New Handgun Advice Needed

[Hilltop Kyle]

I'm looking at getting a new handgun and I'm up in the air on what cal. I think I want an HK .45 but some say it's too big and bulky. A buddy has an HK .45 that I've shot and I really liked it. Others are telling me to go with 9mm but I think I want something with more "knock down" power. I have very limited knowledge with handguns. My experience is with long guns. Any suggestions?

[MahopacMarine]

I'm looking at getting a new handgun and I'm up in the air on what cal. I think I want an HK .45 but some say it's too big and bulky. A buddy has an HK .45 that I've shot and I really liked it. Others are telling me to go with 9mm but I think I want something with more "knock down" power. I have very limited knowledge with handguns. My experience is with long guns. Any suggestions?

Knowing that you are married...... keep them locked up:rofl::rofl:
Please see other post. http://seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5279

Sorry Kyle, I had to!

[Hilltop Kyle]

Damn man...That's just wrong!!! :ack2::ack2:

[MattBMiller]

I picked up a Springfield XD45 a little while back. Shoot one if you get a chance. Very nice for the money.

If you're going for a carry gun, the Para-Ordnance Warthog is a great fun. I should have one ina week or two. :D

[Chris]

It depends what you're goingto do with it. You mention "knock down power" so I assume you're thinking about personal defense. If so, an autoloading pistol is a poor choice for a first handgun. While they're more reliable that they used to be, unless you possess a significant proficiency at clearing drills, in the dark, while being accosted or fired upon, that failure-to-feed might cost you your life. A revolver is a much better choice. 38 special with a +P load is the ballistic equivalent to a .40 S&W and a .357 Magnum is going to have a distinct margin over the 45ACP. Plus, a pistol you don't have with you isn't really of much use. If you're going to carry, the HK45/USP is a large, cumbersome piece designed to be a military sidearm, not a conceald carry weapon. If it's not comfortable, it will likely get left at home.

I tell EVERYONE this same thing about a first handgun. Make the commitment to become proficient in its use. Take some lessons. Most CCW instructors offer advanced training. Then shoot often. If you're not shooting at least 3 or 4 times a month, you have no business carrying a weapon.

[Tempest38]

Keep in mind more knock down power is non discretionary... In other words going through a wall or two to a loved ones bedroom or even the house next door... One reason my CCW instructor said hollow points to cut down penetration is as much a consideration to get the right ammo in home defense as the gun itslef.

[Sydwayz]

http://seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4910

You probably saw my above thread. The nice thing about the Sig pistols is with a rail and clip swap, you can have several guns in one.

[MattBMiller]

Keep in mind more knock down power is non discretionary... In other words going through a wall or two to a loved ones bedroom or even the house next door... One reason my CCW instructor said hollow points to cut down penetration is as much a consideration to get the right ammo in home defense as the gun itslef.

A 12 Ga with 00 buck is still the best home defense gun.

[Tony]

Go to a range with a large rental department, rent several makes and calibers and buy the one that feels the most natural.

[jmeng]

Good advice from everyone else. Just to add, knockdown power doesn't do you much good if you miss. Most people can shoot a 9mm (or .38) way better than they can shoot a .45.

[Sea-Dated]

Good advice from everyone else. Just to add, knockdown power doesn't do you much good if you miss. Most people can shoot a 9mm (or .38) way better than they can shoot a .45.

I went with the .40 because I saw it as great compromise between the stopping power of a .45 withouth the kick and it is easier to shoot than the .45.

[gerritm]

Go to a range with a large rental department, rent several makes and calibers and buy the one that feels the most natural.

Good advice. Get comfortable and try out a few before buying. I have the HK USP in .40. It would not make a good concealed carry weapon. .40 caliber ammo is a little cheaper and easier to find than .45 Keep that in mind. I carry a Ruger 9mm with self defense hollow points. It is a fairly large frame pistol also, but I feel comfortable with it. Not one you can hide under a t-shirt with shorts. If I was going to carry at all times I would go with Chris's suggestion and get a S&W 38 revolver.

[Chris]

The comment oabout shotguns for home defense is right on. Compared to a 12ga pump, handguns are toys. Virtually all indoor confrontations happen at ranges of less than 9 feet. Why not use something absolutely foolproof?

The other issue is is overshoot and over-penetration. You own each projectile you fire. If you kill the neighbor's kid in the process, there's not going to really be any way out of it. Big magnum calibers penetrate- they'll go through walls and doors. )) buck doesn't. And back to the 9 foot thing- you don't need magnum stopping power at those ranges. .40S&W was mentioned- a good compromise caliber. More power than the 9mm/38 Special but controllable, even in a smaller pistol. The hollowpoints are a benefit on over-penetration but at the same time, they're more jam-prone in all but the most expensive handguns. If over-penetration is a concern, there's an ammo available called "frangible". It's made to work well on human tarets but shatter when striking hard objects.

