PDA

View Full Version : Let's try a different approach



T2x
05-15-2009, 09:48 AM
Now that we know what doesn't work. Let's open up a discussion as to what the sport needs. Let's leave out current projects, loyalties and agenda's and allow them to rise or fall based on their own merits and/or lack thereof.

Let's take a clean sheet of paper, and project what, in a perfect world, the sport should look like. This will do one of two things; produce a vision that a bunch of people can get behind, or show that the diversity of concepts in the minds of those with interest in the sport is too varied for anything but the small time, localised, weekend warrior events we currently see.

I will not participate beyond simply opening the topic. This is about your ideas...not mine. Instead I will simply answer questions on the "T2x set me straight" thread if someone needs historical reference material.

Have at it and good luck.

T2x

Pete B
05-15-2009, 10:16 AM
Great Idea, 3 classes only, Cat, SVL and Outboard class!

Fast Shafts
05-15-2009, 11:06 AM
On the clean sheet of paper I'd like to see:
1) One set of common rules.
If I'm going to Florida on vacation, I'd like to bring my boat there to race. I don't want to change numbers classes or organizations.
2) One registration/member fees.

Drag racing has dozens of classes, just as Offshore, but only 2 or 3 that get TV air time. Offshore should have 2 or 3 primere classes which get TV time. However there is still a place in Offshore for smaller boats/classes. I think only the "designated" classes should get air time. In drag racing, not many care about VW supercharged class-therefor they get no TV time. Offshore should be the same-develop the primere class, if you want TV step up to the designated class! This doesn't deminish the smaller classes-but leaves the door open if you step up. Often at local tracks, (just like offshore) there are more "field filler" cars (P class boats) than "pro cars" (big cats).

Wahoo 214
05-15-2009, 12:54 PM
Cat, SV, OB. 100 boats, qualifiing to make race, TV, $100,000 pursue, 8 races a year, get paid to race, huge sponsorship $$. Oh and my own reality show too.

If that don't work I am more than happy with what we have in the OPA

Ratickle
05-15-2009, 01:00 PM
Cat, SV, OB. 100 boats, qualifiing to make race, TV, $100,000 pursue, 8 races a year, get paid to race, huge sponsorship $$. Oh and my own reality show too.

If that don't work I am more than happy with what we have in the OPA

I really think that's possible. But the purse would be larger......

Mike A.
05-15-2009, 01:29 PM
There are two different for profit business models to choose from: 1) membership based, where the sanctioning organization caters to its members who pay for the benefits; 2) fan based, where the sanctioning organization caters to fans. There is a huge difference between the two. APBA LLC's business objective was to create both over 10 years much like NASCAR, which does have numerous classes and regional series but two primary national circuits. There is no way to have #2 without a boycott proof premier class and lots of capital, and you cannot have #1 without lots of capital.

If you want a perfect not for profit member based organization then look no further than OPA.

2TR
05-15-2009, 01:42 PM
Supercat Light (630hp limit) * ask Crockett as to why 630hp he would explain it better

Superstock Cat O/B: Current rules would work (maybe add a weight/power ratio to bring out some older SS boats.



Super Vee (630hp limit) * See above

SuperVee Lite: What's running now seems to work.


Two Cat Classes and 2 V Classes to run Sunday and Run your feeder classes or "P" races Saturday.

smokeybandit
05-15-2009, 02:04 PM
Clean slate. No baggage.

Make it as simple as possible. Either cater to a TV audience or live spectators. I don't think you can do both in offshore. My personal choice would be the TV audience since it is much broader and i would get to see a lot more races. With that being said, there really would be no need for the circle racing. Get a ton of helicopters in the air and do some real offshore racing. 2 to 3 classes. Worst case would be 4. Men (and women) against machine and the elements. Make it as easy as possible for teams to build a fan base. Merchandising. How about revenue sharing? That way everyone gets a piece of the pie.

Ratickle
05-15-2009, 02:27 PM
Clean slate. No baggage.

Make it as simple as possible. Either cater to a TV audience or live spectators. I don't think you can do both in offshore. My personal choice would be the TV audience since it is much broader and i would get to see a lot more races. With that being said, there really would be no need for the circle racing. Get a ton of helicopters in the air and do some real offshore racing. 2 to 3 classes. Worst case would be 4. Men (and women) against machine and the elements. Make it as easy as possible for teams to build a fan base. Merchandising. How about revenue sharing? That way everyone gets a piece of the pie.

Why do you think you can't do both? I visited Key West when they ran the longer races. Cameramen on the choppers, and some big screen TV's in the pits etc would go a long way.

But, even at St Croix you hear complaints when the boats go out of sight around the upriver bend. Or when the flip occured in the far back corner at the Worlds last November. If you want to charge fans, you need a show. To me, a show consists of two things only. Entertainers and audience. Figure out how to maximize both, and you'll be doing great.

Heck, people (me included) pay $350 per ticket to see gay guys play with lions and tigers in Vegas for a couple hours......:sifone:

1waterboy1
05-16-2009, 10:31 AM
There are two different for profit business models to choose from: 1) membership based, where the sanctioning organization caters to its members who pay for the benefits; 2) fan based, where the sanctioning organization caters to fans. There is a huge difference between the two. APBA LLC's business objective was to create both over 10 years much like NASCAR, which does have numerous classes and regional series but two primary national circuits. There is no way to have #2 without a boycott proof premier class and lots of capital, and you cannot have #1 without lots of capital.

If you want a perfect not for profit member based organization then look no further than OPA.

Excellent points Mike.The thing that I was most impressed with during the APBA LLC era, was the fact that you and your staff were looking to proven professional motorsports organizations like NASCAR for guidance in how to take our sport to the "next level".There is no doubt that every aspect of offshore powerboat racing was at its best during that time.I feel fortunate to have raced a little during that time;and certainly hope the sport can get headed back in that direction.

I think we can follow NHRA's lead with a PRO and SPORTSMAN CLASS structure.As Fastshafts pointed out, NHRA has a couple of featured PRO CLASSES(Top Fuel Dragster,Top Fuel Funny Car and Pro Stock); and many,many SPORTSMAN CLASSES.NASCAR has three featured national touring series classes(Sprint Cup,Nationwide,and Camping World Trucks);and many regional and local series and classes.

Lets get back to two featured PRO CLASSES:Super Cat and Super Vee with built to spec 525 horsepower motors and dry exhaust so they sound good!Build these classes up to to 20 or more boats and put them on smaller courses in the ocean with both right and left turns.The varying water conditions of the ocean will level the playing field and create exciting and entertaining racing for the racers and the fans.The PRO CLASSES could be featured on Sunday during a race weekend.All televsion coverage and marketing and promotion should be focused on these classes.You want to be part of the big show;you have to build a boat for one these classes period!There currently are way too many 'big boat" classes that look the same with one or two boats per class and no competition.Two classes with boats that look completely different is also easy to understand for even the most casual fan.The PRO CLASSES should be featured in a 8-10 race national circut and compete for "national high point champion" titles in each class.

SPORTSMAN CLASSES:anything and everything else...from single outboard vees to twin engine vees and cats that do not fit in Super Cat or Super Vee.There needs to be a uniform set of rules throughout all the regions and clubs.The emphasis of the SPORTSMAN CLASSES should be to increase participation through competitive and relatively affordabe racing.The SPORTSMAN CLASSES would race on Saturdays at national events;and also
at stand alone regional races in the Southeast,Northeast,Central and West.
The SPORTSMAN CLASSES could race in 4-8 race regional circuts, and compete for "regional high point champion" titles in each class...ie.. Class 6 Northeast High Point Champions"

Finally,have an end of the year "Nationals" (cant really call it a "Worlds" because there is not a common set of classes world wide)...somewhere warm like Key West,FL in November.

This format is not that far off what was successfull in the mid to late eighties before the split(s) in the sanctioning bodies.Back then, you had five PRO CLASSES(too many though)..Superboat,Open,Modified,Pro-Stock and Stock...and four SPORTSMAN CLASSES A,B,C & D.

Just an opinion...any thoughts???

Wazzup Racing
05-16-2009, 03:23 PM
There are two different for profit business models to choose from: 1) membership based, where the sanctioning organization caters to its members who pay for the benefits; 2) fan based, where the sanctioning organization caters to fans. There is a huge difference between the two. APBA LLC's business objective was to create both over 10 years much like NASCAR, which does have numerous classes and regional series but two primary national circuits. There is no way to have #2 without a boycott proof premier class and lots of capital, and you cannot have #1 without lots of capital.

If you want a perfect not for profit member based organization then look no further than OPA.

Hi Mike, Thanks for the kind words. Even though we are doing such a terrible job, I'll keep trying. Maybe some day we can be as good as Rich.

H2O Full Throttle
05-16-2009, 03:51 PM
From a media standpoint here is what I would like to see from any new assn, and this is based on what I have seen at the various races and series I have attended over the years.

* A dedicated press room where writers and photographers can have access to the internet. (Example - Class 1 in Doha we have two portacabins with hi speed internet access). This allows local media and nationals to update their websites immediately as well as send images back to the papers to meet deadlines.

* Have a helicopter available which is shared by media for each race or qualifying session. You would be surprised at the difference in quality of images this makes. Yes it may cost a couple of grand to do so but think about that front page shot on a local newspaper, would cost you a heck of a lot more to buy the ad space.

* For those regular journalists who commit to covering a series provide a hotel room for the couple of nights the race is on. Remember you are nuturing those who are going to write nice things about you and help spread the word.

* have your own series photographer and they provide the assn with large selection of images at the end of the day for journos and media outlets that done have anyone to attend the race. Class 1 and P1 do this and it increases media coverage by about 35%.

* Treat the media as a partner, not the enemy as Carbonell does. Without media coverage your sport wont grow and wont bring in new sponsors. They arent going to give you money for an event if no one is covering it and they are getting no exposure.

* Get the media out on jury boats etc if possible as the more images that are shot the better your chances of media coverage in magazines, news papers etc.

These are just a few thoughts.

Ned

Wardey
05-16-2009, 06:02 PM
Hi Mike, Thanks for the kind words. Even though we are doing such a terrible job, I'll keep trying. Maybe some day we can be as good as Rich.

What are you talking about ??? I think you are doing a fantastic job !!!! Congrats !!! Dave

Wazzup Racing
05-16-2009, 06:53 PM
You know Dave, I was referring to another Thread, where certain Mr know it alls, just never stop bashing the hard work of a lot of people. It just gets a little boring after a while.

Sean Stinson
05-19-2009, 09:26 PM
Sorry I was out of the loop for a few days my brain is mush I will voice some ideas later.....Sorry I cant give any first hand news from Marathon I just went through the trip from hell trying to get there and ended up with Fred Bob trailer repair taking all day and then some to do a repair in the land of "Deliverance" while making sure that I didn't hear dueling banjo's in the background somewhere!!!!!

Sean H
05-19-2009, 10:30 PM
Superstock and SuperVee Lite is race 1.
SuperCat and SuperVee is race 2.

Superstock is any 300 hp or less twin outboard cat 28-32'
SVL is any builder dyno'd and sealed 525 HP and any drive 27-32' single engine vee.
SuperVee is any dyno'd and sealed 800 HP. Any drive/rudder. 38-44' vee.
SuperCat is same engines as SV for cost reduction and simplicity. Any drive/rudder setup. 36-44' cat.

Obviously classes will have weight limits and engines will have strict build standards. All classes are canopied with certain minimum requirements.

Now back to reality.

Sean Stinson
05-19-2009, 11:06 PM
Superstock and SuperVee Lite is race 1.
SuperCat and SuperVee is race 2.

Superstock is any 300 hp or less twin outboard cat 28-32'
SVL is any builder dyno'd and sealed 525 HP and any drive 27-32' single engine vee.
SuperVee is any dyno'd and sealed 800 HP. Any drive/rudder. 38-44' vee.
SuperCat is same engines as SV for cost reduction and simplicity. Any drive/rudder setup. 36-44' cat.

Obviously classes will have weight limits and engines will have strict build standards. All classes are canopied with certain minimum requirements.

Now back to reality.

Whether you love them or hate the Turbine boats are here to stay and need their own class....

IMHO Super Vee and Super Cat can run in the same class just adjust the rule to allow the vee to have a level playing field....Add weight to the cat or something similar. I do agree that the engines need to be the same for both...

And what are you going to do with supercat lite step them up to the 800 hp engine Pkg??? I am liking the sound of this!!!!

Now then you can adopt OPA racing for your sportsman classes or Production classes!!!!

Sean Stinson
05-19-2009, 11:09 PM
Now then what are you going to do with the people that want to voice complaints and fold up stakes....

OldSchool
07-08-2009, 01:27 PM
Let's keep this one going.


