule is the way to go.

power to weight for the vees

use the class one rules for the cats ( add some sort of power to weight)

everything else must go or be pushed into the above classes.

yes some of you might go a little slower, some might be ****ed that there not winning, but if your true racers, i think that you would rather take a fifth out of ten rather than a first out of one, well maybe.

the IROC type series i think sucks. racers want something they can tweak and work on. this is why i think the 850 class doesn't work. the idea that some how you'll keep costs down by limiting the rules, drives, motors or boat design will just keep the racing stagnant atleast for the premier class. plus those wit the $$$$ still find ways to spend it. instead of buying a bunch of different pitch props now you got guys having 4 of the same pitch since the rule limits you to a certain size. plus then you run into the tech problems with having one of the suppliers for some of the teams doing tech. can you say conflict?

next until we get some kinda of unified class with rules and tech, why bother with prize money. why not distrubute the money out evenly as tow money. this way those that have boats the they know aren't winners will wanna come out and race. and soon enough those in the back will be having just as much fun since there will be more compitition and you'll have good racing threw out the whole field.

I cannot disagree with much of that!
Steve

[Top Banana]

Are we talking roundy round racing or can we get back to open ocean racing, point to point again?

With the open ocean as an equalizer, you have many boats that have a chance at the win, not just the big buck owners.

Why not try going back to the roots of the sport. Real ocean conditions to prove the value of the product....boat design, engines, drives, props, bilge pumps...etc etc. We never really had any prize money to speak of and had lots of boats show up. The manufacturer wanted a venue to prove his products value....this gave it to them. They gave the racers their products to use.

Our race next February, from Miami to Key West is going to give this idea some traction. We just need enough sponsorship / entry fee money, to cover the insurance and related safety expenses. Throw in someone to donate trophies and off we go.

A well prepared boat could do very well if the water is a bit choppy, as it usually is in the winter. The real slick money machines won't go for it.....remember the St Pete poker run this year.....70 plus boats entered....7 made the lunch stop.

So, no money, no sponsors, no fans........just racers, figuring out how to come up with enough to cover the expenses and having a great time racing in the second oldest offshore race venue in the record books.

MIAMI TO KEY WEST ....February, 2010. The Saturday on the weekend after the Miami Boat Show.

[WHEELMAN]

Are we talking roundy round racing or can we get back to open ocean racing, point to point again?

With the open ocean as an equalizer, you have many boats that have a chance at the win, not just the big buck owners.

Why not try going back to the roots of the sport. Real ocean conditions to prove the value of the product....boat design, engines, drives, props, bilge pumps...etc etc. We never really had any prize money to speak of and had lots of boats show up. The manufacturer wanted a venue to prove his products value....this gave it to them. They gave the racers their products to use.

Our race next February, from Miami to Key West is going to give this idea some traction. We just need enough sponsorship / entry fee money, to cover the insurance and related safety expenses. Throw in someone to donate trophies and off we go.

A well prepared boat could do very well if the water is a bit choppy, as it usually is in the winter. The real slick money machines won't go for it.....remember the St Pete poker run this year.....70 plus boats entered....7 made the lunch stop.

So, no money, no sponsors, no fans........just racers, figuring out how to come up with enough to cover the expenses and having a great time racing in the second oldest offshore race venue in the record books.

MIAMI TO KEY WEST ....February, 2010. The Saturday on the weekend after the Miami Boat Show.

I agree 100%. A lot of race boats old and new would competitive in actual offshore racing. We need to stop worrying about getting fans when we don't have enough race boats on the course. In a real ocean race nobody goes 130 everybody goes 80. Get the sport back on track and everything else will fall into place.

[Sean Stinson]

Look I have said all I have to say I opened a dialogue and it seems that everyone of some of the older guys are coming out of the woodwork!!! The cards will fall where they fall... All I can say is that it seems everyone is of the same basic mindset persay!!! Now it's time for someone (MIKE A) to take the bull by the horns and build your model!!! Build it and they will come is the new motto of offshore racing!! I have one request bring endurance open ocean racing to the table somehow even if its a Sat race!!!!

[FastDonzi]

I think it was more exciting for onshore spectators back in the 70s-80s-90s when the boats actully went offshore and you could not see them, the excitemient was to see who came back first, to see rooster tails going across the horizon, hearing the pipe music of a boat you couldn't even see yet. Ah the good ol days.

[Sean Stinson]

I think it was more exciting for onshore spectators back in the 70s-80s-90s when the boats actully went offshore and you could not see them, the excitemient was to see who came back first, to see rooster tails going across the horizon, hearing the pipe music of a boat you couldn't even see yet. Ah the good ol days.

That is my favorite racing but I think the new Offshore venues will be more closed course racing!!!!!

[TGC-32]

I think it was more exciting for onshore spectators back in the 70s-80s-90s when the boats actully went offshore and you could not see them, the excitemient was to see who came back first, to see rooster tails going across the horizon, hearing the pipe music of a boat you couldn't even see yet. Ah the good ol days.

I gree 100%. That was the best when you would watch a race in Key West, seeing who came into the harbor first on each lap, and wondering what happened offshore when the running order changed. And it DID change, not like the "fall in line" follow-the-leader style racing you get on the shorter flat water courses. But I guess when we long for how things "used to be" we are just showing our age!

Tom
Total Marine

[smokeybandit]

After I left the physical therapist yesterday I called my wife to tell her how it went. My back and my shoulder are a mess and they blame it all on racing. I asked my wife if maybe the guys racing around in circles today are smarter than we were. She told me that they might be smarter, but they aren't having nearly as much fun as we did pounding waves.