[Hilltop Kyle]

Thanks for all the input. Some things I had not considered. Here is a little more background on me. I have been handling firearms for 20+ years. I have been hunting since I was 7yrs old. I have several shotguns and have lots of experience with them. I have a S&W airweight .38 that I keep under the bed with hydra-shock bullets. I do like the idea of some 00 buck shot in my Rem. 870 as an additional option. It's just my wife and I and the dog in our house and we live in the country with no neighbors homes that could possibly be hit with a handgun round. Maybe with my .338. Like I said earlier, I shot a friend's HK 45 and I really liked the feel and accuracy. I was able to shoot a good group at about 15yds. If I do any concealed carry it will be with the 38 because of its small size. The 45 or maybe 40 would be a side arm if carried. I have no experience with a 40 cal, I thougt it's ammo would be more difficult than the 45 to buy. Should I be giving more thought to the 40?

[Hilltop Kyle]

Our accountant's husband has a S&W 9mm SW9VE that she brought in and it's practically brand new. Only 5 rounds fired through it. I can buy it for $300 with 3 clips, is that a good gun? It is one to add to my collection, I still want either a 45 or 40.

[ZBODaytona]

Love my 40.....have a 9 as well.. Looking to get a 45 one day.. But like stated the 40 is a good little round.. My 40 is also some what compact..it stays near me all the time.

[Knot 4 Me]

Kyle, remind me not to pi$$ you off if I see you in July/August at Cumberland for the Formula get together! :sifone: I'm a SA 1911-A1 fan. The XD is nice as well.

[Sea-Dated]

I have an SA 4" XD .40 and love it. It is a large gun but with the right holster you can carry it wearing anything. I am looking at stepping up to SA 1911 .45 3" sometime this year but I really love my XD .40

[jmeng]

Our accountant's husband has a S&W 9mm SW9VE that she brought in and it's practically brand new. Only 5 rounds fired through it. I can buy it for $300 with 3 clips, is that a good gun? It is one to add to my collection, I still want either a 45 or 40.

Is that a Sigma model? If so the price seems a little high. Seems like they are around $300 new? I could be wrong on that though. Never really cared for the S&W Sigmas. Seemed very entry level to me. If you're looking for a polymer frame auto, the S&W MP is nice and the Springfield XD is popular too.

[Hilltop Kyle]

Kyle, remind me not to pi$$ you off if I see you in July/August at Cumberland for the Formula get together! :sifone: I'm a SA 1911-A1 fan. The XD is nice as well.

He He... Better watch out. Thanks for the info on the SA.

[Chris]

40 S&W is probably the most common caliber in law enforcement today. It bridges beautifully between the relatively anemic 9mm and the larger-framed and heavier recoiling 45ACP. It originated after the FBI commissioned a number of 10mm weapons, then found out that their "smaller" (women) agents had difficulty with the recoil- essentially that of a 357 magnum. Smith came up with the 10mm short- the 40 S&W.

You can find many easily-concealable 40 cal handguns on the market today.

As far as home defense, the one thing the shotgun has that little else can match is the intimidation factor. You REALLY don't want to shoot anyone. It's very expensive and time-consuming even if you prevail and don't have to go to prison. A pistol? You have to maybe shoot a couple holes through your own walls to get someone's attention. Who needs that. The shotgun? Everyone knows what that sound means.

[Hilltop Kyle]

Is that a Sigma model? If so the price seems a little high. Seems like they are around $300 new? I could be wrong on that though. Never really cared for the S&W Sigmas. Seemed very entry level to me. If you're looking for a polymer frame auto, the S&W MP is nice and the Springfield XD is popular too.

Yes it is a sigma. It retails for $480 and on gunbroker they all seem to be around $350-400.

[Hilltop Kyle]

40 S&W is probably the most common caliber in law enforcement today. It bridges beautifully between the relatively anemic 9mm and the larger-framed and heavier recoiling 45ACP. It originated after the FBI commissioned a number of 10mm weapons, then found out that their "smaller" (women) agents had difficulty with the recoil- essentially that of a 357 magnum. Smith came up with the 10mm short- the 40 S&W.

You can find many easily-concealable 40 cal handguns on the market today.

As far as home defense, the one thing the shotgun has that little else can match is the intimidation factor. You REALLY don't want to shoot anyone. It's very expensive and time-consuming even if you prevail and don't have to go to prison. A pistol? You have to maybe shoot a couple holes through your own walls to get someone's attention. Who needs that. The shotgun? Everyone knows what that sound means.

Thanks for all your help! I've learned a lot from you.

[jmeng]

In that case $300 doesn't seem bad.

[gerritm]

Check out a few forums on the S&W Sigma semi's, not very good quality but OK for a once in a while shooter. I looked at them. Sells for around $349-$399 at Academy Sports. Based on the Glock design, lots of plastic and I do mean cheap plastic.

I have the HK USP Tactical in .40 S&W and love the way it handles and shoots. Definetly a large framed gun. Very accurate and virtually maintenance free other than cleaning. A lot more expensive, somewhere in the $750-$$1000 range.
Do your research on whatever you like, just like a boat, you get what you pay for.

[Audiofn]

It depends what you're goingto do with it. You mention "knock down power" so I assume you're thinking about personal defense. If so, an autoloading pistol is a poor choice for a first handgun. While they're more reliable that they used to be, unless you possess a significant proficiency at clearing drills, in the dark, while being accosted or fired upon, that failure-to-feed might cost you your life. A revolver is a much better choice. 38 special with a +P load is the ballistic equivalent to a .40 S&W and a .357 Magnum is going to have a distinct margin over the 45ACP. Plus, a pistol you don't have with you isn't really of much use. If you're going to carry, the HK45/USP is a large, cumbersome piece designed to be a military sidearm, not a conceald carry weapon. If it's not comfortable, it will likely get left at home.