Craig:)

Tague
07-08-2009, 07:39 PM
What I love most about this sport is not everyone can do it. I don't care how much time and money you have, boat racing can eat you alive. It's dangerous and expensive. I find it funny that so many people complain about how things are so messed up and racing would be better if it was different. The question is why aren't you (you, the one reading this)racing? I'll tell you why I am not this year...it's because I can't afford it, and as soon as I can afford to race I will, I don't care about the polictics, it's simple economics. We spent 165K on a doug wright and another 50k racing it. I never won a race in that boat and that didn't make me want to stop racing. I just honestly couldn't afford to do it any longer. I bet most of the complainers...and you know who you are....If you got your way and everything was just how you wanted, with rules you want and TV you want and all this other nonsense. You wouldn't go spend the $ to campaign a race team, you would sit behind a computer and complain about how it should be. Go race with a nascar team if there's more prize money and better tv and better everything. Go race F1 overseas where racers are treated like gods. Go race SS in Dubai with TV and 30k for first place.

Do you want racing to change? Do you want more prize money? Do you want a sponsor? Name anything you want.

Here is the list of what you need to do.

1. Buy a raceboat, Borrow a raceboat, Get a race boat. (that means anything from p5-turbine extreme)

2. Pay the fee's become part of some organization....SBI, UIM, P1, OSS, OPA Ect.

3. Follow the rules and guidlines of the organzation and class that were made by the racers before you. (I know is SS in SBI if we wanted a rule change everyone in the class had a vote and majority ruled)

4. Participate

5. Now you have the ability to create what you want from the inside.

6. It really is that simple...mark my words good racing is good racing, if 35 P-5 boats show up for a race. That would be better for the fans, TV and sponsors and everyone involved than anything that has happened in offshore in years. And the 165K plus 50K that we spent in 07, we could run a three boat team. Just like the real motorsports.


My 2 cents

Tague Estes

sbracing
07-08-2009, 08:27 PM
Excellent points Mike.The thing that I was most impressed with during the APBA LLC era, was the fact that you and your staff were looking to proven professional motorsports organizations like NASCAR for guidance in how to take our sport to the "next level".There is no doubt that every aspect of offshore powerboat racing was at its best during that time.I feel fortunate to have raced a little during that time;and certainly hope the sport can get headed back in that direction.

I think we can follow NHRA's lead with a PRO and SPORTSMAN CLASS structure.As Fastshafts pointed out, NHRA has a couple of featured PRO CLASSES(Top Fuel Dragster,Top Fuel Funny Car and Pro Stock); and many,many SPORTSMAN CLASSES.NASCAR has three featured national touring series classes(Sprint Cup,Nationwide,and Camping World Trucks);and many regional and local series and classes.

Lets get back to two featured PRO CLASSES:Super Cat and Super Vee with built to spec 525 horsepower motors and dry exhaust so they sound good!Build these classes up to to 20 or more boats and put them on smaller courses in the ocean with both right and left turns.The varying water conditions of the ocean will level the playing field and create exciting and entertaining racing for the racers and the fans.The PRO CLASSES could be featured on Sunday during a race weekend.All televsion coverage and marketing and promotion should be focused on these classes.You want to be part of the big show;you have to build a boat for one these classes period!There currently are way too many 'big boat" classes that look the same with one or two boats per class and no competition.Two classes with boats that look completely different is also easy to understand for even the most casual fan.The PRO CLASSES should be featured in a 8-10 race national circut and compete for "national high point champion" titles in each class.

SPORTSMAN CLASSES:anything and everything else...from single outboard vees to twin engine vees and cats that do not fit in Super Cat or Super Vee.There needs to be a uniform set of rules throughout all the regions and clubs.The emphasis of the SPORTSMAN CLASSES should be to increase participation through competitive and relatively affordabe racing.The SPORTSMAN CLASSES would race on Saturdays at national events;and also
at stand alone regional races in the Southeast,Northeast,Central and West.
The SPORTSMAN CLASSES could race in 4-8 race regional circuts, and compete for "regional high point champion" titles in each class...ie.. Class 6 Northeast High Point Champions"

Finally,have an end of the year "Nationals" (cant really call it a "Worlds" because there is not a common set of classes world wide)...somewhere warm like Key West,FL in November.

This format is not that far off what was successfull in the mid to late eighties before the split(s) in the sanctioning bodies.Back then, you had five PRO CLASSES(too many though)..Superboat,Open,Modified,Pro-Stock and Stock...and four SPORTSMAN CLASSES A,B,C & D.

Just an opinion...any thoughts???


I agree with the 2 Pro Class system, but would make the current OPA
bracket racing the sportsman series. Keeps the policing to a minimum.

Basically you are using Grand-Am Rolex Series model for your pro series
(2 classes DP fast, GT less fast) and NHRA Bracket racing model for your sportsman series. Two great organizations to copy from.

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-08-2009, 10:05 PM
Superstock and SuperVee Lite is race 1.
SuperCat and SuperVee is race 2.

Superstock is any 300 hp or less twin outboard cat 28-32'
SVL is any builder dyno'd and sealed 525 HP and any drive 27-32' single engine vee.
SuperVee is any dyno'd and sealed 800 HP. Any drive/rudder. 38-44' vee.
SuperCat is same engines as SV for cost reduction and simplicity. Any drive/rudder setup. 36-44' cat.

Obviously classes will have weight limits and engines will have strict build standards. All classes are canopied with certain minimum requirements.

Now back to reality.

Race them on Sunday

Saturday race 4 Bracket classes in two races.

Friday Have Testing and Extreme Boat Shoot outs

XtremeRacing
07-08-2009, 10:27 PM
What I love most about this sport is not everyone can do it. I don't care how much time and money you have, boat racing can eat you alive. It's dangerous and expensive. I find it funny that so many people complain about how things are so messed up and racing would be better if it was different. The question is why aren't you (you, the one reading this)racing? I'll tell you why I am not this year...it's because I can't afford it, and as soon as I can afford to race I will, I don't care about the polictics, it's simple economics. We spent 165K on a doug wright and another 50k racing it. I never won a race in that boat and that didn't make me want to stop racing. I just honestly couldn't afford to do it any longer. I bet most of the complainers...and you know who you are....If you got your way and everything was just how you wanted, with rules you want and TV you want and all this other nonsense. You wouldn't go spend the $ to campaign a race team, you would sit behind a computer and complain about how it should be. Go race with a nascar team if there's more prize money and better tv and better everything. Go race F1 overseas where racers are treated like gods. Go race SS in Dubai with TV and 30k for first place.

Do you want racing to change? Do you want more prize money? Do you want a sponsor? Name anything you want.

Here is the list of what you need to do.

1. Buy a raceboat, Borrow a raceboat, Get a race boat. (that means anything from p5-turbine extreme)

2. Pay the fee's become part of some organization....SBI, UIM, P1, OSS, OPA Ect.

3. Follow the rules and guidlines of the organzation and class that were made by the racers before you. (I know is SS in SBI if we wanted a rule change everyone in the class had a vote and majority ruled)

4. Participate

5. Now you have the ability to create what you want from the inside.

6. It really is that simple...mark my words good racing is good racing, if 35 P-5 boats show up for a race. That would be better for the fans, TV and sponsors and everyone involved than anything that has happened in offshore in years. And the 165K plus 50K that we spent in 07, we could run a three boat team. Just like the real motorsports.


My 2 cents

Tague Estes

That pretty much sums it up, great post.
If teams raced more and stayed out of the politics , we would all be better off. The powers to be know what they need to do and thats not going to change.

phragle
07-08-2009, 10:38 PM
what racing needs??? It needs people to remember why they race, what drew them to it to begin with. Your not going to get rich racng boats, your financial statement will most likely be negativley impacted. your not going to get famous racing..

people race because they ENJOY it.

stop bickering, stop fighting, stop reinventing the wheel, stop making racing into a pain in the ass. Go racing and have fun. Fun is contagious. Why are we losing racers to poker running?? because they percieve it as more enjoyable. All I read is this orginazation sucks, that one is a mess.... this problem, that problem, waaaa waaaa waaaa....

Who in their right mind would get into racing when after a little research they come to the opinion that racing is miserable and it sucks.

Go out, have fun and it will grow again, continue the misery and there is not enough prozac in the world to cure the depression that will kill the sport.

Ratickle
07-08-2009, 10:50 PM
I'll tell you why I am not this year...it's because I can't afford it, and as soon as I can afford to race I will, I don't care about the polictics, it's simple economics. We spent 165K on a doug wright and another 50k racing it. I never won a race in that boat and that didn't make me want to stop racing. I just honestly couldn't afford to do it any longer. 1. Buy a raceboat, Borrow a raceboat, Get a race boat. (that means anything from p5-turbine extreme)

2. Pay the fee's become part of some organization....SBI, UIM, P1, OSS, OPA Ect.

Tague Estes

Here is where I believe the entire point needs to be clarified.

You are not racing because you can no longer afford the expense, but you say go buy, borrow, steal and race a boat.

You also say pay the fee's for an org. If you can't afford to pay the fees for an org and race, why can the rest of us. The reason for me, there is no reason to expect the boat I bought a couple of years ago to be legal this year or next. And there is no reason to expect the organization to be there to help support the race boat I purchased to race. Or maybe we should be expected to join every org to be safe? The travel expenses kill someone like me.

If there was one org, If there were two or three run what you brung, two to three lower classes ie; SVL, Outboard Cat, Outboard Vee, and two to three major classes ie: Open Vee, Open Cat, Turbine. Then it falls into place.

The oldtimers, (I remember the first turbine Unlimited, I knocked it), knock Turbines, but if it weren't for Geico, JBS, etc. There would be no national publicity at all....I think they are owed a note of appreciation, not a knock.

Racing became very expensive when it went away from the regional series with a national and world championship. It needs to get back to that with identical classes..... Who in the Midwest doesn't remember the SilverCup series? Out west, Nordskog and POPBRA?

Those are the only reasons I don't currently own a race boat and race. And I've been researching this for 3 years and looking at boats. And many of you current racers have been very helpful, but it's hard to convince myself to spend the coin when I can't even get an agreement on what an SVL should weigh....

Anyway, you guys are talking, I'm listening, so b-tch slap me now....:sifone:

inbetween
07-08-2009, 11:12 PM
Lets get back to two featured PRO CLASSES:Super Cat and Super Vee with built to spec 525 horsepower motors and dry exhaust so they sound good!Build these classes up to to 20 or more boats and put them on smaller courses in the ocean with both right and left turns.The varying water conditions of the ocean will level the playing field and create exciting and entertaining racing for the racers and the fans.The PRO CLASSES could be featured on Sunday during a race weekend.All televsion coverage and marketing and promotion should be focused on these classes.You want to be part of the big show;you have to build a boat for one these classes period!There currently are way too many 'big boat" classes that look the same with one or two boats per class and no competition.Two classes with boats that look completely different is also easy to understand for even the most casual fan.The PRO CLASSES should be featured in a 8-10 race national circut and compete for "national high point champion" titles in each class.

SPORTSMAN CLASSES:anything and everything else...from single outboard vees to twin engine vees and cats that do not fit in Super Cat or Super Vee.There needs to be a uniform set of rules throughout all the regions and clubs.The emphasis of the SPORTSMAN CLASSES should be to increase participation through competitive and relatively affordabe racing.The SPORTSMAN CLASSES would race on Saturdays at national events;and also
at stand alone regional races in the Southeast,Northeast,Central and West.
The SPORTSMAN CLASSES could race in 4-8 race regional circuts, and compete for "regional high point champion" titles in each class...ie.. Class 6 Northeast High Point Champions"

Finally,have an end of the year "Nationals" (cant really call it a "Worlds" because there is not a common set of classes world wide)...somewhere warm like Key West,FL in November.


As a fan, I like than idea similar to this. Keep it simple.

A simplified class structure for the "main event", such as one cat class and one v class, would greatly improve the casual fans ability to watch and enjoy a race. They would know who's winning instead of trying to figure out who's racing who. There are currently too many classes where the boats all look the same, sound the same, similar speeds, numbered the same and they're all on the course at the same time.

I'm a long time fan, been watching since the 70's as a very young kid, and it's still confusing at times. And is it really racing if you're the only one in your class?

Tague
07-09-2009, 07:56 AM
[QUOTE=Ratickle;263875]Here is where I believe the entire point needs to be clarified.

You are not racing because you can no longer afford the expense, but you say go buy, borrow, steal and race a boat.

You also say pay the fee's for an org. If you can't afford to pay the fees for an org and race, why can the rest of us. The reason for me, there is no reason to expect the boat I bought a couple of years ago to be legal this year or next. And there is no reason to expect the organization to be there to help support the race boat I purchased to race. Or maybe we should be expected to join every org to be safe? The travel expenses kill someone like me.



QUOTE]

So racing needs to be free?....I can't afford to race...that is true..but I am not making claims as to why the organizations have forced me out of the sport...Most are a for profit business. Just like every other motorsport that you try and compare boat racing to.