We should start a new campaign. "Bring Offshore Racing Back Offshore"

[Sean Stinson]

After I left the physical therapist yesterday I called my wife to tell her how it went. My back and my shoulder are a mess and they blame it all on racing. I asked my wife if maybe the guys racing around in circles today are smarter than we were. She told me that they might be smarter, but they aren't having nearly as much fun as we did pounding waves.

We should start a new campaign. "Bring Offshore Racing Back Offshore"


I have been saying that for a long time.....I understand the new concept but thats not to say that it actually can't be implemented somehow in a racing weekend!!!!

[Fast Shafts]

Smokey,
You guys ran quite a few "Offshore" races in calm water: Barnegat bay, Tampa Bay, Ft. Myers, Lake Erie, Rochester, and lake Winnepseakee (SP?).
Offshore moved "Inshore" long ago.....
But I do agree there are way too many Inshore races.....

[smokeybandit]

I'll tell you what. You go race in Barnegat Bay in a 21' Superboat with a 2.4 on it and tell me how calm it is. Then again, I watched my old man run that same race in the Apache and he said he could have put his coffee on the dash and not spilled a drop.

Take a look at the picture that Charlie posted of the start of a race. That looks like the start of every NPBA race. That is what the start of every race should look like. The problem is that if the first turn is 100 yards after the start, you can't possibly do that. Let em run for a few miles after the start to spread them out.

[T2x]

Smokey,
You guys ran quite a few "Offshore" races in calm water: Barnegat bay, Tampa Bay, Ft. Myers, Lake Erie, Rochester, and lake Winnepseakee (SP?).
Offshore moved "Inshore" long ago.....
But I do agree there are way too many Inshore races.....

For the record......... Rochester, Buffalo (Lake Erie), and Lake Michigan were some of the roughest races I have ever seen...... In fact Rochester almost cost Bobby Saccenti his life......... I don't think that Smokey ever ran in Tampa Bay or Lake Winnepesaukee as both of those courses are among the new "spectator friendly" locations. Finally, the recent Fort Myers races and the old Cape Coral course are vastly different........

However, to your point, the recent flip in the Middle East definitely shows how the hull designs have become very different over the years. Nowadays the outboards are little more than two man, twin engine Champ boats....a design that makes no sense at all as an offshore racing platform.
IMHO.....although the Doug Wrights are suprizingly nimble in big seas........ perhaps the exception to the rule?

T2x

[Chris]

I'll never forget the Betty Cook quote after winning on Lake Erie...

"I'm never coming back"

Then there was the Grand Haven race in '85. Gentry and Copeland raced their 20K/lb, 4-engine superboats. Tom broke and Al won- I think the average speed was 56 mph.

But they're "just lakes".

[audacity]

xcat is great class!

what would be a good offshore class...50 foot v with 4500hp to make it go 125mph?

[audacity]

I'll never forget the Betty Cook quote after winning on Lake Erie...

"I'm never coming back"

Then there was the Grand Haven race in '85. Gentry and Copeland raced their 20K/lb, 4-engine superboats. Tom broke and Al won- I think the average speed was 56 mph.

But they're "just lakes".

i was there...waxing boats and cleaning teak for pizza.

[F1-00 Racing]

xcat is great class!



Joey,

Since everything points at JBS being done, did you complete your purchase of your "xcat" yet? When will it debut? Congrats!!!! Cant wait to see it!

[TGC-32]

i was there...waxing boats and cleaning teak for pizza.

Shhh, Joey, you're showing your age!

Just kidding! I would pay to be as young as you!

Tom
Total Marine

[audacity]

the new jbs mystic paint was completed today.

[audacity]

Shhh, Joey, you're showing your age!

Just kidding! I would pay to be as young as you!

Tom
Total Marine

my insides r old as hell...i don't think anyone could use me as a donor for anything.

[smokeybandit]

I'll never forget the Betty Cook quote after winning on Lake Erie...

"I'm never coming back"

Then there was the Grand Haven race in '85. Gentry and Copeland raced their 20K/lb, 4-engine superboats. Tom broke and Al won- I think the average speed was 56 mph.

But they're "just lakes".

Grand Haven was my nemesis. 85 we broke a skeg off the drive while leading by a huge margin. I got in the water and checked it and we decided to continue on only to break something else (can't remember what right now) and had to stop. 86 I stuffed the Skater. I'm sure they have really nice people there, but I never want to go back.

[Mike A.]

For the record......... I don't think that Smokey ever ran in Tampa Bay or Lake Winnepesaukee as both of those courses are among the new "spectator friendly" locations.

T2x

Rich,

Tampa Bay is a venue dating back to the 60's, and wasn't one of your first races as a commentator the Hurricane Classic in which the Michelob Light barrel-rolled in Tampa Bay?

[Steve Miklos]

Guys I love them and particpate in them. With that said they are a very hard sell to sponsors. If you race up and down the beach the wakes and seas are rougher than you might think. Yesterday the roughest part of the course between Miami and Bimini was the first and last three miles.

Steve

[T2x]

Rich,

Tampa Bay is a venue dating back to the 60's, and wasn't one of your first races as a commentator the Hurricane Classic in which the Michelob Light barrel-rolled in Tampa Bay?


I actually didn't announce that race, but wasn't that when the course ran out into the Gulf? In any event I don't think the Smokey and the Bandit Chris Cat ever ran in Tampa Bay...... The course I was referring to was the "new" St. Pete Course.

[Steve Miklos]

I actually didn't announce that race, but wasn't that when the course ran out into the Gulf? In any event I don't think the Smokey and the Bandit Chris Cat ever ran in Tampa Bay...... The course I was referring to was the "new" St. Pete Course.

I know in either 1986 or 87 I was driving over the skyway and saw the boats racing through the bridge. I was hooked allthough I only saw a few boats for a few seconds.
Steve