I tell EVERYONE this same thing about a first handgun. Make the commitment to become proficient in its use. Take some lessons. Most CCW instructors offer advanced training. Then shoot often. If you're not shooting at least 3 or 4 times a month, you have no business carrying a weapon.

The only thing I would add to this is that revolvers tend to be more accurate as the barrel does not move in the gun when it is cycling. You will also get more shots on target with the smaller rounds. So when people talk about "stopping power" they often times don't think about how many shots they can get on target with the larger caliber stuff. Stopping power would be very low on my criteria for a carry gun. You hit some one with a 22 and they are going to be bumming. Most important would be that it would allow me to cycle all the rounds (for me that means a revolver). Second would be accuracy, if you can not hit what you need to hit then what is the point. My carry gun of choice is a S&W Mini frame .38 with the hammer delete option. I had a guy custom make me 12 rounds for carry purposes. I can toss it in my pocket and no one is the wiser.

[MattBMiller]

I had a guy custom make me 12 rounds for carry purposes.

Be careful with hand loads for self defense. I read an article a while back about a guy that shot and killed a guy with hand loads in self defense. Some laywer twisted that into pre-meditated murder because he felt that off the shelf ammo was insufficient. :rolleyes: I need to find that story again...

[Chris]

The only thing I would add to this is that revolvers tend to be more accurate as the barrel does not move in the gun when it is cycling.

Any SiG, Glock or HK is going to be out-of-the-box more accurate that 99% of casual shooters will ever be able to utilize. An off the shelf HK Tac is way more accurate than I'll ever be able to exploit. When you're talking about shooting under pressure where one of the participants isn't going to make it and at common close-combat ranges (inside an average home) , accuracy is pretty far down. I want the most reliable piece I can get and I want proficiency in using it in all positions (how many of you have spent time shooting left-handed? How many have done a one-handed clearing drill?) The tool is only as useful as the person employing it.


Be careful with hand loads for self defense. I read an article a while back about a guy that shot and killed a guy with hand loads in self defense. Some laywer twisted that into pre-meditated murder because he felt that off the shelf ammo was insufficient. :rolleyes: I need to find that story again...

It was actually a police officer. There have been many cases of an over-zealous, idealistic prosecutor pushing an issue like this. You have to ask yourself- if they'll prosecute a cop, what would stop them from prosecuting you?

There have been many self-defense prosecutions based on the shooter's predilection to commit the act. If you present circumstances that lead authorities to believe you may have been overly-anticipating or inviting an opportunity to shoot someone, the right guy might just take that and run with it. Just remember, someday you might have to explain yourself to twelve people that couldn't duck jury duty. If you have serious latent Rambo fantasies, expect them to be paraded in front of this bunch. If you posted 3 years ago on an internet forum "...I'd kill 'em all" or "...make sure to drag them back inside", expect that to be blown up to poster size and placed on an easel for you to explain.

[Ratickle]

I am not an expert but, My caliber of preference is the .357 Magnum for a handgun. The main reason, you can practice all you want to with .38 ammo and if you really believe you are going into a dangerous situation, and want to use your CCW, you can load it with a varity of loads that have plenty of power.

The only thing I haven't found is a hammerless version with real good reviews. I may not be looking in all the right places though.

Home defense, 12 guage pump.

Here's a link to some reviews about carry weapons.

http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_SizeMatters.htm

[jmeng]

Keep in mind that full power 357 mag loads in a small frame revolver (S&W J Frame, Ruger SP101, etc) are no fun to shoot. I've shot exactly one cylinder full of 357 mags in my wifes SP101 and it'll be a while before I do it again. Plus you lose a lot of velocity with the short barrel. In the small, light revolvers you're better off sticking with .38 +P loads IMO.

[Trim'd Up]

I would definately look at the XD's. I recently bought an XDm in 45 acp and love it. I actually shoot it a little better than my USP40. It is acurate, comfortable, and reasonably priced. Cabela's has the regular XD's on sale for $499 right now.

[Ratickle]

Keep in mind that full power 357 mag loads in a small frame revolver (S&W J Frame, Ruger SP101, etc) are no fun to shoot. I've shot exactly one cylinder full of 357 mags in my wifes SP101 and it'll be a while before I do it again. Plus you lose a lot of velocity with the short barrel. In the small, light revolvers you're better off sticking with .38 +P loads IMO.

That's why it makes a nice gun. You can shoot all you want with .38's but can still have major stopping power if you felt it was really warranted. Usually, it's not. But......

[Hilltop Kyle]

Well...Looks like I'm going to have an extensive pistol collection by the time I'm done.:rofl:

Seriously though, I appreciate all the input! You guys are a big help. I have just about decided to buy the S&W 9mm just as a "keep in the truck for occasional use". I've got the .38 Revolver that I will continue to keep by the bed and use for Concealed Carry. (I'll keep the 12ga close by too.) And I think you've convinced me to look for a .40 cal (Something?) to use as a primary shooter and carry when I'm in the woods or on the Harley. Thanks again. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions. :sifone:

[ImaPoser]

Keep in mind that full power 357 mag loads in a small frame revolver (S&W J Frame, Ruger SP101, etc) are no fun to shoot. I've shot exactly one cylinder full of 357 mags in my wifes SP101 and it'll be a while before I do it again. Plus you lose a lot of velocity with the short barrel. In the small, light revolvers you're better off sticking with .38 +P loads IMO.