To my knowledge no organization has ever just made rules...members in the class make the rules. I think that you are talking about being competitive...there are plenty of supervee's out there that are not as fast as some of the new one's...The reason they aren't racing is not because they not legal....It's because they don't like to loose. Just like every other motorsport...nobody's running a 10 year old F1 car. But take SS, Steve and Lee are running an almost 10 year old boat and had one hell of a race with Ryan in his much newer Skater.

If the organization doesn't have people to race then they are out of business....There are a select few who make there living at this and they promote themselves..They don't complain about all this...they go out on there own and get sponsors themselves...If it was as Nascar and all other major motorsports and professional 95% of racers wouldn't be racing...that's why I say go buy a nascar and see how well you do...or say well I would race the nextell cup seriers but the travel and fee's are too expensive...you can't have it both ways

Ratickle
07-09-2009, 08:21 AM
Maybe you're correct, I don't think so though for many of the classes.

How many boats out there do not currently race head to head because rules were changed to give the manufacturer, or someone, a class the boat could win???

We can't even seem to get the rules for Production Classes the same between orgs....

Should I set a boat up for 75mph or 80mph, (or whatever the diff is currently).

If these were the same, (SVL or Production), I could have had a season this year running in Harrison, St Clair, Michigan City, LOTO, Lake Cumberland, and one of the Northeast Races (maybe 2), plus the Worlds without, as you say, spending more than I can afford to or having to get huge sponsers to cover a hundred thousand of expenses. Sure it would have been three different orgs. But there would have been one more boat at 7 or 8 races. Plus, most likely the total expense would have been in the 80 to 100 range (plus boat of course).

XtremeRacing
07-09-2009, 08:59 AM
We can't even seem to get the rules for Production Classes the same between orgs....

Should I set a boat up for 75mph or 80mph, (or whatever the diff is currently).

SBI and OPA P class speed are the same just a different GPS not that hard if you really wanted to race.

Tague
07-09-2009, 09:11 AM
(How many boats out there do not currently race head to head because rules were changed to give the manufacturer, or someone, a class the boat could win???)

Now we're getting somewhere...people got out of the sport like me, for one reason or another...and now want to come back. But people that have continued to race and supported there organization have made changes to the rules to better suit there class. Now your boat will not be as competitive. In my opinion these boats have a place in P class.

(We can't even seem to get the rules for Production Classes the same between orgs....
Should I set a boat up for 75mph or 80mph, (or whatever the diff is currently).)

I have only raced with SBI and don't know the P-Class rules of all the other organizations. But I would bet any legal P-1 through P-5, could be made legal and competitive with setup and testing with all orgainizations.

As for the expense of running all the organizations I don't know all the costs but right now there are 2 boats for sale that I know of that are p-5 legal.

Expenses for SBI
Fixed costs
20K for boat, motor trailer.
10K in spare parts.
$600 equiment fee for the year
$700 for two race memberships.

$31,300 for year.

$300 Travel and from race
$300 3 nights in a hotel
$600 entry fee
$200 fuel in boat for testing and racing
$1000 stuff I'm forgetting

$2400 per race


Find 3 friends that are in the same position as you and create a team. (this is what I am trying to do for next season)

the 4 of you split the boat costs. 31,300/4=$7825 take a loan and pay it over 12 months $650 a month plus interests and at the end of the year the for of you own the boat outright and next season you decide what to do.


There are 8 races for SBI, split it up 4 and 4. $2400/2=$1200 each.

There you go...this what I would do if I could afford it, right now I can't but I'm working on it. And no matter what the rules or organizations say... It's still to expensive for me and my friends, even with prize money, TV, Fans, you name it. The fixed costs are still up there. Boat racing isn't for everyone.

Ratickle
07-09-2009, 09:12 AM
We can't even seem to get the rules for Production Classes the same between orgs....

Should I set a boat up for 75mph or 80mph, (or whatever the diff is currently).

SBI and OPA P class speed are the same just a different GPS not that hard if you really wanted to race.

OSS is different, correct?

And aren't the sizes different also???

MarylandMark
07-09-2009, 09:21 AM
Q- Why does one think it takes so long to announce the winners?

A- nobody know who is racing who in which class under which org

Not many more than the the 300 or so people directly involved have a clue who is racing who. To add on to that they don't have a clue because they don't care enough to try to learn (I'm in this group).

KISS- keep it simple stupid!

Here is one simple idea:

Obviously there is lingering questions on how many classes. For now (and I would say stick with it in the future as well) how about making the main color in each class paint their boat the same color. Still have multi-colored sponsor logos and the like; talking the main color or gel-coat or whatever. Got 8 classes? Who cares- I and every other idiot knows the red boat is racing the red boat, the blue boat is racing the blue boat, etc

I know- I'm good at spending other peoples money but IF you get a product fans like they will be paying you for you to show it to them (ie- professional paid boat racing)...

Ratickle
07-09-2009, 09:28 AM
Here's what I have.

Class 500 OPA, 75mph maximum speed GPS, 30' maximum size, Vees only
Class 400 OPA, 85mph maximum speed GPS, Vees only


SBI P5, 75mph maximum speed GPS, 30' and under single engine
SBI P4, 85mph maximun speed GPS, no limitations


Class 4 OSS, 65mph average calculated plus timed, single engine only or twin outboard 24' to 30'
Class 3 OSS, 75mph average calculated plus timed, no limitations
Class 2 OSS, 85mph average calculated plus timed, no limitations


Have I read the rules wrong?

Ratickle
07-09-2009, 09:37 AM
There you go...this what I would do if I could afford it, right now I can't but I'm working on it. And no matter what the rules or organizations say... It's still to expensive for me and my friends, even with prize money, TV, Fans, you name it. The fixed costs are still up there. Boat racing isn't for everyone.


I currently have a boat that with a simple switch from TRS to Konrad would probably be a competitive 85mph prodution class Vee. So, the boat expense isn't much.

I also believe, from talking with people, even in this day and age I could get 10 $5000 sponsers if I committed to racing a 10 race season. The other half would come out of my pocket, but if I were competitive, I'm sure I'd get that covered.

I would personally rather race non-bracket and trade the boat, or one of the other ones, for an SVL, but the rules for the different orgs are different and OPA doesn't have the class. I was also watching stock outboards, but OPA doesn't have the class and Steve Quick thought it would be a slight bit dumb, (not his exact words:)), for somone to start racing in a cat who has only owned Vee's.

MarylandMark
07-09-2009, 09:37 AM
"Racing" with speed limits- that makes me giggle every time

Ratickle
07-09-2009, 09:40 AM
"Racing" with speed limits- that makes me giggle every time

I know what you mean, however....


It keeps the cost down for those who race 2 or 3 races a year locally and can help find future racers for the non-bracket (drag-racing) classes.

Chris
07-09-2009, 09:58 AM
Racing with "speed limits" is the great equalizer. It means that a guy with a few-year-old boat can compete and win. It also means that you can't buy your way into a championship so easily.

You wanna' know how the sport ends up with so many organizations, classes and fractures? Guys shopping to see where they're the most competitive with the boats they already own. If you look at the guys winning at OPA, they're most often the more experienced guys. It takes skill and knowledge, not just who has the most expensive boat.

The GPS classes in boat racing are dramatically different than breakout brackets in drag racing. When that first started, I remember smoke pouring off of car's tires the last 100 feet before the finish line. These boats are set up to run on that number. I think a better analogy is the restrictions NASCAR puts on stock cars- or even the Indy cars. You could make it more complicated to manage top speeds, as they do, or you can give the guys a number and a GPS box.

Most of all, you can't tell from the shore. And isn't the core solution to the issues of racing getting people- fans and sponsors- interested?

Ratickle
07-09-2009, 10:05 AM
Racing with "speed limits" is the great equalizer. It means that a guy with a few-year-old boat can compete and win. It also means that you can't buy your way into a championship so easily.

You wanna' know how the sport ends up with so many organizations, classes and fractures? Guys shopping to see where they're the most competitive with the boats they already own. If you look at the guys winning at OPA, they're most often the more experienced guys. It takes skill and knowledge, not just who has the most expensive boat.

The GPS classes in boat racing are dramatically different than breakout brackets in drag racing. When that first started, I remember smoke pouring off of car's tires the last 100 feet before the finish line. These boats are set up to run on that number. I think a better analogy is the restrictions NASCAR puts on stock cars- or even the Indy cars. You could make it more complicated to manage top speeds, as they do, or you can give the guys a number and a GPS box.

Most of all, you can't tell from the shore. And isn't the core solution to the issues of racing getting people- fans and sponsors- interested?

I've seen boats crawling at the end of laps also.......:)

rchevelle71
07-09-2009, 10:08 AM
(How many boats out there do not currently race head to head because rules were changed to give the manufacturer, or someone, a class the boat could win???)

Now we're getting somewhere...people got out of the sport like me, for one reason or another...and now want to come back. But people that have continued to race and supported there organization have made changes to the rules to better suit there class. Now your boat will not be as competitive. In my opinion these boats have a place in P class.

(We can't even seem to get the rules for Production Classes the same between orgs....
Should I set a boat up for 75mph or 80mph, (or whatever the diff is currently).)

I have only raced with SBI and don't know the P-Class rules of all the other organizations. But I would bet any legal P-1 through P-5, could be made legal and competitive with setup and testing with all orgainizations.

As for the expense of running all the organizations I don't know all the costs but right now there are 2 boats for sale that I know of that are p-5 legal.

Expenses for SBI
Fixed costs
20K for boat, motor trailer.
10K in spare parts.
$600 equiment fee for the year
$700 for two race memberships.

$31,300 for year.

$300 Travel and from race
$300 3 nights in a hotel
$600 entry fee
$200 fuel in boat for testing and racing
$1000 stuff I'm forgetting

$2400 per race


Find 3 friends that are in the same position as you and create a team. (this is what I am trying to do for next season)

the 4 of you split the boat costs. 31,300/4=$7825 take a loan and pay it over 12 months $650 a month plus interests and at the end of the year the for of you own the boat outright and next season you decide what to do.


There are 8 races for SBI, split it up 4 and 4. $2400/2=$1200 each.

There you go...this what I would do if I could afford it, right now I can't but I'm working on it. And no matter what the rules or organizations say... It's still to expensive for me and my friends, even with prize money, TV, Fans, you name it. The fixed costs are still up there. Boat racing isn't for everyone.


I like your thinking, unfortunately that is too much for me right now also, but the way you explain it makes it seem affordable for some.

Ratickle
07-09-2009, 10:28 AM
I like your thinking, unfortunately that is too much for me right now also, but the way you explain it makes it seem affordable for some.

My opinion is it's affordable for anyone who can afford two boats with no assistance. If you take the expense of buying the boat out of the above scenario, add 1/2 the costs repaid by sponsors, you're there.....

The raceboat is definitely able to get sponsors to offset the race expenses if you can afford the boat (in the smaller classes)......

MarylandMark
07-09-2009, 10:53 AM
Racing with "speed limits" is the great equalizer.

Water, testing, setup, experience, etc should do that. Match the machines- HP/LB ratio, LOA/HP or whatever. I don't know what works or doesn't in this realm. I don't know boat racing so I'll say cars- watching a ZR1 Vette run 55MPH is boring after 5 minutes even if the the chick behind the wheel is naked. Watching a dude running the same car 168MPH is exciting even if he looks like Catmando.

20 year old resin bucket? You may win OC, MD since it is an ocean race.

Brand new Fountain? You may win Cambridge, MD since it is a protected water race.

Top Banana
07-09-2009, 02:06 PM
Thought I would share this with you. This is a letter from Betty Cook to me, back in the 70's. She is writing about the problems we are having in offshore racing and some possible solutions.

Betty and Howard Arneson and I, tried to get something really radical going back then.......we actually thought there might be some merit in having a doctor on a helicopter over the racers...just in case. We were voted down.

Everything wasn't as sunny and glory filled as you might believe, back in the day.

Tague
07-09-2009, 02:13 PM
It is my understanding that p-class racing was started so that the poker run guy or the weekend warrior had a place to race. Because as I said before it is not for everyone. P class allows you to get your start and see if you like racing with basically a pleasure boat. And when your ready to made the investment to not gps race then you can pick the class or group that you want to race with. Or stick to P-Class for some it is a lot more fun.

As for the cost of a boat...I found a p-boat for sale for $4500.00
http://miami.craigslist.org/brw/boa/1239900646.html

Ratickle
07-09-2009, 02:33 PM
It is my understanding that p-class racing was started so that the poker run guy or the weekend warrior had a place to race. Because as I said before it is not for everyone. P class allows you to get your start and see if you like racing with basically a pleasure boat. And when your ready to made the investment to not gps race then you can pick the class or group that you want to race with. Or stick to P-Class for some it is a lot more fun.

As for the cost of a boat...I found a p-boat for sale for $4500.00
http://miami.craigslist.org/brw/boa/1239900646.html

I agree with P class as it pertains to someone who is not going to travel much and can really race their "pleasure" boat two or three times a year. But, as I said, we can't even get those rules identical. Or is my shortened version of the rules wrong?

