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sledge
05-31-2009, 02:04 PM
What kind of effort is involved? Say 15' long x 6' wide?

Excalibur Racing
06-03-2009, 09:01 AM
I doubt if anyone here is going to help you steal someone elses design.

Chris
06-03-2009, 09:29 AM
If it's the latest Skater or something like that, I'd say there would be an issue. If it's an MFG tri-hull, I don't think there's a problem. Virtually everything produced in an offshore boat in the last 30 years is based on a pop of the Magnum 27, including virtually all of the Cigarettes. If it's an existing production model, I'd say it's unethical- unless you're using it as the basis for a plug that you're doing substantial modifications to. And if you're just making one for yourself, all bets are off.

To make a mold from an existing hull requires alot of work. First, you have to fix whatever issue the hull has. If it's twisted or hooked, that needs to be addressed. Then it has to be flawless. Imperfections transfer to the mold and everything you pull will have to be worked. Then you need to wax it down and get the proper amount of mold release on it. Too little and you'll never get them apart. Too much and you'll have a funky mold that produces funky parts. Then you cover in tooling gel, then start glassing it up. You'd probably want two to three times the thickness of the boat you're constructing. Coring is also a possibility. Then you have to box it- either with pipe or wooden forms. The hull is going to be easier than the deck mold, especially if it's a bucket style with an integral cockpit.

Short version- it's a big, difficult and expensive deal.

sledge
06-03-2009, 12:32 PM
I doubt if anyone here is going to help you steal someone elses design.

Thanks for the ****** reponse. Take the attitude back to another forum.

Original hull/deck design dates back to the '60s.

Am I the only one who can see the part where I said the boat is 15 feet long with 6 foot beam? :seeya:

glassdave
06-03-2009, 12:57 PM
Michael can you give us a little more info on what you are trying to accomplish? As Chris said the effort involved can vary widely. If its just a one shot deal you could do a quick an dirty mold that would require more finish work on the pulled parts but would be more cost prohibitive than doing a full production type set molds.

sledge
06-03-2009, 01:29 PM
C'mon Chris, could've at least left a few letters in there...:D

Hey Dave...I found a hull and deck. Couldn't talk the owner out of it, he's thinking about making a mold. I know nothing of splashing a mold other than how many times it's been done. I really wanted the original hull but I'm wondering if it would be "worth it" to have a copy. While I think there might be some very small interest in it, my intentions weren't to go into production. I'm "educating" the current owner as to what he's got to make sure he doesn't go and ruin it, but I have no idea what his plans will be.

Geronimo36
06-03-2009, 01:45 PM
Just my opinion... Splashing for sale is a no-no.. splashing for personal consumption, no beef with me. :)

I made my first surfboard by "splashing" it from one of my favorite boards. From there I had a starting point and incorporated many changes in the 20 other boards I made afterwards. :)

glassdave
06-03-2009, 02:05 PM
cool, sounds more like preservation rather than a splash/production issue, I dont see much harm in that if its an out of production out of date piece. Are you able/willing to disclose what hull? If you dont intend to produce them and it may be your only way to obtain one should be no biggie. hell look how many Shelby Cobras there are running around the streets, probably a hundred times more than Carrol ever made lol. Yea splashing does bring up some ethical and moral issues. Personally i'm not a big fan but theres a lot of gray areas that surround it. My only reservation is when its a blatant rip off for the sole purpose of production but i dont think thats what we have here.

You can build a decent mold without getting to carried away if you just take your time on it and use you head. you could probably keep it under a couple grand in materials.

sledge
06-03-2009, 02:39 PM
Thanks Dave. Able-yes, willing-I'll let the cat out of the bag soon enough I suppose...

Am I the only one who sees a little irony in the idea that our "legend" Don gained his reputation by carrying the same design between brands yet we're so vigilant these days to pounce on anybody who thinks about replicating his methods? Boy could we go sideways with the whole intellectual property and patent law discussion...but that's not what I was trying to do here. :D

Alright, alright already, I'm busted....I want to take a 15' boat to China and make millions of copies. :biggrinjester:

glassdave
06-03-2009, 03:40 PM
Thanks Dave. Able-yes, willing-I'll let the cat out of the bag soon enough I suppose...