It must be a personal choice thing. My SP101 is my carry gun of choice, and I shoot at the range with it at least every other week. I practice with .357 rounds since that's what I would be using in a real world situation, and typically shoot 50-100 rounds each time out. For some reason, I am more accurate shooting it with .357 loads than .38.

[Slick02]

Kimber Ultra II 45 with a High Noon inside the pants holster.

[X-Rated30]

I shot a friend's XD subcompact in 40 cal last friday. I shoot a USP FS in 40 cal normally. I was TOTALLY impressed. Nice gun.

[Audiofn]

Be careful with hand loads for self defense. I read an article a while back about a guy that shot and killed a guy with hand loads in self defense. Some laywer twisted that into pre-meditated murder because he felt that off the shelf ammo was insufficient. :rolleyes: I need to find that story again...

It all depends on what you are doing with them I beleive. If you put a tip on them that is not allowed then you are screwed if you just increase/decrease velocity then you are fine. There are lots of things you can do to adjust the way a gun shoots with ammo. For example my Benelli does not like the stuff we have to shoot at our range.

Always fun to watch Tom Knapp shoot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5uHt4AwYb4

[jmeng]

It must be a personal choice thing. My SP101 is my carry gun of choice, and I shoot at the range with it at least every other week. I practice with .357 rounds since that's what I would be using in a real world situation, and typically shoot 50-100 rounds each time out. For some reason, I am more accurate shooting it with .357 loads than .38.


I guess I'm just a recoil wuss then. :sifone: I can shoot full bore .357 loads all day in my S&W 686 with a 6" barrel and a .45 doesn't bother me at all. But magnum loads in that SP101 were brutal to me. That was with that original small, hard grips. Probably will be better now that I swapped it out with a Hogue.

[Chris]

I guess I'm just a recoil wuss then. .

Not necessarily. There are some people that have recoil sensitivity. I've seen very large, very tough guys not be able to shoot moderately-recoiling weapons. Also, and especially with a handgun, if it doesn't fit well, you're not going to shoot it well and sometimes that poor fit can translate to exaggerate drecoil effect.

If you compared hands with 50 adult men this afternoon, you'd see a dramatic variation in size and shape. But I'm not aware of anyone that makes multiple gripframe sizes in their handgun line.

Can you imagine pro baseball with one standard-sized bat?

[itilldo]

Kimber Ultra II 45 with a High Noon inside the pants holster.

seen my buddies Ultra in SS version last Saturday...I gotta get one of them :sifone:

[gerritm]

Not necessarily. There are some people that have recoil sensitivity. I've seen very large, very tough guys not be able to shoot moderately-recoiling weapons. Also, and especially with a handgun, if it doesn't fit well, you're not going to shoot it well and sometimes that poor fit can translate to exaggerate drecoil effect.

If you compared hands with 50 adult men this afternoon, you'd see a dramatic variation in size and shape. But I'm not aware of anyone that makes multiple gripframe sizes in their handgun line.

Can you imagine pro baseball with one standard-sized bat?

Sig has come up with something similar. A modular handgun that you can customize to fit.

http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=54&productid=66

[PARADOX]

My neighbor is a sherrif, they have their own thoughts about handguns.
For myself... I got a dog that already .. well.. let's just say I'm happy their not dead..
For home protection 12 GA.. no substitude.
For a handgun... 9MM. Very few are "experts" with a handgun. 20-30' and the rounds are all over. No matter what's the stopping power.
My 9MM holds 17 in the clip and 1 in the chamber... I know out of the 18 rounds .. one will hit.. and one is most likely enough.... enough to swap the clips... SO I look for fast, and as many rounds I can get off in the shortest time. 45's are great but even the military is switching to 9 mills due to the round count. FOr fun I got the 357 mag revolver and I'm looking for a 44 mag rev.. but I have a tough time finding one. :(

[Tony]

Keep an eye out on www.gunbroker.com and www.gunsamerica.com Theres also loads of activity on the AR-15.com, and Glocktalk.com firearms listings.

[VetteLT193]

I disagree on number of rounds. 1 good shot is better than 10 missed. If you can't hit someone in your house with a 10 round mag you have bigger issues. The military it makes sense because of the are at war.

I have a 45 subcompact and a 9mm compact for carry. The 9 is a Sig. It has NEVER jammed. every load I have put through it has fired with no exception, and I have put thousands of rounds through it.

The 45 subcompact is a taurus Millennium pro, it will stove pipe if you limp wrist it. It has only happened to me one time though.

The 45 was developed by the army to kill people with a whole lot of testing to back it. The other bullets were designed for other reasons all together. That in itself is a reason to go 45.

I personally feel that 40's have more kick than 45's do. the charge is hotter and I struggle to shoot them accurately. (I have had accuracy trouble with compact 40's and no trouble with SUBcompact 45 or any other size 45 I have shot)

[Chris]

I disagree on number of rounds. 1 good shot is better than 10 missed. If you can't hit someone in your house with a 10 round mag you have bigger issues. The military it makes sense because of the are at war.