If we want boat count, (and why the heck wouldn't we), we need to standardize the rules. This year, not next after the changes, I could have raced OSS in Cumberland, Oss in LOTO, OPA in St Clair, OPA in Harrison, and SBI in Michigan City within an 10 hour drive. Plus grabbed a couple more OPA races, and 1 more SBI race, if I were willing to drive 12 hours.

Then made the long haul to the worlds.

But only if the rules had been standardized.

sbracing
07-09-2009, 03:00 PM
Water, testing, setup, experience, etc should do that. Match the machines- HP/LB ratio, LOA/HP or whatever. I don't know what works or doesn't in this realm. I don't know boat racing so I'll say cars- watching a ZR1 Vette run 55MPH is boring after 5 minutes even if the the chick behind the wheel is naked. Watching a dude running the same car 168MPH is exciting even if he looks like Catmando.

20 year old resin bucket? You may win OC, MD since it is an ocean race.

Brand new Fountain? You may win Cambridge, MD since it is a protected water race.

Two observations:

1 - matching the machines involves more officials ,inspections and teardowns.

2 - if you have ever been to any car race, it is the door to door racing that
makes it exciting (as a fan or racer), not necessarily the top speed.

Chris
07-09-2009, 03:03 PM
Water, testing, setup, experience, etc should do that. Match the machines- HP/LB ratio, LOA/HP or whatever. I don't know what works or doesn't in this realm. I don't know boat racing so I'll say cars- watching a ZR1 Vette run 55MPH is boring after 5 minutes even if the the chick behind the wheel is naked. Watching a dude running the same car 168MPH is exciting even if he looks like Catmando.

20 year old resin bucket? You may win OC, MD since it is an ocean race.

Brand new Fountain? You may win Cambridge, MD since it is a protected water race.

Billy Martin won last year's Cambridge race with a 30-year-old Cigarette with a back seat, chrome horns on the deck and rod holders in the gunwhales. Then he buzzed the dock.
I've seen alot of racing and it ranks up there as one of my favorite moments.

Back to the topic- that has been a major issue with class racing- one manufacturer comes up with something and instantly makes everyone else obsolete. So everyone else either needs a new $400K boat or thet get used to losing- and losing sponsors.

Chris
07-09-2009, 03:09 PM
Two observations:

1 - matching the machines involves more officials ,inspections and teardowns.

.

That puts you firmly back where the guy with the thick wallet will always win. Especially when that wallet supports not only his own racing activities but the sanctioning body as well.

phragle
07-09-2009, 03:13 PM
he put on a hell of a show at OC this year too....

Ratickle
07-09-2009, 03:38 PM
Back to the topic- that has been a major issue with class racing- one manufacturer comes up with something and instantly makes everyone else obsolete. So everyone else either needs a new $400K boat or thet get used to losing- and losing sponsors.

They do it with weight restrictions, plate restrictions, or wing restrictions in autos.

They used to do it, maybe still do?, with weight restrictions in Factory Classes.

rchevelle71
07-09-2009, 03:47 PM
They do it with weight restrictions, plate restrictions, or wing restrictions in autos.

They used to do it, maybe still do?, with weight restrictions in Factory Classes.


what factory classes??? F-1 and 2 have no boats??

Ratickle
07-09-2009, 03:53 PM
what factory classes??? F-1 and 2 have no boats??


They used to.

And I think they were slowed by weight, (The 39 Skater? Anyone?).

Chris
07-09-2009, 04:35 PM
Sure, there are lots of ways to match up the boats. But the GPS is the easiest way to do it AND it tosses expensive tech inspections, protests and many avenues of cheating right out the window.

I've heard repetitive knocks against the GPS classes over the years, but not one time have I ever heard a reasonable explanation why people would be opposed to it. Most times I hear "that's not real racing". But I'm not sure what that means.

skaterdave
07-09-2009, 05:52 PM
If we want boat count, (and why the heck wouldn't we), we need to standardize the rules. This year, not next after the changes, I could have raced OSS in Cumberland, Oss in LOTO, OPA in St Clair, OPA in Harrison, and SBI in Michigan City within an 10 hour drive. Plus grabbed a couple more OPA races, and 1 more SBI race, if I were willing to drive 12 hours.

Then made the long haul to the worlds.

But only if the rules had been standardized.[/QUOTE]



what P-class rules need to be standardized? they are pretty much all the same, both sbi and opa. are you saying that since sbi and opa are alittle different this is why you don't race??

the only major difference is the type of gps. sbi uses a garmin which most boaters have and is not a big deal to purchase and it is also a good piece of equipment to have aboard.

opa's version of gps is something that is used in trucking and costs a few hundred $$$$s. agian no big deal and smitty has 1 or 2 avialible as loaners if you just wanna run a single race to try it out.

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-09-2009, 06:35 PM
Sure, there are lots of ways to match up the boats. But the GPS is the easiest way to do it AND it tosses expensive tech inspections, protests and many avenues of cheating right out the window.

I've heard repetitive knocks against the GPS classes over the years, but not one time have I ever heard a reasonable explanation why people would be opposed to it. Most times I hear "that's not real racing". But I'm not sure what that means.

No doubt GPS is the easiest way and it opens the door to all boats.

I enjoy the process of finding everything a boat has. In years past you chose boats, power and drive options to come up with the best contender.

I find it satisfying to work on set up and better the boat with in a defined set of rules.

To each his own. Neither way satisfies everyone. Together they fill the program.

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-09-2009, 06:39 PM
That puts you firmly back where the guy with the thick wallet will always win.

It is possible to surmise the thick wallet still wins in bracket racing. The bigger boat with the biggest power limited to a given speed will usually have an advantage.

Ratickle
07-09-2009, 06:48 PM
If we want boat count, (and why the heck wouldn't we), we need to standardize the rules. This year, not next after the changes, I could have raced OSS in Cumberland, Oss in LOTO, OPA in St Clair, OPA in Harrison, and SBI in Michigan City within an 10 hour drive. Plus grabbed a couple more OPA races, and 1 more SBI race, if I were willing to drive 12 hours.

Then made the long haul to the worlds.

But only if the rules had been standardized.



what P-class rules need to be standardized? they are pretty much all the same, both sbi and opa. are you saying that since sbi and opa are alittle different this is why you don't race??

the only major difference is the type of gps. sbi uses a garmin which most boaters have and is not a big deal to purchase and it is also a good piece of equipment to have aboard.

opa's version of gps is something that is used in trucking and costs a few hundred $$$$s. agian no big deal and smitty has 1 or 2 avialible as loaners if you just wanna run a single race to try it out.[/QUOTE]

Look at the classes. Some V only, Some average speed, Some twins, Some singles only, Some Maximum speed, etc.

Biut I don't really want to race bracket classes. I want to run an SVL or Stock Outboard. And in Stock outboard, you can't even run it except in SBI. You're back in P classes elsewhere.

Ratickle
07-09-2009, 06:49 PM
It is possible to surmise the thick wallet still wins in bracket racing. The bigger boat with the biggest power limited to a given speed will usually have an advantage.

And as in Drag brackets. He who can afford the best computer system....

Ratickle
07-09-2009, 06:51 PM
Here's what I have.

Class 500 OPA, 75mph maximum speed GPS, 30' maximum size, Vees only
Class 400 OPA, 85mph maximum speed GPS, Vees only


SBI P5, 75mph maximum speed GPS, 30' and under single engine
SBI P4, 85mph maximun speed GPS, no limitations


Class 4 OSS, 65mph average calculated plus timed, single engine only or twin outboard 24' to 30'
Class 3 OSS, 75mph average calculated plus timed, no limitations
Class 2 OSS, 85mph average calculated plus timed, no limitations


Have I read the rules wrong?


I hate quoting myself, but here is the way the rules read to me.

WHEELMAN
07-09-2009, 06:54 PM
Its called offshore racing. A real ocean race and a lot of people would be suprised how old and new boats are competive in the same class. Not about who gets to the turn first.

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-09-2009, 07:09 PM
Its called offshore racing. A real ocean race and a lot of people would be suprised how old and new boats are competive in the same class. Not about who gets to the turn first.

The open water races are better. I wish we would move back to longer courses in open water.

XtremeRacing
07-09-2009, 07:18 PM
Big water always levels the playing field.

Chris
07-09-2009, 07:23 PM
Its called offshore racing. A real ocean race and a lot of people would be suprised how old and new boats are competive in the same class. Not about who gets to the turn first.

Yeah, but you gotta' choose. Do you want real offshore racing or do you want actual races that happen that have prize money and boat sponsorship?

Top Banana
07-09-2009, 08:09 PM
The open water races are better. I wish we would move back to longer courses in open water.

This is exactly what HORBA is trying to do. When Offshore Racing first started in the modern era......late 50's, there was only one race each year....Miami to Nassau. Everyone worked all year to get something ready to run in it.

HORBA is doing the same thing with our two events per year....February for the Miami to Key West race and Sept for the Around Long Island Marathon. We want to have "Events", not a race series so we don't interfere with the other race groups.

We invite everyone who wants to race to have a chance to run.....from real race boats, modern and historic to poker runners to center consoles to sports fisherman types. Engine and boat manufacturers, come and show the world the products you make can take it in real world conditions. There will be plenty of room for everyone over 185 miles on the way to Key West.

This race date, February 20, 2010, is before any of the other organizations start their schedules. We don't want to take away from any other race group, but want to welcome all who want to try this kind of racing.

skaterdave
07-09-2009, 08:39 PM
two points
1. these long run events are really cool and should somehow be incorporated into todays racing. but i think there need to be some kinda of safety and towing program in affect. as a racer/boat owner you have to think of the bigger picture also and rationalize whats being put at stake $$$$-wise.

2. the "worlds" is probably one of the key factors in the down fall of overall boat racing. there should be a "world champ" but he should be the guy that has won the most races or done the best ALL YEAR! the current setup with KW as the worlds lets teams show up for just that one race and have a shot at the title. how does this promote a quality product of racing all year when guys can just show up and cherry pick the last race.

Ratickle
07-09-2009, 09:47 PM
two points
1. these long run events are really cool and should somehow be incorporated into todays racing. but i think there need to be some kinda of safety and towing program in affect. as a racer/boat owner you have to think of the bigger picture also and rationalize whats being put at stake $$$$-wise.

2. the "worlds" is probably one of the key factors in the down fall of overall boat racing. there should be a "world champ" but he should be the guy that has won the most races or done the best ALL YEAR! the current setup with KW as the worlds lets teams show up for just that one race and have a shot at the title. how does this promote a quality product of racing all year when guys can just show up and cherry pick the last race.

Weren't the World's originally set up to do that, but differently? You had too race at least four races in you district, beit Europe, South America, USA west, USA Midwest, etc. Then you were champ of that region maybe. Then the World's was the one race where all those regional racers got together?

skaterdave
07-09-2009, 10:01 PM
or you can read the fine print, which gives sbi the right to grant any boat it sees fit an exception and allow them to race, even if they don't meet any of the qualifications.

but even the 4 race rule still makes my case. the world champ is not the best of the best, he's just the guy that won that last set of races. imagine if nascar operated that way, you think those top teams would go out and race as hard as they do all year?

if you did a points total award system if would force the teams to run all year. and then you could pay all the prize money at the end with just a little tow money during the year, just enough to offset some of the costs.

Chris
07-09-2009, 10:05 PM
two points
1. these long run events are really cool and should somehow be incorporated into todays racing. but i think there need to be some kinda of safety and towing program in affect. as a racer/boat owner you have to think of the bigger picture also and rationalize whats being put at stake $$$$-wise.

2. the "worlds" is probably one of the key factors in the down fall of overall boat racing. there should be a "world champ" but he should be the guy that has won the most races or done the best ALL YEAR! the current setup with KW as the worlds lets teams show up for just that one race and have a shot at the title. how does this promote a quality product of racing all year when guys can just show up and cherry pick the last race.

Nobody there even cares. The event is the draw. Seeing the action close up in the harbor and the throngs of boat nuts everywhere all week. And how would you even know who won? Go to the private ceremony Sunday night?

skaterdave
07-09-2009, 10:07 PM
Nobody there even cares. The event is the draw. Seeing the action close up in the harbor and the throngs of boat nuts everywhere all week. And how would you even know who won? Go to the private ceremony Sunday night?


ae you talking about the sarasota race last weekend ?

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-09-2009, 10:29 PM
Weren't the World's originally set up to do that, but differently? You had too race at least four races in you district, beit Europe, South America, USA west, USA Midwest, etc. Then you were champ of that region maybe. Then the World's was the one race where all those regional racers got together?

It used to be you had to run at least three races and finished at least 3rd in at least one of them. You could not just show up and run. As fleets dwindled these old rules were relaxed.