Am I the only one who sees a little irony in the idea that our "legend" Don gained his reputation by carrying the same design between brands yet we're so vigilant these days to pounce on anybody who thinks about replicating his methods? Boy could we go sideways with the whole intellectual property and patent law discussion...but that's not what I was trying to do here. :D

Alright, alright already, I'm busted....I want to take a 15' boat to China and make millions of copies. :biggrinjester:


lol AHH HAAA!! so its a cat! . . . millions huh . . .sell 'em cheap at Wal Mart? :D

yea if you know what your lookin at you can easily see the progressions in design. There was a time when builders actually helped each other out in design and build techniques to better the sport. Ya know its funny though, theres only so many shapes a boat can take. I mean we know what works so its really hard to improve on those older designs, there were some good thinkers that got the whole thing rolling (or floating). Hell every car on the road today has four round wheels for a reason :sifone:

Chris
06-03-2009, 04:14 PM
Damn near all the 24 foot boats out there are splashes of the Cig 24. And virtually everything else is a splash of the Magnum 27, including at it's fullest extension the Apache 41. There's only so many ways to tweak the strakes on a straight-bottomed 24 degree hull. Length is length. So where does that leave you? There are some technical innovations out there but they're mostly fine adjustments on designs of years or decades previous. We've traced steps back to race boats from the 30's and even amphibious aircraft pontoons. So what idea or design is unique? In some cases where you're popping someone's latest design, that's wrong. But how many diferent ways is there to design a coal shovel? And the Cobra anaogy is pretty close- at some point you're building a homage. Especially when the original builder is years or decades gone.

Offshore Ginger
06-03-2009, 06:09 PM
hell build the dam thing its a walk in the park nothing really hard about it !:sifone:

Dude! Sweet!
06-03-2009, 07:04 PM
Damn near all the 24 foot boats out there are splashes of the Cig 24. And virtually everything else is a splash of the Magnum 27, including at it's fullest extension the Apache 41. There's only so many ways to tweak the strakes on a straight-bottomed 24 degree hull. Length is length. So where does that leave you? There are some technical innovations out there but they're mostly fine adjustments on designs of years or decades previous. We've traced steps back to race boats from the 30's and even amphibious aircraft pontoons. So what idea or design is unique? In some cases where you're popping someone's latest design, that's wrong. But how many diferent ways is there to design a coal shovel? And the Cobra anaogy is pretty close- at some point you're building a homage. Especially when the original builder is years or decades gone.

Except that Shelby is suing everyone he can get his hands on these days...

Chris
06-03-2009, 07:24 PM
Hadn't heard that. I'm wondering under what basis- they were sold by Ford and originally produced by AC in England. Shelby was a hotrodder that stuck a v-8 and a jag rear in them under contract for Ford.

Geronimo36
06-03-2009, 07:59 PM
OT: The AC brings more cash than the Shelby's from what I'm told.

Tony
06-03-2009, 09:17 PM
So, your building a Cougar Cub, or OE mini.....talk to Sparky at Vicious.

Dude! Sweet!
06-04-2009, 02:07 AM
He's been doing it for a couple of years. Memory is fuzzy on the grounds (Cobra trade name/copy right was the first round as I recall, but I think one of the FFR guys told me he's back again for a second round of suits). I'll ask tomorrow if I think of it.

sledge
06-04-2009, 10:31 AM
Trademarks/Copyrights have different lives than patents. I used to work for a generic drug company so I've got just a partial clue there.

Before everyone goes nuts, consider where NAPA, Year One, those Alpha & now Bravo replacements would be if patents hadn't expired. Hell, can't you pretty much build an "original" replica of a '60s Camaro now?

Now if you tried to pawn off that made in China crap as a true original OEM part, THAT would be illegal. But once a patent has expired, if one ever even existed, it's fair game.

Ratickle
06-04-2009, 10:50 AM
Trademarks/Copyrights have different lives than patents. I used to work for a generic drug company so I've got just a partial clue there.

Before everyone goes nuts, consider where NAPA, Year One, those Alpha & now Bravo replacements would be if patents hadn't expired. Hell, can't you pretty much build an "original" replica of a '60s Camaro now?

Now if you tried to pawn off that made in China crap as a true original OEM part, THAT would be illegal. But once a patent has expired, if one ever even existed, it's fair game.

I doubt many of those designs ever had patents. To get one is pretty expensive and the proof is required for it to be unique in some way.

As far as I know most were probably patent pending. Which would be a protection device for anyone with less money to spend on legal fees than them.....

glassdave
06-04-2009, 11:00 AM
I dont think we're talking patents here and besides those replica Camaro bodies are licensed by GM. Besides i dont think you really have an issue with what you are trying to accomplish. The unethical side of splashing comes into play when a newer current run product/hull is blatantly copied and resold. I am assuming you are looking to do a short run to preserve an older unique boat model nearing extinction. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. If thats the case we should steer this thread back to answering you original question.

Ratickle
06-04-2009, 11:03 AM
I dont think we're talking patents here and besides those replica Camaro bodies are licensed by GM. Besides i dont think you really have an issue with what you are trying to accomplish. The unethical side of splashing comes into play when a newer current run product/hull is blatantly copied and resold. I am assuming you are looking to do a short run to preserve an older unique boat model nearing extinction. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

You guys need to merge these two threads so it is apparant what we're looking at.....


http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7358

sledge
06-04-2009, 01:17 PM
The only common point between the threads is the actual hull. I asked a generic question about what it takes to make a mold from an existing hull & deck. The other thread is to share a very rare piece of history that I'd like to preserve. So far only Dave and Chris have provided much insight as to what it takes to make a mold. The rest is people getting their panties in a bunch. :D

Ratickle
06-04-2009, 01:20 PM
The only common point between the threads is the actual hull. I asked a generic question about what it takes to make a mold from an existing hull & deck. The other thread is to share a very rare piece of history that I'd like to preserve. So far only Dave and Chris have provided much insight as to what it takes to make a mold. The rest is people getting their panties in a bunch. :D

No panties in a bunch here. I'm on your side. I would also see if you could get our Icons to assist with the mold and restoration. A herd of baby Cigs around the wet pits would be a very cool thing.

sledge
06-04-2009, 01:21 PM
If thats the case we should steer this thread back to answering you original question.

Thanks Dave!

sledge
06-04-2009, 01:29 PM
No panties in a bunch here. I'm on your side. I would also see if you could get our Icons to assist with the mold and restoration. A herd of baby Cigs around the wet pits would be a very cool thing.

:)
Thanks. But like I said, I have zero motivation to become a boat builder. Really just trying to get a handle on whether there's some monetary break-even that I could convince this guy to take a copy and give me the original.

Steve 1
06-05-2009, 02:47 PM
:)
Thanks. But like I said, I have zero motivation to become a boat builder. Really just trying to get a handle on whether there's some monetary break-even that I could convince this guy to take a copy and give me the original.




Simple run the Material cost for the mold Like the Release, Gelcoat and glass material resin and 1oz mat is all I would use in the buildup.the labor is easy to figure once time frames are established; If you got permission.. a couple things the 24’s you see running around are traceable to a 23 foot mica mold the old master Schoell Built to produce a boat for Doc Magoon the 27 Magnum another Schoell Boat was 29 feet originally Now the 27 Magnum that is a touchy subject and look for something in the future from Magnum on that(real Nice people there)

Racerguymiami
12-19-2009, 12:48 AM
Read this. If the original hull design has not been registered under the VHDPA of 2008 you can splash the hell out of it. Only 11 builders have registered their designs.

http://floridaiptrends.com/2009/02/23/vessel-hull-design-protection-act-what-the-hull/

Florida is the Sunshine State, and along with all that sunshine comes an inordinate amount of love for boats. We love boats so much that our lawmakers even tried to create a law protecting the manufacturers of boats from unauthorized copying of their boat hull designs. The U.S. Supreme Court didn’t take kindly to that, and a little thing called the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution settled the matter. That case was the 1988 case of Bonito Boats v. Thunder Craft Boats, and Justice O’Connor, writing for a unanimous Court, stated that Florida’s law was in essence a competing intellectual property protection scheme to the U.S. Patent and Copyright laws. As such, it failed.

But, the case did open a can of sunshine on the issue, and Congress responded to the concerns of boat manufacturers by including the Vessel Hull Design Protection Act (“VHDPA”) within the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998. As with Florida’s invalidated statute, the VHDPA intended to curb the practice of “splashing” boat hulls. Splashing occurs when a manufacturer takes a finished boat hull and dips it into some mold-making compound to produce a mold of the hull. Imagine filling a pan with modeling compound (such as Play-Doh® brand), sticking your hand into the compound to create an impression, and then filling the void with resin to create a duplicate of your hand – you have just “splashed” your hand.