Pistols aren't for everybody. Shotguns are.



The 45 was developed by the army to kill people with a whole lot of testing to back it. The other bullets were designed for other reasons all together. That in itself is a reason to go 45.

The 45 is a hundred-year-old caliber designed for somewhat weak pistols. The case itself has head problems. Most commercial pistols exacerbate this problem with open, unsupportive feed ramps. The 45 Super is a much more potent cartridge but few production firearms have the sterngth to shoot it ( exact same outside dimensions as the 45ACP). But that's OK. The 45 does OK just as it is. It's very uncommon in law enforcement use because of over-penetration issues. In reality, the 38 Special has ended more arguments than any other caliber ever conceived. As in your first point, if you can't hit it, you can't stop it.




I personally feel that 40's have more kick than 45's do. the charge is hotter and I struggle to shoot them accurately. (I have had accuracy trouble with compact 40's and no trouble with SUBcompact 45 or any other size 45 I have shot)

That depends alot on the pistol- moreso than the cartridge. You're dealing with basic physics. You have two factors, mass and velocity. And to a degree, acceleration. If you take a common off-the shelf load like the Remington Express, their 40 cal load at 180 grains and 1000 fps delivers 412Ft/lbs of muzzle energy. If you take their 185 gr 45 ACP load at 1000 fps, it delivvers 411 ft/lbs. Now obviously if you load your 40 with the 155 grain, 1300fps load that delivers an additional 150 ft/lbs of energy, your felt recoil is absolutely going to be different.

[JETJOCK]

HK .40 USP

Best overall BANG for the buck.


I have a AR-15 for home protection.....:}

[MattBMiller]

I have a AR-15 for home protection.....:}

What are you protecting yourself from?!?:biggrinjester:

[PARADOX]

No frakking recoil problem here. Unlimited ammo too. :rofl:

23788

[Chris]

HK .40 USP

Best overall BANG for the buck.


I have a AR-15 for home protection.....:}

With a spring change, you can shoot the 45 Super in the 45 USP. Very light recoil and loads of stopping power.

[Ratickle]

No frakking recoil problem here. Unlimited ammo too. :rofl:

23788

You get to get a laser sight, otherwise you'll probably miss.:sifone:

[Hilltop Kyle]

Will I notice a significant difference in accuracy/range with a compact vs. standard? I'm going to go check them out first hand but I'm probably going with the HK .40 or .45. I decided against the 9mm S&W that I was gonna buy. Pretty much a waste of $300 since I want the .40 or .45 anyways.

[Tony]

The differences in accuracy between the two frame sizes of the same caliber will be minimal with the pistol itself, when placed in the hands of the shooter the differences can be huge. I had a Glock 23 (.40 mid size frame) that I was deadly accurate with. I had a Glock 27 (.40 baby frame) that I couldnt hit a barn with. Was it the guns fault, absolutly not. Like I said in an earlier post, it at all possible try before you buy.

Or just do like a tried and true gun nut, and buy one of each.;)

[Chris]

The biggest difference between the two is going to be sight radius and secondarily, firmness of grip. Sight radius is the distance between the front blade and the rear aperature. The shorter it is, the greater the sighting error will be at any given distance. An inch is a big deal when you're talking about 4 or 5 inches total. The second one can be an issue too. I have really big hands and on many compact pistols, I have one finger hanging off. On the HK compact, it's not too bad, plus the gripframe is large enough with a Pachmayr slip-on that I can hold it well. Some of these ultra-small 45's? Forget it. I'd be better unloading the mag and throwing the rounds at them. Seriously, I'd rather have a little PPK in 380 that I can actually hit something with than an over-powered pocket cannon that I can't grip.

[Ratickle]

The biggest difference between the two is going to be sight radius and secondarily, firmness of grip. Sight radius is the distance between the front blade and the rear aperature. The shorter it is, the greater the sighting error will be at any given distance.





An inch is a big deal when you're talking about 4 or 5 inches total.

I wanna make a comment so bad.....:sifone:




The second one can be an issue too. I have really big hands and on many compact pistols, I have one finger hanging off. On the HK compact, it's not too bad, plus the gripframe is large enough with a Pachmayr slip-on that I can hold it well. Some of these ultra-small 45's? Forget it. I'd be better unloading the mag and throwing the rounds at them. Seriously, I'd rather have a little PPK in 380 that I can actually hit something with than an over-powered pocket cannon that I can't grip.

But the cannon may scare them more.

Seriously, I've never tried a slip-on grip. They actually work well vs the aftermarket replacement grips?

[Chris]

No replacement grips on polymer guns. The gripframe is one piece.

[gerritm]

I wanna make a comment so bad.....:sifone:





But the cannon may scare them more.

Seriously, I've never tried a slip-on grip. They actually work well vs the aftermarket replacement grips?


If you have larger hands they work well. I have them on my HK and my Ruger. Give different feel to the stock grips, add a little size and a better finger grip in the front.

[PARADOX]

Qute:
An inch is a big deal ...
I have really big hands...


Naaaah... not gonna touch this one either. :rofl:

[MattBMiller]

Qute:
An inch is a big deal ...
I have really big hands...