The also used to race 3 days and in SUPER, OPEN and MODIFIED they would run 350 miles over the 3 days. Boats would come from around the world. A win was a true accomplishment.

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-09-2009, 10:32 PM
Nobody there even cares. The event is the draw. Seeing the action close up in the harbor and the throngs of boat nuts everywhere all week. And how would you even know who won? Go to the private ceremony Sunday night?

Some people to care. :boxing_smiley:

XtremeRacing
07-09-2009, 11:07 PM
Jim most of the things you mentioned are what the racers voted on. The shorter races is one of the things they wanted. The longer races are to hard on the equipment and there was alot of teams falling out by Sunday. It still bite alot of teams now, and no one want to win not racing all the boats in their class. Three day of racing KW no matter how many miles is a chore.SBI still has the 2 race rule to run in KW ( with an org.)

Chris
07-09-2009, 11:58 PM
ae you talking about the sarasota race last weekend ?

Key West Worlds

Chris
07-10-2009, 12:00 AM
Some people to care. :boxing_smiley:

The racers. Everyone else left the island not knowing who won, nor did they look it up later. But they all had one hell of a good time.

Ratickle
07-10-2009, 06:44 AM
The racers. Everyone else left the island not knowing who won, nor did they look it up later. But they all had one hell of a good time.

Come on now. I bet there were at least a thou here who looked it up and cared.....:sifone:

stevequick
07-10-2009, 08:07 AM
or you can read the fine print, which gives sbi the right to grant any boat it sees fit an exception and allow them to race, even if they don't meet any of the qualifications.

but even the 4 race rule still makes my case. the world champ is not the best of the best, he's just the guy that won that last set of races. imagine if nascar operated that way, you think those top teams would go out and race as hard as they do all year?

if you did a points total award system if would force the teams to run all year. and then you could pay all the prize money at the end with just a little tow money during the year, just enough to offset some of the costs.

I really love this different approach idea. Why don't we try this: Limit the contributors to a racing forum to folks designated as competitors. When those of us who spend the money and take the risks to keep this sport alive have to read drivel written by people with specific agendas and little factual knowledge it's disheartening. When people who might otherwise be racing read it, it is incredibly detrimental. If a forum were "competitors only" we could have dialog between those who put their lives and money on the line and have had a say in where we now find ourselves.

Ted
07-10-2009, 08:23 AM
Steve, we are trying to maintain an open and professional discussion site related to all facets of the sport. That said, there is no reason to have a "Racer Only" section. You make great points in your posts and I think those not directly involved can learn something from them. OTOH I think that sometimes the racers need to take into account other's ideas and opinions, sometimes there are real answers to why the sport cannot progress. Every other major motorsport has marketing gurus, focus groups, and trend analysis experts to help them tailor the product to be most attractive to the end user- the fan. We do not have that luxury but once in a while we do get an honest insight into why fans do or do not like what is going on. As for detrimental drivel, we offer two avenues-report it or refute it. Our mods are very attentive and if a comment or thread is reported we are on it ASAP. We also have other things in place to keep the discussion civil and hopefully, productive.

BTW, the Competitor designation is specifically so that anyone reading will know who is making a statement and attach the proper level of significance to it ;)

MarylandMark
07-10-2009, 08:28 AM
Billy Martin won last year's Cambridge race with a 30-year-old Cigarette with a back seat, chrome horns on the deck and rod holders in the gunwhales. Then he buzzed the dock.
I've seen alot of racing and it ranks up there as one of my favorite moments.


Exactly the situation I was thinking of when I posted!


I've heard repetitive knocks against the GPS classes over the years, but not one time have I ever heard a reasonable explanation why people would be opposed to it. Most times I hear "that's not real racing". But I'm not sure what that means.

Racing to me means man and machine laying it all on the very fine line between success and failure; not doing parade laps at 75MPH in a 105MPH boat. (Sorry to offend current "racers".)

OK- so GPS it is. Bump the current restrictions up by 20MPH.


Why don't we try this: Limit the contributors to a racing forum to folks designated as competitors.

I happen to agree with this and think that is how it was on some of the other boards in the past.

The problem with this approach is:

1- on the fence racers not involved. Could be a good thing; could be a bad thing. Either way seems like it has been proven racers can't get the show together on their own (ie- look at the current situation; but kudos to those making the changes to hopefully make it better! ).

2- fan input not involved. You have to give the fans what they want if you want them to pay your salary and isn't that the end goal of all of this. If racers knew what we wanted they would be flying to the race this weekend on a private jet while eating pealed grapes getting a foot massage vs driving their own rig to the race after wrenching all night (not all racers but I know many like this..).

I'm sure has been covered 101203 times before but I've never read it- sorry but "offshore racing" has never been one of my interest but hoping that changes if/when offshore racing changes.


ps- in all due respect of course. Mr.Quick- your boat is one of the ones I like to watch and congrats to you and Throttle Up on your success!

Chris
07-10-2009, 08:29 AM
I really love this different approach idea. Why don't we try this: Limit the contributors to a racing forum to folks designated as competitors. When those of us who spend the money and take the risks to keep this sport alive have to read drivel written by people with specific agendas and little factual knowledge it's disheartening. When people who might otherwise be racing read it, it is incredibly detrimental. If a forum were "competitors only" we could have dialog between those who put their lives and money on the line and have had a say in where we now find ourselves.


That's certainly one possibility. But there are a couple of tradeoffs.

The first is that possibility that some non-racer contributes that "golden nugget" of a great idea that makes the whole thing better.

The second would be that those people you'd want to exclude are the ultimate customer for your product. They're the guys that are making a deliberate effort to attend your races- the guys that see your sponsor's messages and patronize the businesses in your host/sponsor cities.

Those to me seem to be reasonable tradeoffs to having to endure the occasional numbnuts comment. And it's also an opportunity for you and everyone in the racing community to connect with, inform and educate your fans.

I own a couple of businesses and I WISH there were boards like this where my customers had open conversations about their likes and interests.

WHEELMAN
07-10-2009, 09:53 AM
Yeah, but you gotta' choose. Do you want real offshore racing or do you want actual races that happen that have prize money and boat sponsorship?

You have to build a foundation first. The race teams are the customers not the fans (what fans if you want to compare to the big motorsports). Your not going to get big sponorship, only a select few that did or do. Those teams are big money teams that get the major sponors. Those big companys just don't throw money out to anyone. Boating in general is a hobby that not everybody can relate to. Everybody drives a car.

Chris
07-10-2009, 10:03 AM
You have to build a foundation first. The race teams are the customers not the fans (what fans if you want to compare to the big motorsports). Your not going to get big sponorship, only a select few that did or do. Those teams are big money teams that get the major sponors. Those big companys just don't throw money out to anyone. Boating in general is a hobby that not everybody can relate to. Everybody drives a car.

I'm guessing that if you had an appointment with a potential sponsor this afternoon, this isn't what you'd tell them.

Your approach would be fine if you were able to hook a visionary with deep pockets to fund it. But so far that's not working. And in our present economy, not likely.

There have been a rash of race cancellations this season simply because the people writing the checks didn't see the ROI. And the racers didn't just come anyway because they needed that purse money. So, respectfully, I'd disagree with your assertion.

So you're left with the one and only thing that's working- a grass-roots organization. I'd say the choices today are limited. And doing what you can to develop a fan base is now even more critical.

skaterdave
07-10-2009, 10:08 AM
I really love this different approach idea. Why don't we try this: Limit the contributors to a racing forum to folks designated as competitors. When those of us who spend the money and take the risks to keep this sport alive have to read drivel written by people with specific agendas and little factual knowledge it's disheartening. When people who might otherwise be racing read it, it is incredibly detrimental. If a forum were "competitors only" we could have dialog between those who put their lives and money on the line and have had a say in where we now find ourselves.


steve if they did that it would be just you and beckley talking on here.

also, i race smaller boats and have raced offshore. i'm just pointing out facts that make no sense to me.

you and the few others really nned to come to grips with reality and look at the "sport of offshore racing" and see that something major has to change.

since you decided to jump on my post , i'll start be fixing whats wrong with your class.first off theres nothing stock about superstock boats, yea yea thats why there called "super" stock, i know. but the 2.5 has nothing to do with an stock outboard and last i checked you cant even buy one as a regular boater. the 2.5 is a specific race outboard that need alot of maintence to be competive you probably gotta rebuild every 2-3 races and go thru the gear cases every other race? you'd be spending more than a cat lite guy.

why not switch to a real production outboard such as the 300xs, and this way you could have a motor that could be used outside of racing with the risk of putting hrs on a race only 2.5? also open the door to other production outboards which might bring in one of the other maunfactures.

ps hope the "stevequikjewerly".com on cbs goes good for ya????

Tague
07-10-2009, 10:16 AM
My feeling is if you truely want change in the sport. And are serious about it, then the only way to do it is by getting involved. And by involved I mean putting your time and money on the line. I once again ask the question I did in an earlier post. What would it take for you to spend the money, buy a race boat and participate? Not what you think is needed for others to do it, but YOU.

Ratickle
07-10-2009, 10:22 AM
I don't always elaborate correctly, I know that. I also never take anything personal, unless it is. Debating my message/opinion is no way personal. So;


There are those of us who raced long ago and would like to race again. The expense, to me, is not that big of deal In The Right Classes Scenario.

I can get a gas sponsorship easily. They are local and the expense to them is minor compared to the bang for the buck on TV/Internet/Magazines and in the local papers. Especially this year with three races within a 3 hour drive. This is a major boating area.

Buying the boat, that's just a trade-off between a couple we have now and one race boat, that would also be used for fun/pleasure. So two boats instead of four.

Bracket/GPPS racing, that is the hardest one to find sponsors for. To get $5000 from 10 different entities to cover half the years expense, they want the exposure the non-GPS classes get in the magazines/on the internet. I don't blame them.

Safety, must be a canopy boat because with my wife and I racing together, I will not subject her to any more danger than is absolutely necessary.

So, looking at all of that, SVL makes the most sense, there are currently 3 competitive boats for sale I know of, but the rules/classes in all orgs do not support the expenditure to me for something that may be out of contention the following year. And, can't be raced in it's designed class in OPA,OSS, and SBI all three, currently. It's value would plummet. I don't live in Florida where there are several races within a days drive (12hrs max to me is a day).

Second most sense, outboard cat. Same issues, and as Quick pointed out a while back, not the best beginning class for some dumbazz who's never owned a cat......:)

Hope that clears some stuff up, if not, as I said, let me know or ask. That's what this forum is all about. I'm not the only one who wants to race but doesn't because of the time constraint.

Tague
07-10-2009, 10:35 AM
steve if they did that it would be just you and beckley talking on here.

also, i race smaller boats and have raced offshore. i'm just pointing out facts that make no sense to me.

you and the few others really nned to come to grips with reality and look at the "sport of offshore racing" and see that something major has to change.

since you decided to jump on my post , i'll start be fixing whats wrong with your class.first off theres nothing stock about superstock boats, yea yea thats why there called "super" stock, i know. but the 2.5 has nothing to do with an stock outboard and last i checked you cant even buy one as a regular boater. the 2.5 is a specific race outboard that need alot of maintence to be competive you probably gotta rebuild every 2-3 races and go thru the gear cases every other race? you'd be spending more than a cat lite guy.

why not switch to a real production outboard such as the 300xs, and this way you could have a motor that could be used outside of racing with the risk of putting hrs on a race only 2.5? also open the door to other production outboards which might bring in one of the other maunfactures.

ps hope the "stevequikjewerly".com on cbs goes good for ya????


This is the funniest thing that I have ever seen.
Let me give you some facts about SS

In 2007 I had fresh powerheads on my boat. I raced the whole year and never rebuilt one. The year before I raced 10 races on 2.5's that had 50 hours on them when I got them. Never rebuilt them.

Gear cases Diamond opened them up after every race and inspected them. I put new gears in half way through the season.

Why not switch to 300's or any other production motor?

It wouldn't bring one more boat into the class? But I would bet (and Steve correct me if i'm wrong). If Honda, Suzuki, Evenrude or Yamaha said "hay guys buy motors from us with warrenty, and we'll give you help, a killer deal on parts, have factory people there to work with you." If it was cheaper for the racers we would be all for it. So the boat only goes 100mph....I can only speak for myself but if it was cheaper to run, I'd be all for it.

Chris
07-10-2009, 10:41 AM
My feeling is if you truely want change in the sport. And are serious about it, then the only way to do it is by getting involved. And by involved I mean putting your time and money on the line. I once again ask the question I did in an earlier post. What would it take for you to spend the money, buy a race boat and participate? Not what you think is needed for others to do it, but YOU.

That's a very good question.

What the sport seems to lack is a clear conduit for people to travel that leads them into a seat in a raceboat. The concept of a guy showing up with a raceboat without prior involvement is slim, so how do you get them in? I would think it would be by having an organized program of out-of-boat involvement, then the opportunity to participate in an incremental fashion- like the Batboat program.