Although the VHDPA protects designs, it is administered by the U.S. Copyright Office and codified at 17 U.S.C. § 1301, et. al. Boat manufacturers now have a trifecta of protection for the design of hulls: 1) design patent protection under the Patent Act, 2) trade dress protection under the Lanham Act, and 3) “original design” protection under the Copyright Act. (While this article is not intended to weigh the pros and cons of the different protection mechanisms, it is interesting to note the hybrid nature of VHDPA protection.)

Is My Design Eligible?

In order for your boat design to qualify for VHDPA registration, you must seek registration within 2 years of the date the design was first made public. A design is made public “when an existing useful article embodying the design is anywhere publicly exhibited, publicly distributed, or offered for sale or sold to the public by the owner of the design or with the owner’s consent.” 17 U.S.C. § 1310.

The design must also be original, not a staple or commonplace design, and ornamental (i.e. not utilitarian). The issuance of a design patent will also cancel and/or prevent registration under the VHDPA.

How Does it Work?

Assuming your design is eligible, the VHDPA gives protection to “the design of a vessel hull, deck, or combination of a hull and deck, including a plug or mold…” “Hull” is defined as “the exterior frame or body of a vessel, exclusive of the deck, superstructure, masts, sails, yards, rigging, hardware, fixtures, and other attachments,” and a “deck” is defined as “the horizontal surface of a vessel that covers the hull, including exterior cabin and cockpit surfaces…”

In order to receive protection, you must fill out Form D-VH, attach “deposit material” (pictures of your boat), and pay the fee (currently $200).

Once you submit the required material, the Copyright Office will examine the application and determine if the design meets the statutory standards for registration. If so, the design will be registered and published. The publication date will serve as the date of registration.

You are also required to mark the hull and/or deck in some manner to show that it has been registered. The Copyright Office requires the words “Protected Design”, the abbreviation “Prot’d Des.”, a “circle D” symbol similar to the ® for a registered trademark, or the symbol “*D*”. You must also include the year protection commenced and the name of the owner or the generally accepted alternative designation of the owner. The “generally accepted alternative designation of the owner” is interesting in that it requires the owner to record such a designation with the Copyright Office. This is all a fancy way to describe your logo. If your boat company operates under a logo, you can record the logo with the Copyright Office and use that “alternative designation” when marking the boat with the “Protected Design” designation. So, “Kevin Wimberly, *D* 2009″ would satisfy the marking requirement as would “[Your logo as recorded at the C0pyright Office’, *D* 2009.”

As of today, only 11 logos/designations have been recorded with the Copyright Office. See them HERE.

What Benefit Does It Give Me?

A registered vessel hull or deck design is protected for 10 years from the earlier of the date of registration or the date the design is first made public. 17 U.S.C. § 1304. The protection gives the registrant the exclusive right to make, have made, import, sell, and/or distribute any useful article embodying the registered design.

If someone does infringe the design, assuming the design was properly marked upon receiving a registration, the registrant may recover actual damages, the infringer’s profits, attorney’s fees, and an injunction requiring the infringer to cease infringing and to destroy any molds and devices used to create infringing hulls. Note that if the registrant did NOT mark the vessel in accordance with 17 U.S.C. § 1306, the recovery of damages will only accrue from the time the registrant put the alleged infringer on notice, such as via a cease and desist letter which asserts the registration.

Why Are You Writing About It in 2009?

Good question. Late last year (October 16, 2008 to be precise), the Vessel Hull Design Protection Amendments of 2008 were approved and signed into law by President Bush. These amendments closed a loophole by which some manufacturers took advantage of loose definitions in the original VHDPA. Prior to the Amendments, the definition of “hull” included the deck, which meant that a manufacturer could splash the hull of a competitor’s boat and simply change the features of the deck and not infringe under the VHDPA. As shown above, the VHDPA now differentiates between the hull and the deck of a vessel, and both are protected individually or in combination.

Is the VHDPA For Me?

It could be. That depends on your specific circumstances, and you should consult an attorney to help you make that determination. The general concensus is that registrations under the Vessel Hull Design Protection Act are fewer than anticipated. This may be because of the aforementioned loophole. Given that the loophole was only recently closed, it may take some time for manufacturers to begin registering their designs again. The most recent design on the Copyright Office’s website is from October 8, 2008. You can view the entire library of registered vessel designs HERE.

MarylandMark
12-19-2009, 05:05 PM
Welcome to SOS and thank you for the information!