Naaaah... not gonna touch this one either. :rofl:

You'd touch it you sicko!:rofl:

[Never Enuff]

Someone mentioned home protection and shotguns and 00 buck. You might enjoy watching this--
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
There seems to be some pretty good infor on this site--including info about handguns.
Jay

[Ratickle]

Someone mentioned home protection and shotguns and 00 buck. You might enjoy watching this--
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
There seems to be some pretty good infor on this site--including info about handguns.
Jay

Thanks, nice info....


Never would have guessed #4 shot would do almost nothing to stop a person.

[MattBMiller]

Here's my XD45 next to my Glock 27. The XD is super accurate but a little large to carry, expecially in summer clothing. The Glock is easy to conceal, but not nearly as accurate.

[MattBMiller]

I find myself carrying my PPK/S alot lately. Super easy to conceal.

[Ratickle]

I find myself carrying my PPK/S alot lately. Super easy to conceal.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


And how do you answer when they ask "what's that in your pants"?

[MattBMiller]

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


And how do you answer when they ask "what's that in your pants"?

Depends what she looks like!

[Slick02]

seen my buddies Ultra in SS version last Saturday...I gotta get one of them :sifone:

Mine is the SS version with the polished upper slide and a little action work to smooth it out a little.:sifone:

[Chris]

Check your state's concealed carry laws. "Printing", which is the appearance of being armed, is a criminal violation. You can't carry something that is obviously a weapon, even though it's covered by your shirt.

Just like it's not a crime to carry a non-concealed weapon, but they'll still arrest you and charge you with menacing, inducing panic or one of a number of other legal technicalities

[itilldo]

Mine is the SS version with the polished upper slide and a little action work to smooth it out a little.:sifone:



Here is a pic of his along with his holster...the price on them are up there , even the used one's ....I just loved the way that gun felt in my hand it was soo balanced for a 45

[planetwarmer]

If you are only going to buy 1 pistol, I would buy 1 that you are going to enjoy shooting. The likely hood of you ever shooting someone is slim to none. If you buy a gun that you will enjoy shooting, you will be more likely to shoot it. The more you shoot the gun, the better shot you will be. I can tell you that the caliber doesn't matter as much as well placed shots. There are countless stories of Cops emptying their magazines and not hitting their intended target. There are also countless stories of people dying from a single .22 bullet.

I own a Glock model 27 (.40 cal) that I carry concealed. I prefer to shoot a 9mm. The rounds are half the price, the kick is half as much. You can reacquire your target much easier with less recoil (higher potential for better shot placement). To me, the .40 has a lot of "snap" that the 9 and 45 don't have. After 50 rounds or so, it gets kind of tough on your hands and wrists.

You need to be well trained (I don't mean shooting at paper targets) if you are going to have a weapon for personal defense! After all, you just introduced a gun and now you are in a fight for your life.

[Slick02]

Here is a pic of his along with his holster...the price on them are up there , even the used one's ....I just loved the way that gun felt in my hand it was soo balanced for a 45


yep, thats pretty much mine if you polish the upper slide and ad the black combat grips.

[getchasum111]

Here's my XD45 next to my Glock 27. The XD is super accurate but a little large to carry, expecially in summer clothing. The Glock is easy to conceal, but not nearly as accurate.

i like the small glocks...i have a glock 33...357 sig.....i love that little gun...

[Slick02]

If I can figure out how to to do it, here are a couple pictures of my Ultra 10.
Pictures may not be great, taken with my phone/camera.

[Sea-Dated]

If I can figure out how to to do it, here are a couple pictures of my Ultra 10.
Pictures may not be great, taken with my phone/camera.

Nice little gun.....

[Slick02]

Love the gun, so far not wild about the holster, I wear nothing but jeans and its damned uncomfortable tucked into the right front of my pants, trying to figure something else for a holster, I've got a Colt Mustang .380 pocketlite that is the sh*t to carry, small, light and easy to conceal, just don't feel like it's enough gun at times.

[Wardey]

Check your state's concealed carry laws. "Printing", which is the appearance of being armed, is a criminal violation. You can't carry something that is obviously a weapon, even though it's covered by your shirt.

Just like it's not a crime to carry a non-concealed weapon, but they'll still arrest you and charge you with menacing, inducing panic or one of a number of other legal technicalities

Florida does not have a printing law but I do not know about other Sates. Florida law is just to have the gun "covered". Dave

The 2008 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 790
WEAPONS AND FIREARMS

790.001 Definitions.--As used in this chapter, except where the context otherwise requires:

(2) "Concealed firearm" means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.

[Hilltop Kyle]

I finally made a decision and went with and HK USP .45 full size. I LOVE it!! Once I decided it would not be my choice for Concealed I decided to go with full size. It drives tacks! I've only shot about 50 rounds thru it so far, but I'm more accurate with it than any pistol I've ever shot.

[MattBMiller]

Anyone here have a Para-Ordnance Warthog in .45? I let one get away a couple weeks ago at the locl gun store and haven't been able to get ahold of another yet.

[Trim'd Up]

I had a Para SSP, but ended up trading it. It was a good shooter and was slicker functioning than alot of more expensive 1911's I have shot.

[Chris]

I finally made a decision and went with and HK USP .45 full size. I LOVE it!! Once I decided it would not be my choice for Concealed I decided to go with full size. It drives tacks! I've only shot about 50 rounds thru it so far, but I'm more accurate with it than any pistol I've ever shot.

HK are like cheating. A bad shooter instantly becomes OK and a good shooter instantly becomes very good. I have never put one in someone's hand that didn't immediately tighten up by 50 to 100%.

The best one for that is the P7 :)

[Trim'd Up]

HK are like cheating. A bad shooter instantly becomes OK and a good shooter instantly becomes very good. I have never put one in someone's hand that didn't immediately tighten up by 50 to 100%.

The best one for that is the P7 :)

I agree! I love my USP 40. I am glad I bought it a few years ago. They are pricey nowdays.

[DAREDEVIL]

here is what u guys need.:sifone:

[gerritm]

I agree! I love my USP 40. I am glad I bought it a few years ago. They are pricey nowdays.

I have an HK USP Tactical in .40 and love it. HK is always a good choice.

[searaycer]

Had a Beretta .40 nice gun, but really liked my buddies S&W 10mm.

[Chris]

10mm is too hot for a autoloading handgun. Other than the Colt, every one I've ever seen suffers from frame cracking. It's nothing more than a 357Mag. If you like the caliber, buy a Smith 19 and enjoy half-price ammo.

[Wardey]

10mm is too hot for a autoloading handgun. Other than the Colt, every one I've ever seen suffers from frame cracking. It's nothing more than a 357Mag. If you like the caliber, buy a Smith 19 and enjoy half-price ammo.

I have a Colt Delta Elite 10MM. Love the gun but ammo is scarace. I took a deer down with it once. Dave

[smokeybandit]

I just found this thread. I used to own a gun store in south florida, so I know a bit about the subject. The reality of owning a gun for personal protection is that you not only will most likely never use your gun against an intruder or attacker, but you are also a lot more likely to hurt a friend, neighbor, or family member. With that being said, always get a gun that you enjoy shooting. Don't worry about stopping power.

The 3 guns that I always loved to shoot were the Sig Arms P-210 in 9mm, Browning Hi-Power in 9mm and the HK P7M8 in 9mm. I always found the M13 to be cumbersome. If I had to pick 1 of those, it would be the Sig Arms. They are hard to find, but they are great shooters.

[Wardey]

Of all the handguns I own, and thats ALOT, my Sig is by far my favorite and my choice for carry. Sig P229 in .40 cal. Dave

[Chris]

The P210 he writes about is the Swiss-made one and the only "real" SIG. The rest are SIG Sauer.

[smokeybandit]

Chris gets an A+. Once you have shot a Sig Arms you will never confuse it with a Sig Sauer.

[Sydwayz]

Of all the handguns I own, and thats ALOT, my Sig is by far my favorite and my choice for carry. Sig P229 in .40 cal. Dave

I don't carry my Sig 229 9mm since I bought my KelTec Pf-9; but my Sig 229 is my favorite gun.

[Hilltop Kyle]

I agree! I love my USP 40. I am glad I bought it a few years ago. They are pricey nowdays.

Yes they are... I got lucky, my .45 was used but you couldn't tell. It looks brand new. That saved me some $$.:sifone:

[Hilltop Kyle]

HK are like cheating. A bad shooter instantly becomes OK and a good shooter instantly becomes very good. I have never put one in someone's hand that didn't immediately tighten up by 50 to 100%.

The best one for that is the P7 :)

So I'm a bad shooter huh???:boxing_smiley: :biggrinjester:

[Chris]

If you bought an HK, you can now be a well-disguised bad shooter. ;)

[Tony]

I had a kid fresh out of USAF bootcamp come ovet to shoot one evening with a shiny new Kimber, he kept raving about how his new Kimber 45 was the best of the best and nothing was better. After watching him send a few dozzen rounds down range most of them entirely missing the paper, I stuck a USP in his hands. I seriously thought he was going to cry after I told him what they can be purchased for compared to what he grossly over paid for his pride and joy Kimber.

[Padraig]

If you are not a hand-gunner, start with a .22 auto, become proficient then and only then move up to something like a .45acp. I have observed many shooters who start with a large caliber and develop a flinch and never become proficient.

[Chris]

Very true. Recoil sensitivity can hit even the biggest, toughest guy. And it can be damn near impossible to get rid of.

[Hilltop Kyle]

If you bought an HK, you can now be a well-disguised bad shooter. ;)

I'll settle for that.:sifone:

[Padraig]

Very true. Recoil sensitivity can hit even the biggest, toughest guy. And it can be damn near impossible to get rid of.

When NYS first allowed handguns for deer in NYS many local experienced shotgun hunters ran out and purchased .44 mags, .41 mags and .357 mags. A short time later slightly used large caliber handgun could be purchased cheap as the people who bought them could not hit the broad side of the barn with their new hand guns. Some of these were club members at my gun club but were rifle shooters not hand gunners. They would tell a experienced hand gunner that the pistol was not accurate. The experienced shooter would take the pistol and 99.9% of the time shoot a nice tight group. When the owner then fired it you could see the flinch coming before the gun was close to firing. Some of them then worked hard and overcome the flinch but many sold the pistol and went back to rifles and shotguns. Lesson was .... start out with a small cal. or at least light loads.

If you want to see if you have a flinch, have some one load your magazine or cylinder with a dummy round or two mixed in. It is also a good method to use to help get rid of flinching.

[2112]

I love this thread, read through it twice; time to resurrect it.

I am thinking of adding a .45 to may collection. I am a Sig Fan and have been eyeballing the P220 Equinox although I don't need the shorter version, just like all the bells and whistles.

Also looking at the P220 Dark Elite. Not as pretty but probably a more accurate piece. Also, not readily available.

This is for fun. Shooting at a range and the pride of ownership. Have a P230 for carry and a 9MM sphinx for home (yes, I need to think shotguns).

So any opinions out there between the two Sigs?

[IrishTornado]

Kimber Ultra II 45 with a High Noon inside the pants holster.

Couldn't agree with you more and I own one. I also own a .40 Glock a 9mm Ruger and a 5shot pocket .22 revolver. My home defence gun is a Remington 870 with a pistol grip and 00 buck.

I have a CCW and hope I never am found in a position I need to use it, but if I am I'm prepared. I also agree with Chris in a circumstance of being in the dark while fumbling around with a handgun isn't my ideal situation and prefer to rack the 12ga and swing and fire. I've adapted mine with a surefire light in place of the forearm so when I grip it the light comes on helps in the dark as well as blinds a potential intruder. I've always told anyone that comes into my house make sure your calling my name if it's after I've went to bed.

[IrishTornado]

On another side note does anyone know much about the Taurus Judge? I was looking at it for more of a home defense weapon than a carry, but considering you can load it with either .45ACP or .410 shot shells seems like a good carry weapon as well. And being a revolver it's reliable...Thoughts?

[BUIZILLA]

On another side note does anyone know much about the Taurus Judge? I was looking at it for more of a home defense weapon than a carry, but considering you can load it with either .45ACP or .410 shot shells seems like a good carry weapon as well. And being a revolver it's reliable...Thoughts? friend of mine has a Judge and he juggles between the .410 shot and hard loads as well... he likes it.... may have to look into this.... who has idea's for a 5 or 6 hit .22 auto for carry? I want an ankle strap carry when riding the Harley... I have big hands but want to keep the weight down.. great thread..

[Chris]

The .410 would be good if you got into a scrap with a pigeon or squirrel. But it's not something I'd want to bet my life on trading fire with someone that wanted to kill me.

If I really considered carrying a .22, it would only be in a revolver. The cartridge is too long and narrow to have the confidence I'd want in feeding in an autoloader. Also the rimfire priming is cause for concern. Lastly would be its ballistic capabilities, which aren't bad but not stellar either. On the other hand, a weapon sitting in your nightstand is only helpful if you're in bed. You gotta' have it with you for it to be of any use.

[publius]

No handgun has "knockdown power", they simply don't generate the power. you don't state which HK you are talking about, the MK23 is huge and expensive, (poor choice) the USP is a conventional size and is a good weapon. The Ruger P series doesn't get the credit it deserves, I have lots of guns and it is the one auto that I know will go bang no matter how dirty it is or what i put in it. Caliber doesn't really matter with today's modern HP designs. This is considering adequate rounds, 9mm - 45ACP. For your first gun I would suggest a good .357 revolver though. Reliable, easy to shoot (especially w/.38spl.), and easy to maintain. You also need a good .22 so you can shoot a lot and become proficient.

[JETJOCK]

Springfield XD series?

Anyone talk about these yet? I had a chance to fire one along side my .40 USP HK. I was very impressed with the firing and handling, I fired a 9MM and my groupings were UFB! Much tighter than my HK.

They are priced really well, and NRA handgun of the year!

I am looking to buy a 9MM for about $550.00 ! Half of what it would cost for an HK!

[Sea-Dated]

Springfield XD series?

Anyone talk about these yet? I had a chance to fire one along side my .40 USP HK. I was very impressed with the firing and handling, I fired a 9MM and my groupings were UFB! Much tighter than my HK.

They are priced really well, and NRA handgun of the year!

I am looking to buy a 9MM for about $550.00 ! Half of what it would cost for an HK!

I have the 4" XD .40 and love it. I can shoot better with this gun than any other I have shot. Only downsize is it is a little wide to be comfortable carrying. Tha is why I am looking for a 3" 1911 .45 for carry purposes.

[JETJOCK]

I have the 4" XD .40 and love it. I can shoot better with this gun than any other I have shot. Only downsize is it is a little wide to be comfortable carrying. Tha is why I am looking for a 3" 1911 .45 for carry purposes.


YOU GUYS HAVE GOT TO SHOOT AN XD!


I was shocked! This cannot be stated enough!

[RLJ676]

YOU GUYS HAVE GOT TO SHOOT AN XD!


I was shocked! This cannot be stated enough!

Nice gun, but if you want a better polymer gun, try a Smith M&P. Better ergo's (for most), lower barrel for better recoil, made in the US, just all around better.:USA: I was just reading an M4 forum handgun section and A LOT of people are trading in XD's for M&P's.

Also, if you want a 40 but haven't liked the feel of it yet, try an M&P, it was designed around that cartridge and many report it handles it very well.

I sold a Sig 229 Elite (nice, expensive gun) because it wasn't nearly as fun to shoot as the M&P 40.

[Trim'd Up]

My dealer told me friday that he has had quite a few M&P's come back due to issues lately. They are nice guns although I like the the XD better.