In most motorsports, there's a clear developmental path. I suppose there could be that same thing in boat racing. In auto racing, you can go from carts to legends to dirt tracks to local speedways and if you have the talent and resources, to the big show. Is anyone at the organization level doing anything to expose the kneel-to-drive hydro kids to the sport? That's the more likely candidate. The typical performance boater is likely to be more drawn to poker runs. It's unusual to hit your late 30's or upwards and suddenly discover you have a desire for competition.

Tague
07-10-2009, 10:45 AM
I don't always elaborate correctly, I know that. I also never take anything personal, unless it is. Debating my message/opinion is no way personal. So;


There are those of us who raced long ago and would like to race again. The expense, to me, is not that big of deal In The Right Classes Scenario.

I can get a gas sponsorship easily. They are local and the expense to them is minor compared to the bang for the buck on TV/Internet/Magazines and in the local papers. Especially this year with three races within a 3 hour drive. This is a major boating area.

Buying the boat, that's just a trade-off between a couple we have now and one race boat, that would also be used for fun/pleasure. So two boats instead of four.

Bracket/GPPS racing, that is the hardest one to find sponsors for. To get $5000 from 10 different entities to cover half the years expense, they want the exposure the non-GPS classes get in the magazines/on the internet. I don't blame them.

Safety, must be a canopy boat because with my wife and I racing together, I will not subject her to any more danger than is absolutely necessary.

So, looking at all of that, SVL makes the most sense, there are currently 3 competitive boats for sale I know of, but the rules/classes in all orgs do not support the expenditure to me for something that may be out of contention the following year. And, can't be raced in it's designed class in OPA,OSS, and SBI all three, currently. It's value would plummet. I don't live in Florida where there are several races within a days drive (12hrs max to me is a day).

Second most sense, outboard cat. Same issues, and as Quick pointed out a while back, not the best beginning class for some dumbazz who's never owned a cat......:)

Hope that clears some stuff up, if not, as I said, let me know or ask. That's what this forum is all about. I'm not the only one who wants to race but doesn't because of the time constraint.


I think if I was in your shoe's I would buy a canopied cat with a set of stock 2.5 200 carb motors, 2.4's anything that you could get some seat time in and at a low cost. P class race it and when you get ready sell it and go into Stock with that boat or buy another.

http://inlinethumb30.webshots.com/45341/2864047890103312796S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2864047890103312796zUbMSR)

here is one option, this is the another Deep Vee Cat that would make a safe entry level boat for someone.

Give Lee a call and make a deal.

Ratickle
07-10-2009, 10:45 AM
Is anyone at the organization level doing anything to expose the kneel-to-drive hydro kids to the sport?

Loved/hated those things. But we had a real large circuit out on the west coast. Knees still kill me, but I blame motocross/desert racing.....:sifone:

Phantom1
07-10-2009, 10:48 AM
My feeling is if you truely want change in the sport. And are serious about it, then the only way to do it is by getting involved. And by involved I mean putting your time and money on the line. I once again ask the question I did in an earlier post. What would it take for you to spend the money, buy a race boat and participate? Not what you think is needed for others to do it, but YOU.

I agree with you for the most part. I first raced my pleasure boat Thoroughbred/Velocity in 1995 - Run What Ya Brung class in Sarasota. I was hooked....

It took me awhile, but ended up with a 30 Phantom running A class in 1999, which soon became SVL. My first race was in Kissimmee and I remember asking a veteran racer why there weren't more boats. He said "most people race for three years and give it up - the three year rule". I thought to myself that it made no sense, and I was going to race forever. Guess what - I raced for 3 years and then sold the boat. The politics, personal agendas, egos and rule changes wore me out.

I have no interest in racing again, but I do feel that there is a lot to be learned from ex-racers. Are they a better target to get back in the game than recruiting new racers? I don't know, but there is a big pool of ex-racers to recruit from.

skaterdave
07-10-2009, 10:49 AM
[QUOTE=Tague;264966]This is the funniest thing that I have ever seen.
Let me give you some facts about SS



Gear cases Diamond opened them up after every race and inspected them. I put new gears in half way through the season.


isn't this what i just said???? did diamond open them up and work on them for free???
and as far as motors go talk to the top guys and ask them how often the motors get rebuilt??

i know of 2 people that would jump on a super stock race boat but the idea of the 2.5 scares them away.

Ryan Beckley
07-10-2009, 10:55 AM
A couple of seasons ago we ran 9 races on a set of powerheads and gearcases without going through them & no break downs. You also can still by motors, powerheads, & gearcases from Mercury. We base our SS race program around $5,000.00 +/- per race FYI.

If you actually throttle the boat (IE not just hold it wide open) the motors and gearcases are very reliable. The big guys rebuild the motors after 5 races and gearcases alittle more often. If you change the gearcase oil it is a pretty good indicator wether they need to be rebuilt of not.

Bottom line is most of todays performance boater are afraid of cats & outboards.......I just had an SVL guy drive my boat at a race and he is HOOKED now.....

Ratickle
07-10-2009, 11:00 AM
A couple of seasons ago we ran 9 races on a set of powerheads and gearcases without going through them & no break downs. You also can still by motors, powerheads, & gearcases from Mercury. We base our SS race program around $5,000.00 +/- per race FYI.

Is that total expenditure average, or your out of pocket after sponsorship assistance? I was figuring $100,000 for the season with no boat payment for a 10 race season, plus the worlds.

Ratickle
07-10-2009, 11:02 AM
Bottom line is most of todays performance boater are afraid of cats & outboards.........

I'm not skeered, just can't justify the insurace hit vs. a performance Vee.:sifone:

Ryan Beckley
07-10-2009, 11:06 AM
NO the $5000.00 is total.....per race then subtract out your sponsorship, prize money, & other income.

Tague
07-10-2009, 03:48 PM
Ryan, we were the same $5000 a race is right on the money.

and I don't remember but I think Diamond charged me like $175.00 a gear case to open up, inspect and re-assemble. I can do that 10 times before I spend the money on a blown up one.

stevequick
07-10-2009, 09:28 PM
[QUOTE=skaterdave;264947]steve if they did that it would be just you and beckley talking on here.
And then you would have people who actually have the desire and ba*$$ to do it discussing what it is REALLY all about. Not what it was (was it?) what it could be (could it?) or what it should be in the fantasies of a few Wanna Be's who have no intention of ever doing anything that takes them away from a keyboard.
To the Wanna Be's who really want to race or engage in substantive dialog (and many do) your input is welcome and interesting, and you will find nothing but assistance from Ryan and Team Throttle Up to help you get up to speed.
SQ

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-10-2009, 09:52 PM
Nice Steve, I too am willing to help. I took a different path. I worked from the the bilge to the driver seat. Money is one way. Willingness to work and help with experience is another.

DIRTY DUCK
07-10-2009, 11:23 PM
I believe complete motor inspections that are a open book would help the sport. I have watched several boats get away with alot. When that is repeated over and over it leaves a bad taste. Some classes have been destroyed by cheating, but nodody wants to call out the cheater. The people in charge are afraid they might lose that boat at their next race. What happens instead is that boat shows up and the other boats start dropping out little by little. There is alot of improvment that could happen here, One of the best inspections I seen in years was at St. Clair with a inspector named Anthony Smith and that was several years ago.

Just my 2 cents
ALVIN

phragle
07-11-2009, 12:03 AM
[QUOTE=skaterdave;264947]steve if they did that it would be just you and beckley talking on here.
And then you would have people who actually have the desire and ba*$$ to do it discussing what it is REALLY all about. Not what it was (was it?) what it could be (could it?) or what it should be in the fantasies of a few Wanna Be's who have no intention of ever doing anything that takes them away from a keyboard.
To the Wanna Be's who really want to race or engage in substantive dialog (and many do) your input is welcome and interesting, and you will find nothing but assistance from Ryan and Team Throttle Up to help you get up to speed.
SQ

yes...as of now I probably fit the wanabe catagory, but with a vested interest. Working as a medic with OPA I am getting as much exposure to the sport as I can at the present time. When I finish school, I would like to race. I do however have a lot of time racing motorcycles, atv's, carsand other types of boats. I have seen how many different orginizations run various types of events... from time to time I have talked about the safety side boats. I am not a boat builder, but I volunteer my time for your safety. I spend what little money I have to go to races to do it. My years as a medic, firefighter, and medical director for a race orgination have taught me a LOT about the kenetics of crashes and the related injuries. My only goal in that arena is to see you step onto the dock and greet your family and friends after the race.

stevequick
07-11-2009, 07:47 AM
[QUOTE=stevequick;265429]

yes...as of now I probably fit the wanabe catagory, but with a vested interest. Working as a medic with OPA I am getting as much exposure to the sport as I can at the present time. When I finish school, I would like to race. I do however have a lot of time racing motorcycles, atv's, carsand other types of boats. I have seen how many different orginizations run various types of events... from time to time I have talked about the safety side boats. I am not a boat builder, but I volunteer my time for your safety. I spend what little money I have to go to races to do it. My years as a medic, firefighter, and medical director for a race orgination have taught me a LOT about the kenetics of crashes and the related injuries. My only goal in that arena is to see you step onto the dock and greet your family and friends after the race.

We are all indebted to you and all the people who do what you do. You are NEVER taken for granted.
SQ

Tague
07-11-2009, 09:20 AM
I believe complete motor inspections that are a open book would help the sport. I have watched several boats get away with alot. When that is repeated over and over it leaves a bad taste. Some classes have been destroyed by cheating, but nodody wants to call out the cheater. The people in charge are afraid they might lose that boat at their next race. What happens instead is that boat shows up and the other boats start dropping out little by little. There is alot of improvment that could happen here, One of the best inspections I seen in years was at St. Clair with a inspector named Anthony Smith and that was several years ago.

Just my 2 cents
ALVIN


Cheating goes on, there is no question about it. There are rules in the book on protests,teardowns and penalty's. If I knew for a fact that one of the other teams in my class was cheating. I would spend the money and tear them down in a second. Most teams that I have seen get there butt's handed to them and can't take loosing. There afraid to tear the winner down because how would that look if nothing is found. That's why the best way to handle possible cheating is within the class.

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-11-2009, 09:29 AM
Rules need to be easily inspected. I like sealed motor spec classes and Swapping ECM's at events.

Some car classes put a value on a motor. So it can be bought after the race. It discourages investing in a cheater motor.

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-11-2009, 09:31 AM
I think currently the bigger problem is lack of boats in upper classes.

People spend so much to race unchallenged. How do you stop that?

No flags, Checks, or titles for solo runs in upper classes?

MarylandMark
07-11-2009, 11:11 AM
Some car classes put a value on a motor. So it can be bought after the race. It discourages investing in a cheater motor.

I think the APBA had that- $6K after the race and it was yours?

I'd put it at like cost + 10% (or whatever) so if the motor did turn out to be "stock" the buyer didn't gain any thing and the seller "made" a buck off it.

Some motors are just built better than others so may not be worth the seller losing a good motor but it happens. Heck- they can buy it back after the next race if it is that good and then if someone else wants it sell it after that race and net a few bucks overall.

phragle
07-11-2009, 11:18 AM
engine claimer classes, I have seen one instance where someone dominated a few races in a car class lie that, several racers pooled their money, claimed the motor and parted it out. I got the pistons for my play car :) .

XtremeRacing
07-11-2009, 11:59 AM
Class reps need to work with the Org. and police their class best they can. If they stay on top of it as a class it works much better.

DIRTY DUCK
07-11-2009, 12:54 PM
I think the APBA had that- $6K after the race and it was yours?

I'd put it at like cost + 10% (or whatever) so if the motor did turn out to be "stock" the buyer didn't gain any thing and the seller "made" a buck off it.

Some motors are just built better than others so may not be worth the seller losing a good motor but it happens. Heck- they can buy it back after the next race if it is that good and then if someone else wants it sell it after that race and net a few bucks overall.

I feel it is a shame for a racer to have to put up the money for tear down or protest, If a inspector is on his game he should be able to police it pretty damn good. Paying for a protest, I feel is more of a deterrent to stop people from complaining. APBA OPC inspections was the best I ever saw, they were pretty detailed and some racers still got away with it. You will never stop the cheating or bending the rules or the gray areas. When you have inspectors that have monday jobs and need to blow through a boat at the end of the day on Sunday. What do you think is going to happen?

Ratickle
07-11-2009, 12:59 PM
For the rest of us,

Can some of you guys start a thread on engine tech for teardown, control, etc.?

I thought with the new technology, measuring CU IN, Compression, and ECU was pretty cut and dried. And easy. Wrong?

DAREDEVIL
07-11-2009, 02:57 PM
I feel it is a shame for a racer to have to put up the money for tear down or protest, If a inspector is on his game he should be able to police it pretty damn good. Paying for a protest, I feel is more of a deterrent to stop people from complaining. APBA OPC inspections was the best I ever saw, they were pretty detailed and some racers still got away with it. You will never stop the cheating or bending the rules or the gray areas. When you have inspectors that have monday jobs and need to blow through a boat at the end of the day on Sunday. What do you think is going to happen?