Can I ask how you know all of that? IE- you a boat builder?

fizel
12-22-2009, 12:02 PM
Raceyguymiami - I suggest you consult an attorney before encouraging people to splash any boat hull not protected under the VHDPA.

As the article states, "Boat manufacturers now have a trifecta of protection for the design of hulls: 1) design patent protection under the Patent Act, 2) trade dress protection under the Lanham Act, and 3) “original design” protection under the Copyright Act. (While this article is not intended to weigh the pros and cons of the different protection mechanisms, it is interesting to note the hybrid nature of VHDPA protection.)"

Powerabout
12-22-2009, 02:40 PM
If you want to splash a boat to ensure its around for future generations why not just get it scanned and you can keep the cad file ready for a mill cut plug in the future
then you dont have to worry about shrinkage putting hooks in all the surfaces.

glassdave
12-22-2009, 02:50 PM
If you want to splash a boat to ensure its around for future generations why not just get it scanned and you can keep the cad file ready for a mill cut plug in the future
then you dont have to worry about shrinkage putting hooks in all the surfaces.

you'll have several thousand in just the scan and you can count on 20 or 30K for a foam plug.

scippy
12-29-2009, 05:01 AM
I've just come aboard and would like to say hello to all. I hope to cut my teeth here when I start work on my '73 Mag sport this spring. It's interesting to hear how so few designed hulls (back in the day) have spawned so many different boat building companies I guess all had profit in mind and most would have to tip thier hats but for the few iconic hulls of the past, happy to know Magnum is one.

MarylandMark
12-29-2009, 08:27 AM
Welcome Scippy!!

Ted
12-29-2009, 09:34 AM
I've just come aboard and would like to say hello to all. I hope to cut my teeth here when I start work on my '73 Mag sport this spring. It's interesting to hear how so few designed hulls (back in the day) have spawned so many different boat building companies I guess all had profit in mind and most would have to tip thier hats but for the few iconic hulls of the past, happy to know Magnum is one.


The magnums were and still are great boats. This board lives to see and hear about projects that guys are doing, and a classic hull like that will garner a lot of interest. Start a thread and show some pics of that bad boy right now and hopefully if you need any advise, parts, or help our merry band of boaters can hook you up. Welcome, looking forward to seeing the boat!

OneBadInjun
02-04-2010, 10:01 PM
Damn near all the 24 foot boats out there are splashes of the Cig 24. And virtually everything else is a splash of the Magnum 27, including at it's fullest extension the Apache 41. There's only so many ways to tweak the strakes on a straight-bottomed 24 degree hull. Length is length. So where does that leave you? There are some technical innovations out there but they're mostly fine adjustments on designs of years or decades previous. We've traced steps back to race boats from the 30's and even amphibious aircraft pontoons. So what idea or design is unique? In some cases where you're popping someone's latest design, that's wrong. But how many diferent ways is there to design a coal shovel? And the Cobra anaogy is pretty close- at some point you're building a homage. Especially when the original builder is years or decades gone.The 41 Apache did not come from lengthening a 27 Magnum hull. Many other boats have, as you said, but the Apache was not one of them.

Chris
02-04-2010, 10:09 PM
If you follow from theMagnum to Cig 28 to the 35 and through the 38, you'll find where Don came up with the 41. Obviously he didn't start expanding from the base of a 27 Magnum.

OneBadInjun
02-13-2010, 06:48 PM
If you follow from theMagnum to Cig 28 to the 35 and through the 38, you'll find where Don came up with the 41. Obviously he didn't start expanding from the base of a 27 Magnum.The 28 Cig was never used as a base, plug, or anything, to begin tooling of the 35. So there was no progression to the 41. Ask Brownie.

OneBadInjun
02-13-2010, 06:52 PM
[QUOTE=Racerguymiami;394935]Read this. If the original hull design has not been registered under the VHDPA of 2008 you can splash the hell out of it. Only 11 builders have registered their designs.
Please list the 11 builders. Thanks

MarylandMark
02-13-2010, 06:58 PM
Lot more than 11...

http://www.copyright.gov/vessels/list/index.html

VtSteve
02-13-2010, 08:00 PM
Carroll Shelby is the absolute last person in the business that should be part of a discussion of ethics and moralities. Loved the cars, but his business practices, past and present, would make the Mafia wince. He went downhill with the 30 frames issue, and it got worse from there.

truckwrench1
02-14-2010, 12:17 AM
quickly scanned and saw no one but nordic and wellcraft with any powerboats why is this ?