drive trim pump question, water in oil

[fund razor]

Hello,

I know that water can get in through the trim ram ends without oil leaking out. In my case, I have been washing the bilge with water. The SB side especially, as the milkshake bomb that went off when the prior engines failed seems to have been worse over there than on the port. I finally got the bilge clean enough to remove both drive trim pumps and pump brackets from the stringers. I notice that the seal between this pump and its resevoir is more loose than the port pump. It actually moves around a little, I suspect that water got in there during washing. The pumps were coated with oil, some of which I believe went back to the original owner. (Bad enough that I am replacing the primary 12v wires, as the jackets got oiled.)

My question is this: the color is about that of coffee with cream. The consistency is even. There seems to be just a little bit that leaked back out of the lines to/from the drive, also this color/consistency. (makes me think that this water/oil mix was pumped through the rams already.) When the boat arrived to me that SB drive would not raise, but I later found a bad butt connector on the primary 12v wire. So...it wasn't getting power when it arrived to me.
Should I have those rams looked at? Or should I drain the oil out of the pump and refill and see what happens? I know that the water will cause problems, but if I got the boat this way, and the last guy never opened or checked the drive trim oil, there could be a water/oil mix down in the rams.
The drives are off and at the shop, (in storage) the power is out of the boat, but I could rig up electric off of a battery to the primary inputs of the pump motor and I could close the contact between the activation leads from the helm to simulate the action of the switch. This would let me test/empty the pump.

I don't think that alot of water got in there, just enough to make it slightly milky. The viscosity is still that of oil.

I understand that there is a rebuild kit for the rams with the o-rings and the scraper, etc. I have not rebuilt any yet.

Thanks for whatever you can add.

[Chris]

To the first comment in your post, I've never heard anything like that. Being in a hydraulics business, I'm pretty familiar with cylinders and seals, especially in outdoor applications. If it can prevent oil in the hundreds to thousands of PSI range from going out, water at atmospheric pressure isn't going in.

This is my general theory on all things boat- address all issues when they're the easiest to address. You have the engines out. Pull the pumps and go through them. Re-seal and replace the brushes. Flush the system. Do it now while you have the time and you're not missing a boating weekend.

[fund razor]

Thanks for the response Chris.
On the first comment.... makes sense. And the rams are not leaking externally.

Makes me think that the water got in through a loose seal between the pump body and the resevoir tank below.

I have pulled the pumps.

I think that it will take a Bravo manual to get me through the "going through them" part.
(and the replacing brushes part, too.) Maybe I will see if I can find a Bravo manual anywhere.

Btw.... on a side note: wtf is the size of the little brass nuts that hold the switch wires down to the pump body? They are almost 5/16th, but like a micron larger. But they are not 3/8s. They are not 8mm. They eventually were removed by a small cresent, because they were not the size of any wrench or nutdriver known to man. They appear to be 5 and a half/16ths. :)
1/4" too small
5/16" too small
3/8" too big
8mm too small
10mm too big.

[Ratickle]

thanks for the response chris.
On the first comment.... Makes sense. And the rams are not leaking externally.

Makes me think that the water got in through a loose seal between the pump body and the resevoir tank below.

I have pulled the pumps.

I think that it will take a bravo manual to get me through the "going through them" part.
(and the replacing brushes part, too.) maybe i will see if i can find a bravo manual anywhere.

Btw.... On a side note: Wtf is the size of the little brass nuts that hold the switch wires down to the pump body? They are almost 5/16th, but like a micron larger. But they are not 3/8s. They are not 8mm. They eventually were removed by a small cresent, because they were not the size of any wrench or nutdriver known to man. They appear to be 5 and a half/16ths. :)
1/4" too small
5/16" too small
3/8" too big
8mm too small
10mm too big.

11/32" ?

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

You said ,"when the boat arrived to you". It is new to you? It may have had a bad line replaced. Maybe you can drain and replace the fluid and not have a problem.

They only way water can get in without leaking is into the reservoir from inside the boat. I expect if the water got that high you would find other signs.

[fund razor]

11/32" ?

Aha. I have a missing wrench. :)

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

5 and 1/2 16th = 11/32:biggrinjester:

[fund razor]

You said ,"when the boat arrived to you". It is new to you? It may have had a bad line replaced. Maybe you can drain and replace the fluid and not have a problem.

They only way water can get in without leaking is into the reservoir from inside the boat. I expect if the water got that high you would find other signs.

The boat is new to me last fall. I think that the water got in inside the boat. But not from sinking. There are no other signs of sinking or filling up.

I am sure that I got it very wet from the hose before it was clean enough to even remove from the boat. Maybe the prior owner did too.

The exterior lines show very well. Maybe you are on to something with a replaced line at some point. Although the boat was never wet-slipped.

[fund razor]

5 and 1/2 16th = 11/32:biggrinjester:
Yes in deedy.

It has been a long couple of weeks. ;)

[fund razor]

Too bad Autozone doesn't sell Bravo 1 manuals. :(

[PARADOX]

Fund.. If you can, mind as well clean and "re-do" anything you can, now.
However, a little water and "milky" oil is not really catastrophic. The pumps will mix any water, condensation etc. with the oils during use. Make sure you fllush the system and bleed it before final use. Air is worse then a bit of mosture.

[Ratickle]

How many root causes are there to milky trim/tab pump oil?

On my starboard TRS pump the oil become milky after a season of leaving the boat in the water and will trim at a slower rate than the port. I always assumed a slight leak in a hose I can't find so in one direction or other it sucks water in.

[Ratickle]

Too bad Autozone doesn't sell Bravo 1 manuals. :(

Let me know if this is the right one.

http://www.tsgmarine.no/deler/manualer/drev/bravo/5%20A%20Oildyne%20Trim%20Pump.pdf

[fund razor]

Fund.. If you can, mind as well clean and "re-do" anything you can, now..
Absolutely. The list includes:
new battery cables
blast and repaint battery boxes
new fuel hoses
clean and repaint bilge
clean and repaint drive trim pump brackets
new primary 12v wire to drive trim pumps
clean transom assemblies
rewire and replace bilge pumps (sucked milkshake)
remove, repaint and re-install bilge blower + new blower hose
replace lower shift cables
replace all aluminum/rubber cable and hose mount straps
remove, clean, paint and re-install fresh water flush system
The tab trim pumps are fine. The hydraulic steering system is fine.
Adding oil coolers.

Also need to replace some missing nav lights and a pair of line tenders on the bow.


However, a little water and "milky" oil is not really catastrophic. The pumps will mix any water, condensation etc. with the oils during use. Make sure you fllush the system and bleed it before final use. Air is worse then a bit of mosture.
I figured that water doesn't compress. But still.... see part A. :D

[fund razor]

Let me know if this is the right one.

http://www.tsgmarine.no/deler/manualer/drev/bravo/5%20A%20Oildyne%20Trim%20Pump.pdf

Hey hey hey.... that looks like it.

My two pumps are not identical. The port has a slightly taller pump body. But essentially the same design. Same res design. I think that one was replaced at some point. I have a feeling that the SB is original and the port is a very close replacement version.

Thanks very much for that pdf Paul.
I will save it to my drive.

[fund razor]

pics

[fund razor]

some days a 10/32" wrench is just not quite enough. ;) :)

[fund razor]

wow, those shoes are much dirtier in real life. :)

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I doubt it got the creamy by condensation or your cleaning the bilge. I suspect it has been that way a while.

[fund razor]

Ok, thanks to the advice and the great pdf from Paul, I am placing this part of the project on back burner for a rainy day and I am gonna do some good weather stuff. Like a final degreasing. I'll print that pdf for a bench guide.

Edit: Just caught Jim's post, good point.

[fund razor]

I doubt it got the creamy by condensation or your cleaning the bilge. I suspect it has been that way a while.

That is what I was thinking. The consistency was too even. Like blended.

[Ratickle]

I doubt it got the creamy by condensation or your cleaning the bilge. I suspect it has been that way a while.

Jim, can you tell if that's the correct manual?

[fund razor]

Jim, can you tell if that's the correct manual?

Comparing the manual to the actual unit seems to check out.

Pump of concern is on the left, the right is his taller brother.

[MacGyver]

Too bad Autozone doesn't sell Bravo 1 manuals. :(


You must have missed my thread on all these Merc manuals ;)


http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6879

[fund razor]

You must have missed my thread on all these Merc manuals ;)


http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6879

I did. :blush5:

[Ratickle]

You must have missed my thread on all these Merc manuals ;)


http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6879

I have that bookmarked, but did not see the trim-pump for a Bravo listed there. Did I miss it?

[MacGyver]

I have that bookmarked, but did not see the trim-pump for a Bravo listed there. Did I miss it?

No. The link you provided is just a part of manual #11 (Section 5). The entire manual #11 covers all Bravo's 1988-1998; drives, pumps, steering and all :)

[fund razor]

Wicked awesome. :)

[Ratickle]

No. The link you provided is just a part of manual #11 (Section 5). The entire manual #11 covers all Bravo's 1988-1998; drives, pumps, steering and all :)

Thanks

[fund razor]

Thanks again you guys.
The info that was shared with me yesterday was very helpful.

[jhenrie]

I had a hose once that the stainless bend before the flarenut connection at the ram split. res got milky and I didn't find it til the hose started leaking a couple weeks later. Just a thought to check the hoses and fittings real good.

[fund razor]

Ok, an update:

I got a chance to pull the resevoirs off of the pumps and found that in boths cases, the filters had disintegrated and become part of a light colored goo at the bottom of the res.

In one case.... the filter is half gone. WTF?? can you buy the filter as a separate part number? About the size of a nickel.

Also... aren't there supposed to be filters on both sides? The pdf that Paul provided shows two filters.

Thanks.

[fund razor]

help? :)

[Ratickle]

help? :)

I saw the question and did not know the answer. I read the manual and looked at the pics. Seems to go both ways, confusing.

PM Jim and Chris both to let them know you're looking for the answer.

[Ratickle]

Just tryin to help, I'm real curious myself....

See anything here that might assist?


http://www.sterndrives.com/trimpumpkits.html


http://www.psepmarineparts.biz/store/mercruiser_power_trim_pumps_and_components.htm

[Ratickle]

Maybe just buy one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/%23%23%23%23MERCRUISER-TILT-%2F-TRIM-LIFT-PUMP--(-NEW-STYLE-)%23%23%23%23_W0QQitemZ190315376782QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090618?IMSfp=TL09 06181710002r8554

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Filter # is 35-89496. Yes two.

[fund razor]

Filter # is 35-89496. Yes two.

Thanks Paul and Jim.

I appreciate it. Especially the part number, Jim.

I will google that part number and see if I can find a source.

Wow, were those sterndrives.com prices kind of high or what?

Just curious, Jim.... have you seen many of these filters break down and become suspended in the oil?

[Ratickle]

Thanks Paul and Jim.

I appreciate it. Especially the part number, Jim.

I will google that part number and see if I can find a source.

Wow, were those sterndrives.com prices kind of high or what?

Just curious, Jim.... have you seen many of these filters break down and become suspended in the oil?

One of the things that caught my eye, you said your two pumps were slightly different, and the two pumps listed and explained were slightly different in looks, but completely different in how they worked.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I have seen them smashed, torn and off before.

Did you ever figure out where the water came from?

[fund razor]

One of the things that caught my eye, you said your two pumps were slightly different, and the two pumps listed and explained were slightly different in looks, but completely different in how they worked.

Once I got them on the bench and started opening them up I realized that they are essentially the same pump. One was mounted higher than the other on the bracket and at first it made me think that the pump body was taller. It wasn't.

[fund razor]

I have seen them smashed, torn and off before.

Did you ever figure out where the water came from?

Never did figure out where the water came from. But there are tiny vent holes in the lids, and I am thinking maybe years of a little intrusion at a time. They were mounted under the hatch/boat divide. No oil leaks out, and my smart friends tell me that if oil isn't coming out.... there is no way that water is getting in. There were small light colored blobs in the bottom of the res that must be liquified filter screen. I am not sure what else it could be.

I want to take a pic of the half-gone filter today. I'll post it.