Is that why OSS payed there inspector 6 figures ??????

Look where there at now,,,,,OPA ,,hahaha:rofl:

SORRY COULD NOT RESIST

SVL66
07-11-2009, 03:04 PM
OSS didnt pay their inspectors 6 figures. Get your facts straight. Your not gonna make any friends by bashing OSS. On second thought, you dont have many any way.

Sorry ...I could not resist,,,,,ha ha ha

skaterdave
07-11-2009, 03:08 PM
Is that why OSS payed there inspector 6 figures ??????

Look where there at now,,,,,OPA ,,hahaha:rofl:

SORRY COULD NOT RESIST

hhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaa, hhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaa, you ****s for sale jackass.

DIRTY DUCK
07-11-2009, 04:04 PM
Is that why OSS payed there inspector 6 figures ??????

Look where there at now,,,,,OPA ,,hahaha:rofl:

SORRY COULD NOT RESIST


Typical attitude why this sport does not move forward! So many of you guys share the same passion, but get bent out of shape so bad over three letters Sbi,Oss and Opa. Maybe when the merges happen it should be WTF!

I do think they all or you all will have to merge, not out of love but survival! I sure we have not seen the end of losing sites this year and next. If you want to continue to race you better plan way ahead. Because somebody might come up with a perfect series to make everybody happy and no place to race.

ALVIN

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-11-2009, 04:41 PM
Scott,
And you wonder why people give you ****.

For a know it all of your caliber you should finish more races.

Chris
07-11-2009, 07:00 PM
Scott,
And you wonder why people give you ****.

For a know it all of your caliber you should finish more races.

:)

imco offshore
07-11-2009, 07:35 PM
Is that why OSS payed there inspector 6 figures ??????

Look where there at now,,,,,OPA ,,hahaha:rofl:

SORRY COULD NOT RESIST

do you ever look in the mirror and wonder WHY lions eat their young. do u even know what 6 figures means? think about it ,,,,, try to read these post and learn something! :beatdeadhorse5: :beatdeadhorse5: :cuss:

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-11-2009, 07:44 PM
Lets not get personal and resort to name calling.

imco offshore
07-11-2009, 07:52 PM
i just think hes st,,,,,,,d 110 thinks hes a jack,,,,,s sorry it,s just a shame to waste good air

phragle
07-11-2009, 08:04 PM
Please..we discuss ideas...not character assainate here...

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-11-2009, 08:18 PM
What ever happened to Manatee's one design?

phragle
07-11-2009, 08:49 PM
He didn't get the sponsorship he wanted to keep the setup at the price he wanted, so it's on hold.

imco offshore
07-11-2009, 10:06 PM
hmmmm

Sean Stinson
07-11-2009, 10:26 PM
two points
1. these long run events are really cool and should somehow be incorporated into todays racing. but i think there need to be some kinda of safety and towing program in affect. as a racer/boat owner you have to think of the bigger picture also and rationalize whats being put at stake $$$$-wise.

2. the "worlds" is probably one of the key factors in the down fall of overall boat racing. there should be a "world champ" but he should be the guy that has won the most races or done the best ALL YEAR! the current setup with KW as the worlds lets teams show up for just that one race and have a shot at the title. how does this promote a quality product of racing all year when guys can just show up and cherry pick the last race.


That would fall under the National Champion Title!!!!! But to qualify for the Worlds you have to run atleast 2 or 3 races throughout the year and yes that does give you the righjt to pick and choose....When I come back, if I comeback, that is the only title I am gunning for other than that I amgoing to go after the endurance records because that is trult an offshore event!!!!

Sean Stinson
07-11-2009, 10:37 PM
I think that alot of changes will begin happening throughout the year and into next year....So I think that maybe we should ride the storm out for a year and at that popint see where it stands.....If you don't like it at that time then it probably needs to die and be rebuilt from the ground up with a new theme, look and vision!!!!! Regardless of what anyone thinks IMHO I think it needs to be a for profit org under one banner with a divisional club format under 1 banner that is a dictatorship....I believe it also should be run under the KISS format...Keep It Simple Stupid!!!!!!!!

imco offshore
07-11-2009, 10:39 PM
Now that we know what doesn't work. Let's open up a discussion as to what the sport needs. Let's leave out current projects, loyalties and agenda's and allow them to rise or fall based on their own merits and/or lack thereof.

Let's take a clean sheet of paper, and project what, in a perfect world, the sport should look like. This will do one of two things; produce a vision that a bunch of people can get behind, or show that the diversity of concepts in the minds of those with interest in the sport is too varied for anything but the small time, localised, weekend warrior events we currently see.

I will not participate beyond simply opening the topic. This is about your ideas...not mine. Instead I will simply answer questions on the "T2x set me straight" thread if someone needs historical reference material.

Have at it and good luck.

T2x

i think ? if i may? 4 sunday classes 2 cats 2 v,s top dog cat 2 engines unlimited power min lth 38 ft. 2nd cat class 34 / 38 ft power to weight max weight 9500 lbs this will limit the, power v bottoms super v min lnth.38 ft 2 engines limited v,s max lnth 38 ft power to weight max weight 9000 lbs will again limit power. every thing else runs saturdays > no purse no prizes nothing it would be a proving grounds to show case tallent. just like every other real sport ,,,, stock cars,,,,scca,,,, motor cycles you can,t pay every class that stumbles to the starting line,, as you have seen people with money can invent a class , and that is what deluted boat racing. BOTTOM LINE THIS IS AN EXPENSIVE SPORT AND A LOT OF US SHOULDN,T BE HERE ANYWAY. not many of us think of going to nascar ,,,? well this on water, it,s just my opinion if you want to edit it go ahead ,,,,:USA:

DAREDEVIL
07-11-2009, 10:40 PM
i just think hes st,,,,,,,d 110 thinks hes a jack,,,,,s sorry it,s just a shame to waste good air

I think ,that is what all this is anyways,,," waisting air " nothing is going to change !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also i don't need friends and i like when u give me a bunch of s...,,,i am big enough to handle it .

On the finishing races,,,hey engine problems happen ,,not my thing,,don't know nothing about them.
A matter of fact i may not no anything about anything,,,,but i do know that a bunsh of people hate Smitty and now they kiss his A.. to have a place to race,,,and i do think that is pretty funny right there.

Hey Dave,,,for u my friend,,my boat is always for sale if i get what i want for it .,,,so is everybody elses i would think.

For all of u keep dreaming and i just live and enjoy my life,,as always.:USA:

LATER

PS.: i love it when i get u guys going like that .:seeya:

imco offshore
07-11-2009, 10:49 PM
I think ,that is what all this is anyways,,," waisting air " nothing is going to change !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also i don't need friends and i like when u give me a bunch of s...,,,i am big enough to handle it .

On the finishing races,,,hey engine problems happen ,,not my thing,,don't know nothing about them.
A matter of fact i may not no anything about anything,,,,but i do know that a bunsh of people hate Smitty and now they kiss his A.. to have a place to race,,,and i do think that is pretty funny right there.

Hey Dave,,,for u my friend,,my boat is always for sale if i get what i want for it .,,,so is everybody elses i would think.

For all of u keep dreaming and i just live and enjoy my life,,as always.:USA:

LATER

PS.: i love it when i get u guys going like that .:seeya:

TOUSHEA,,,,:cuss:

phragle
07-11-2009, 10:52 PM
maybe I am an ignorant muppet... but I have talked to a lot of people here and there, and noone has ever said a bad thing about Smitty, much less hate him.....

imco offshore
07-11-2009, 10:54 PM
scott now that i think about it YOU are probably one of the most reconized people in offshore right now ? COOL sit back and drink a beer , :driving:

Sean Stinson
07-11-2009, 10:55 PM
Smitty is Smitty, I have alot of respect for him to do what he has done for free speaks accolades of him!!!!

DAREDEVIL
07-11-2009, 10:57 PM
Smitty is Smitty, I have alot of respect for him to do what he has done for free speaks accolades of him!!!!

Sean i agree 100 % !!

DAREDEVIL
07-11-2009, 11:02 PM
maybe I am an ignorant muppet... but I have talked to a lot of people here and there, and noone has ever said a bad thing about Smitty, much less hate him.....

Where u in destin in 2006 ??? After that one OSS / OPA .....i think **** hit the fan .

But hey maybe i missunderstand everybody and when i was sitting in a plain one day with a person from OSS maybe i miss understood him ,,,grow up guys .

And hey ,,,i had my problems with smitty and i think they are resolved.

Other then that most of the people are not like me,,,they dont say anything only in a dark room where they can't be identified. toooooo funny.

Most of u guys actually think i am a d... because i speak what i think and some of u can't handle it ,,,,,,sorry .

I hope i get my part together and see you all in St Clair.

LATER:seeya:

imco offshore
07-11-2009, 11:08 PM
Where u in destin in 2006 ??? After that one OSS / OPA .....i think **** hit the fan .

But hey maybe i missunderstand everybody and when i was sitting in a plain one day with a person from OSS maybe i miss understood him ,,,grow up guys .

And hey ,,,i had my problems with smitty and i think they are resolved.

Other then that most of the people are not like me,,,they dont say anything only in a dark room where they can't be identified. toooooo funny.

Most of u guys actually think i am a d... because i speak what i think and some of u can't handle it ,,,,,,sorry .

I hope i get my part together and see you all in St Clair.

LATER:seeya:

what part do you need ?

DAREDEVIL
07-11-2009, 11:38 PM
what part do you need ?

What everybody else needs !!!!!!

inbetween
07-11-2009, 11:39 PM
I have a question - from a fan, not a racer. I may have no place in this discussion, but here I go anyway.

I'm not a NASCAR fan by any means, so my numbers may be off a bit, but I think they're close. NASCAR runs 35 or so race weekends a year. Most of those weekends have 3 races each weekend plus qualifying. They are generally able to pull off the live television events that go along with those races. On major networks too. They have a huge fan and sponsor base. Is it out of the question to think that offshore racing (or any form of boat racing for that matter) has the potential to operate similarly? Is that too many races for a season? If yes why? Is it naive of me to think that everyone could set their differences aside long enough to race each other each week? Can one set of rules be applied so even if there are multiple organizations, racers can still race each other?

inbetween
07-11-2009, 11:41 PM
I think currently the bigger problem is lack of boats in upper classes.

People spend so much to race unchallenged. How do you stop that?

No flags, Checks, or titles for solo runs in upper classes?

If you're racing alone, how much of a race is it? Is it really racing?

Sean Stinson
07-11-2009, 11:44 PM
36 actually.....and you have 3 different classes all running their own race so thus the confusion is taken out of the equation.....

I think the answer you are looking for is that people get pi$$ed and take their toys to a different sandbox and the great rift starts and continues until we decide to unify and then the vicious cycle begins over again!!!!

Sean Stinson
07-11-2009, 11:46 PM
What the sport needs is a dictator with deep deep pockets to bring it to a forefront sport!!!!!

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-12-2009, 01:05 AM
What the sport needs is a dictator with deep deep pockets to bring it to a forefront sport!!!!!

I hope the dictator moves it back to open water and returns offshore to a demonstration of endurance.

phragle
07-12-2009, 01:24 AM
I hope the dictator moves it back to open water and returns offshore to a demonstration of endurance.

really not practicle from the business sense, but thats what drew me to offshore and desert racing when I was a kid. Seeing stuff like the baja 1000 and offshore races on tv fascinated me, the aspect of control. sure your racing someone else, but even moreso your racing yourself -walking a very fine line between going fast and tearing stuff up. Baja is still like that, ask anyone who has done it, finishing it is the accomplishment, winning is just icing on the cake. BTWT... I hope the horba stuff takes off, I really want to give that a try when I finish school.

Pete B
07-12-2009, 06:08 AM
No you dont need a dictator, you need a leader! a Dictator will run everyone off, I believe we have seen this example, True born leader, who can demostrate the ability, to bring all together, yet still make sponsors happy, and make ALL teams the show. And the most important bring the show to the fans, so they want MORE!

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-12-2009, 09:02 AM
really not practicle from the business sense, but thats what drew me to offshore and desert racing when I was a kid.


So interested in pleasing the fan we have changed the sport. Is there any evidence the change has made it better? I see less boats, less competition, less pay out.

Ratickle
07-12-2009, 09:11 AM
So interested in pleasing the fan we have changed the sport. Is there any evidence the change has made it better? I see less boats, less competition, less pay out.

I think it's an asy test to figure out.

Have a season where 8 or 10 races are close to shore for at least half their run, and the rest are the long runs offshore. The answer will come....

Phantom1
07-12-2009, 09:17 AM
What is the ideal "length" of a race? How about a hybrid course?

Maybe 5 to 7 laps close to shore and then head out to a single turn bouy for the last lap, ending back up with the finish along the beach. Best of both worlds - kind of like this.....

imco offshore
07-12-2009, 09:33 AM
there are just too many classes, and we are trying to accomodate all and that just wont work, me personally after all this stuff going on , i,m thinking of selling off everything and buying an old 38 cig,run one or two long races a year . i love racing , 10 12 races a year will kill a small business, too much time away." i think sean has the right idea "

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-12-2009, 11:07 AM
Here is an Old Key West Course from when it was truly a World competition.

35397

I don't have a pic of the '01 course. It was similar , much like the storm course with the short leg. It was a great course.

All site cant accommodate a long course but, the ones that can most certainly should.

I course IMO Should be a minimum of 10 miles. If a boat won't run for 30 miles it is not an offshore race boat. Making shorter laps is a band aid to too few boats.

Ratickle
07-12-2009, 11:25 AM
The current course is 6.5 miles about. From the pier I could see probably 3/4 of it. That makes it much more interesting for the fan side of me because I can watch the battles like was between Amsoil and Geico had last year against Popeyes and JBS.

I personally hate watching three boats go out of sight and only one emerging back into view 15 or 20 minutes later. What happened??????

Maybe we should actually start another thread in the dock for fan opinions of best races attended, and why....

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-12-2009, 11:32 AM
Paul you could pick a different place to watch. One could see the entire course from the Catamaran or the point on the rocks. Sorry no beer truck there though.

You can't see the whole course in many forms of racing.

Pat D
07-12-2009, 11:48 AM
The current course is 6.5 miles about. From the pier I could see probably 3/4 of it. That makes it much more interesting for the fan side of me because I can watch the battles like was between Amsoil and Geico had last year against Popeyes and JBS.

I personally hate watching three boats go out of sight and only one emerging back into view 15 or 20 minutes later. What happened??????
....

At the time, the KW course was changed for a couple of reasons, one being visibility, one was not a band-aid.
When questioning anything re: KW races, don't forget to factor in the conch and rainbow politics.

I am having trouble hitting the "submit reply" button.......but I will if it helps explain this particular question.......:)

Ratickle
07-12-2009, 11:57 AM
Paul you could pick a different place to watch. One could see the entire course from the Catamaran or the point on the rocks. Sorry no beer truck there though.

You can't see the whole course in many forms of racing.

I was at he point on the rocks with Jay on Sunday, and with another group in 03. You can't see after you go past the point at the start of the seawall where that little right is. Then you see again when they come to about the start finish along the island.

I know. It's just that as soon as the race is over, I'm in the pits talking to the guys to see what happened etc.

Had the same issue at St Clair. Short course you can see the entire course, long course they go around the bend and disappear.

I'm strictly thinking along the lines of enticing more fans, therefore more $, therefore more teams.

One of the things which has to be taken into consideration, the attention span of potential fans. Now, unlike the old days, we compete against computer games, 100's of TV channels, quads, malls, etc. That has to be taken into consideration.

I believe the I Love Lucy show peaked at about a 68 rating in the 60's and the highest show last year was just over a 20 (American Idol).


OOps. Lucy was the 50's Gunsmoke and Beverly Hillbillies in the 60's. American Idol number 1 since it's inception.....

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-12-2009, 12:00 PM
Pat I used KW as an example ALL the Courses have gotten shorter while I have been racing.

My favorite Older Long Courses are. Corpus Christi, Sarasota, Key West, Pt Pleasant.

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-12-2009, 12:10 PM
Paul, you can't see the inside turn from the mole either.. Sounds a little nit picky to me.

All I am saying is in the interest of making it easier to watch we have changed the boats to non offshore.

I can make an analogy to Nascar. No more road courses. "I cant see ". No more superspeedways. "I need binoculars and I have to wait from them to come around." We should just race short tracks like Martinsville.

Of course there are more differences than similarities, but the tracks make the events. Not the ease in spectating.

DAREDEVIL
07-12-2009, 12:30 PM
Jim,,,,if u would be a sponsor of a team,,what did u want ,,the fans ( potensiol byuers of your product ) to see the boats ,,,,????? or your team just having a blast ??????

THATS THE POINT !!!

Just my 2 c.

BUT WHAT DO I KNOW ?!

I actually think the idea of Phantom 1 is cool,,,but i know how many would get lost counting when to head out .LOL

Sean Stinson
07-12-2009, 12:53 PM
No you dont need a dictator, you need a leader! a Dictator will run everyone off, I believe we have seen this example, True born leader, who can demostrate the ability, to bring all together, yet still make sponsors happy, and make ALL teams the show. And the most important bring the show to the fans, so they want MORE!

Pete you are correct....but it has to be a leader that has the final say period and everyone has to be willing to play by these rules and stop with the fracturing of the sport!!!!!!!!:sifone::sifone:

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-12-2009, 12:55 PM
A minimum test of a race course could be. Can a STV out run the SVL's If they can it is not an Offshore race.

For those that don't know what a STV is it is brand of river racer/ drag boat with a model about 20', 500 lbs, 110+ mph boat.

35399

Sean Stinson
07-12-2009, 01:07 PM
Here is an Old Key West Course from when it was truly a World competition.

35397

I don't have a pic of the '01 course. It was similar , much like the storm course with the short leg. It was a great course.

All site cant accommodate a long course but, the ones that can most certainly should.

I course IMO Should be a minimum of 10 miles. If a boat won't run for 30 miles it is not an offshore race boat. Making shorter laps is a band aid to too few boats.

I agree Jimmy I dont understand why we cant run a sprint course and an endurance course where permissable....that would give you more racing action as well as the oppurtunity to show off your skills in various conditions!!!

Ratickle
07-12-2009, 02:45 PM
A minimum test of a race course could be. Can a STV out run the SVL's If they can it is not an Offshore race.

For those that don't know what a STV is it is brand of river racer/ drag boat with a model about 20', 500 lbs, 110+ mph boat.

35399

That's fair. Maybe on the inland courses there should big cruisers constantly parrelling the course at a distance....

Maybe that Bombadier 108' at 3/4 throttle.....

And there are some mean STV's out there......

Ratickle
07-12-2009, 02:52 PM
Since this is a thread to start from scratch the question to ask, and I know this won't be exactly correct, is:

What comes first and what is most important for growth from there?

NFL, very popular. AFL, WFL, IFL, gone.....Why???


North American Pro Soccer. Several attempts, all failures......Why???

Many more examples out there......


All had massive amounts of money thrown at them. All had TV contracts. All had so-called "stars". What went wrong?

Four things are important.

Fans
Money
Participants
Locations

Anything else?

And I believe you need all four, three won't succeed.

DAREDEVIL
07-12-2009, 03:42 PM
Since this is a thread to start from scratch the question to ask, and I know this won't be exactly correct, is:

What comes first and what is most important for growth from there?

NFL, very popular. AFL, WFL, IFL, gone.....Why???


North American Pro Soccer. Several attempts, all failures......Why???

Many more examples out there......


All had massive amounts of money thrown at them. All had TV contracts. All had so-called "stars". What went wrong?

Four things are important.

Fans
Money
Participants
Locations

Anything else?

And I believe you need all four, three won't succeed.

Absolutley!!!!!!!!!

Ratickle
07-12-2009, 06:50 PM
Paul, you can't see the inside turn from the mole either.. Sounds a little nit picky to me.

All I am saying is in the interest of making it easier to watch we have changed the boats to non offshore.

I can make an analogy to Nascar. No more road courses. "I cant see ". No more superspeedways. "I need binoculars and I have to wait from them to come around." We should just race short tracks like Martinsville.

Of course there are more differences than similarities, but the tracks make the events. Not the ease in spectating.

I'm not going to completely disagree. However, Martinsville is the toughest ticket to get and the road races have the least fan support and lowest TV ratings.

But, the root of you point, "we've changed it". may be something to think about. In my other example, the failure of every example that has disappeared, they were not the original offering.

Back to the basics ?????
(Now I sound like Rich..)

DAREDEVIL
07-12-2009, 08:56 PM
I'm not going to completely disagree. However, Martinsville is the toughest ticket to get and the road races have the least fan support and lowest TV ratings.

But, the root of you point, "we've changed it". may be something to think about. In my other example, the failure of every example that has disappeared, they were not the original offering.

Back to the basics ?????
(Now I sound like Rich..)

I think u got it figured out ,,like most of us ,,the question/task is how to put it in reality.:confused::bigear:

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-12-2009, 09:27 PM
I nice mix is good. A good national points series should have a balanced mix.

Phantom1
07-12-2009, 10:23 PM
Financially (income to the sanctioning body), offshore or inshore probably doesn't matter. There is no paid gate.....period.

If I was Carbonell, with a major network on the hook, I would be asking them what they want to film to make the sport "appear to be" more exciting to John Q. Public.

Big Water offshore - go for it....

Tight racing close to shore - you got it....

CBS is in a position to advance offshore right now. Whatever the hell they want is alright with me. It can't get much worse than it has been for the last 5 or 6 years.

Ratickle
07-12-2009, 10:35 PM
Financially (income to the sanctioning body), offshore or inshore probably doesn't matter. There is no paid gate.....period.



The paid gate at the worlds has to be substantial. I don't know about anywhere else. St Clair certainly has a setup which would allow charging for the best viewing and the pits.

My guesstimate at the Worlds last year, over $100,000. (WildAzzGuess by the way)

MOBILEMERCMAN
07-12-2009, 10:41 PM
What was it 10 bucks a head. I doubt there were 10k people there. My wildazzguess.

Phantom1
07-12-2009, 10:45 PM
The paid gate at the worlds has to be substantial. I don't know about anywhere else. St Clair certainly has a setup which would allow charging for the best viewing and the pits.

My guesstimate at the Worlds last year, over $100,000. (WildAzzGuess by the way)

KW is the exception. Back in the mid-90's, US Offshore tried to put on a race off of Sea Pines on Hilton Head Island, SC. I offered to assist Bill Gifford make it happen because it is a gated community and would be a great way to track who is honestly there for the race, and who just happened to be on the beach anyway. Never happened, for a variety of reasons.

It has been the biggest argument against "NASCAR on the water". NASCAR accurately tracks attendance, which gives sponsors a benchmark for return on investment. Not to mention the income from the gate as well. Apples (NASCAR) and oranges (offshore). If there are 25,000 people on the beach during an offshore race......how many just happened to be there? I'm just playing devil's advocate here - trust me, I love our sport.

Ratickle
07-12-2009, 10:46 PM
What was it 10 bucks a head. I doubt there were 10k people there. My wildazzguess.

Guest complete event Pit Passes were $75 each. Had to be at least a couple thousand people out on the pier. Only way to get there, or be a competitior/assistant.

Pete B
07-12-2009, 11:05 PM
Pete you are correct....but it has to be a leader that has the final say period and everyone has to be willing to play by these rules and stop with the fracturing of the sport!!!!!!!!:sifone::sifone:

correct.

XtremeRacing
07-12-2009, 11:15 PM
The only way to save Offshore is TV, you will never be able to make it on the gates. There are only 2 or 3 events that you can charge and control a gate, and that really doesnt help. A event like KW cost over $500,000.00 and with out sponsor and advertisers buying TV time it is almost impossible to come close to braking even. But we all know that already, thats why the things that need to change arent happening fast enough the money isnt there. Everyone has great idea and they are the same ones that we have been kicking around for yrs. It not rocket science, it actually pretty easy to make it all work if you have the money to through at it. That is the direction SBI is taking, and hopefully as it unfolds the changes will follow.

DAREDEVIL
07-13-2009, 12:15 AM
KW is the exception. Back in the mid-90's, US Offshore tried to put on a race off of Sea Pines on Hilton Head Island, SC. I offered to assist Bill Gifford make it happen because it is a gated community and would be a great way to track who is honestly there for the race, and who just happened to be on the beach anyway. Never happened, for a variety of reasons.

It has been the biggest argument against "NASCAR on the water". NASCAR accurately tracks attendance, which gives sponsors a benchmark for return on investment. Not to mention the income from the gate as well. Apples (NASCAR) and oranges (offshore). If there are 25,000 people on the beach during an offshore race......how many just happened to be there? I'm just playing devil's advocate here - trust me, I love our sport.

I bet Sarasota,,,,,95 % of the people are there because of the race.
U can't even get a parking spot @ Lido after 8:30 in the morning becasue of the event.
The parade is there becasue of the boats,,,biggest i have ever seen .
Clearwater is going to be big as well,,,maybe not like sarasota but who knows?!
KW is always big but last year the econimy showed ,,the year before allot more spectators where there.
Michigan City i heard will be good ,,all the people up there are looking forward to it,,so most of them will be there for the event.
I also think the citys that are not major boating citys ( like most of them in FL ) are the ones we would need to look at because in FL it realy is a all day thing seeing boats and fast ones aswell,,,not like mine .LOL:driving: