It's good to be King........

[Brownie]

Three of our tin Cougars leading the Key West Worlds in the early 80's. Gentry's red 48' looks funny because Sammy James, the throttleman de jour, discovered that it didn't fit in his shop, so he cut off the bow by a foot or so. We had a couple or three years where nobody messed with us. Our braintrust in England had more empirical knowlege about the full range of cats in general than the rest of the world put together, but the world was gaining fast. James Beard, Clive Curtis, Peter Birkett, the Cunningham brothers and the rest of them gave us some great stuff to play with. In my five years there, we built 85 or 90 different boats, no two alike. We sunk more tonnage of raceboats than the average U-boat in WWII, but we learned something each time.

[phragle]

good god Brownie!! be carefull!!! naming a thread "It's good to be king" people will start to think you have succumbed to the kool aide!! Your stories are too good and your knowledge to vast to partake in the evils that abound!!

[Ratickle]

Three of our tin Cougars leading the Key West Worlds in the early 80's. Gentry's red 48' looks funny because Sammy James, the throttleman de jour, discovered that it didn't fit in his shop, so he cut off the bow by a foot or so. We had a couple or three years where nobody messed with us. Our braintrust in England had more empirical knowlege about the full range of cats in general than the rest of the world put together, but the world was gaining fast. James Beard, Clive Curtis, Peter Birkett, the Cunningham brothers and the rest of them gave us some great stuff to play with. In my five years there, we built 85 or 90 different boats, no two alike. We sunk more tonnage of raceboats than the average U-boat in WWII, but we learned something each time.

How long was the course then?

[skrap]

The Benihana Grand Prix in the late '70's and early '80's was 208 miles for Open Class 1.

[phragle]

innovation and dedication are wonderfull things.. I try to explain to people on another forum I am on that bolting on aftermarket parts makes your quad as fast as the next...stand back..think build something better.

[Sean Stinson]

The Benihana Grand Prix in the late '70's and early '80's was 208 miles for Open Class 1.


That was real offshore racing not tunnel boat racing like they have now

[skrap]

If you can see land...you ain't racin' offshore!

[Scarab KV]

If you can see land...you ain't racin' offshore!

:iagree:

[tony davis]

the Cunningham brothers .

John Cunningham builds all of my fuel tanks. Great guy and a fantastic welder.

[T2x]

good god Brownie!! be carefull!!! naming a thread "It's good to be king" people will start to think you have succumbed to the kool aide!! !!

Take it from me....Brownie is the ONLY one who can claim the "Crown" from that era. We tried to knock the mantle off and made a pretty good effort, and so did Apache and Fabio...... but in the end the 80's belonged to Cougar.

Since then the "Crown" has rested on only one other head.... Peter Hledin's.

When you think about it, very few marques (2) in the last 30 years have dominated the sport worldwide.

My hat is off to both groups......

T2x

[T2x]

That was real offshore racing not tunnel boat racing like they have now

Don't insult tunnel boat racing...............

What they have now is more like a parade.

T2x

[Airpacker]

Don't insult tunnel boat racing...............

What they have now is more like a parade.

T2x

albeit, a very fast one....................

[T2x]

albeit, a very fast one....................

You obviously haven't slept through a "Bracket" class race lately.

:D :D

[Fast Shafts]

I went to alot of races in the 70's and 80's, it was more of a "parade" back then, waiting for 20 minutes for a 40' boat to "race" by every 20 minutes-at 70 MPH. Now class 6 races at that speed. Although its not perfect, bracket racing in the ocean (with short courses) is still better, and more competative than the "old days". I guess the older one gets-the better it was.
As a fan, I liked what Mike A. did with Factory I and 2. Close racing, courses that one could see (they still raced in the ocean), and similar boats racing. If I'm not mistaking, this is how/why NASCAR became so big...
OK T2X, start slamming me....
I do agree that Brownie/Cougar brought this to another level and could claim the "Crown" from that era.

[Sean Stinson]

Lets face it the speeds todays boats are running coupled with an old time course.....if they could survive it..... would be real offshore racing!!!!

Sorry Rich didn't mean to offend the tunnel boat guys....

Also I know of many boats back in the day that were faster than 70 mph....The question was could they do it in real water not bay racing.....

[T2x]

.
As a fan, I liked what Mike A. did with Factory I and 2. Close racing, courses that one could see (they still raced in the ocean), and similar boats racing. If I'm not mistaking, this is how/why NASCAR became so big...
OK T2X, start slamming me....
I do agree that Brownie/Cougar brought this to another level and could claim the "Crown" from that era.

Why would I slam you? To each his own. I agree that Factory 1, 2 and 3 ("Spec" Racing) levelized the playing field (Factory 3 is today's Super Cat Lite). I also agree that the same "spec" formula is what drives Nascar and,while I do sleep through Sprint Cup races on Sunday afternoons at times, that has more to do with my easy chair and general end of the week exhaustion than the competition model presented. On the other hand if Nascar had a "speed limit"....nobody would tune in. Add to that highly suspect GPS technology, and the whole "bracket" concept is called into question. I watched Joe Imprescia take a boat that was propped at 75 mph max on the limiters and be DQ'd because he "broke out" at over 90 mph......according to the onboard GPS.

My fundamental belief is that close racing involves actual racing....not locking a bunch of raceboats together with an artificial, inconsistent, and sometimes subjective speed tether. I know many of the bracket guys and I respect some of them, but in most cases what they do each week is more like showing off than racing.

T2x

[Sean Stinson]

The old Key West course was real water....trust me if that course was run today then you might have something!!!!!!!!!

[T2x]

I went to alot of races in the 70's and 80's, it was more of a "parade" back then, waiting for 20 minutes for a 40' boat to "race" by every 20 minutes-at 70 MPH. Now class 6 races at that speed. Although its not perfect, bracket racing in the ocean (with short courses) is still better, and more competative than the "old days". I guess the older one gets-the better it was.
.

I agree with the 70 mph speeds in the 70's, but the racing was very even...and much closer than 20 minutes between boats.

BUT!!!!!

As far as the 80's are concerned...... speeds skyrocketed.

The Cougars, Conquests, Buzzi's, Cuvs, Skaters, Maelstroms and Shadow/Chris cats all raced at speeds between 100 and 160 mph in that decade...(H*ll, Willie Diaz AVERAGED over 100 mph in a Sport class boat as early as 1982 and the Open boats were in the same range already). The racing was quite close as well (The slugfest between Popeye's and Morales at Sarasota being one prime example).......

Today you have Turbine and Extreme boats racing against themselves..... and that is not only boring, it is an insult to real racing. On the other hand, I am more amazed (dismayed) at the so called "fans" of this nonsense, because their support just feeds the poor competition model that they tolerate without knowing any better.

T2x

[T2x]

The old Key West course was real water....trust me if that course was run today then you might have something!!!!!!!!!

One year we ran halfway out to the Dry Tortugas, came back and ran to Sand Key made a left and ran parallel to the reef the full length of the island, back in toward shore...along the South Coast of Key West and back into the harbor....only to start the course all over again. Now you can see the whole course from a single vantage point...... and none of it is in big seas.....but there is unparalled opportunity to wave to the crowds in the harbor....and you are never out of sight of your "posse".

T2x

[smokeybandit]

Having been to a few races with the new inshore format I must say that I find it boring. The problem with the format is that it just isn't offshore racing. Maybe it's semantics. The sport was created to test man and machine in the open ocean. This seems a whole lot more like hydroplane racing. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it's just a totally different animal. The sport drew more attention and spectators when we raced "offshore". Maybe that was the characters or the drug money but the sport has not grown into what it was in the heyday.

[Fast Shafts]

T2X,
I agree with the above post. There are always "inequities" with racing. A four engine 50' Cougar racing against a 36 Cigarette in Open I was not very fair-which caused teams either buy two boats (a cat and a V) or choose venues that suited their boat.

I would love to race "heads up" unfortunately, there are so many different types of hulls/engines/drives that the rules of earlier days won't work today.

The principle behind bracket racing is great-set up your boat for MAXIMUM speed, then race in that bracket. If all races were in the Ocean, boats should not break out, there have been very few breakouts in the ocean races. I don't think I've ever seen a breakout in Class 6 in the Ocean. I realize class 6 isn't the premire class, however it is the most affordable racing which makes this class successfull. As in other forms of racing, (drag racing) there are dozens of classes. Most don't want to watch the "unlimited VW class". Just because one may be in the smallest class doesn't deminish the fact that they are racers. We may not be in the premire class, however, we have the hearts of the premire class.

[Fast Shafts]

"Offshore" racing moved "inshore" years ago. Remember Sammy James stating he didn't want to race on a "Mid Western mud puddle" (lake Erie). Other race venues that were flat in the late 1970's-Tampa Bay Fl, Detroit Mich., Ft. Myers Fl, Lake St. Claire Mich, and Sandusky Ohio. Offshore racing in calm water is not new!!

[Sean Stinson]

I dont remember a Superboat being able to race an open boat other than they ran at the sametime. But Kaiser's Systems boat ran against Copelands boat more than once......Can I get a witness Rich

[Sean Stinson]

Sarasota, Ft Myers, Chicago, and other lake races have been known to be very rough!!!!

[Fast Shafts]

Sean,
I believe the rules (Open Class I) stated that any boat over 45' had no engine restrictions. This was the rule that Copeland exploited for his benefit.
On OCCASSION those venues could be rough. Just as any lake.

[smokeybandit]

T2X,
I agree with the above post. There are always "inequities" with racing. A four engine 50' Cougar racing against a 36 Cigarette in Open I was not very fair-which caused teams either buy two boats (a cat and a V) or choose venues that suited their boat.

I would love to race "heads up" unfortunately, there are so many different types of hulls/engines/drives that the rules of earlier days won't work today.

The principle behind bracket racing is great-set up your boat for MAXIMUM speed, then race in that bracket. If all races were in the Ocean, boats should not break out, there have been very few breakouts in the ocean races. I don't think I've ever seen a breakout in Class 6 in the Ocean. I realize class 6 isn't the premire class, however it is the most affordable racing which makes this class successfull. As in other forms of racing, (drag racing) there are dozens of classes. Most don't want to watch the "unlimited VW class". Just because one may be in the smallest class doesn't deminish the fact that they are racers. We may not be in the premire class, however, we have the hearts of the premire class.

I have to jump in on this one. The ocean should be the equalizer, not some pre-determined maximum speed. If you go ocean racing you rarely have to worry about maximum speed. The old stock classes usually drew the most entrants and were the most competitive. There were quite a few races where we had 20+ boats starting in the stock classes. We were all racers and all respected each other for going out there and beating the crap out of ourselves.

[Fast Shafts]

Smokey,
I agree. Lets only race in the Ocean!!!

[Sean Stinson]

Sean,
I believe the rules (Open Class I) stated that any boat over 45' had no engine restrictions. This was the rule that Copleland manipulated for his benefit.
On OCCASSION those venues could be rough. Just as any lake.

Thats not the case Superboat could run with no restrictions. Open class was limited to 1000 cubic inches normally aspirated.... If you super/charged or turbo/charged there was a penalty assessed to you wich knocked the cubic inches down to 714 cubic inches....hence the 355 cubic inch Gentry Turbo...I may be off a bit in the specs but very close

[Sean Stinson]

Also I believe Open Class was limited to 42'....Rich or Brownie could verify this or I can dig up an old UIM/APBA rule book from back in the day. Intially I think OPT used pretty much the same rules as well.....

[Fast Shafts]

Sean,
I'm at work so I dont have access to check now. I believe that the Superboat class was created after all the Open class boats bit*hed this wasn't fair. I think the rule was boats under 45' were restricted to 1000 CID.

[Sean Stinson]

I have to jump in on this one. The ocean should be the equalizer, not some pre-determined maximum speed. If you go ocean racing you rarely have to worry about maximum speed. The old stock classes usually drew the most entrants and were the most competitive. There were quite a few races where we had 20+ boats starting in the stock classes. We were all racers and all respected each other for going out there and beating the crap out of ourselves.

That was real racing....busted ribs, fat lips, and compressed spines were a common occurence back then as well.

Also the boats took a beating as well and submerges or sinkings also happened to the big as well as the small boats....

[Sean Stinson]

Sean,
I'm at work so I dont have access to check now. I believe that the Superboat class was created after all the Open class boats bit*hed this wasn't fair. I think the rule was boats under 45' were restricted to 1000 CID.

I am getting old so I might be off just a bit in specs so I will see if I can find an old rule book....As I stated earlier I thought 42' was the cutoff but I do know the CID limits were 1000 and approx 714 for Turbo-Super/Charged applications...

[Fast Shafts]

I'm getting old too, but I think it was 734 CID.:sifone: It's all good-I love the sport!!

[Sean Stinson]

I'm getting old too, but I think it was 734 CID.:sifone: It's all good-I love the sport!!
You could be right there I know it was cubic inch penalty assessment to level the playing field.....And if memory serves me correctly Superboat was born in 1983 and Al Copeland poured copius amounts of fundulation into that class!!!

[Dude! Sweet!]

Seems like the power/weight ratio equalizer is working for P1 right now (if one is to believe the press releases). I've seen some sucess with similar formulas work in various auto-racing venues as well.

The painful reality is the '80s and '90s unchecked spending and technology ultimately had an adverse impact on motorsports. Whether you're talking about superboats or a Williams full-active F1 car... The speed, the cost and the technological curve scared sanctioning bodies into legislating this stuff out of existence (often at the behest of competitors that couldn't keep up) and now in may respects and at many levels we're left with "spec racing" of one form or anther (I'll argue that F1 is really a spec class at this point, but built by different constructors and then there's the travesty that Indy has become).

The shame of it is the spending really hasn't come down, it's just burned up in refinement of existing tech rather than expansion into new tech (NASCAR's "lipstick on a pig" approach to car development with "truck arm, big spring" technology and pushrod, carbed engines for example)...

OK, I've gotten completely off course here (something that's apparently hard to do in short track "offshore racing"). Ultimately, my point is the sactioning bodies need to be responsible enough to do what's right for the sport rather than what's right for one or two "competitors". People need to learn that if you can't afford to compete with someone, you should drop down a class and find someone you can compete with, rather than demand a rules change in a fast class...

Oh and T2x, thanks for upping the ante on the "Dennis v Don" thread found elsewhere... You're credibility and insight really helped take the joke to the next level and also accidentally helped make that discussion interesting and entertaining.

[Brownie]

Unlike cells dividing, each split diminishes both parties. Up until the Indy split, I could name every Indy car and driver. Now I don't give a flying f**k. I was US delegate to the UIM Offshore Commission for 3 years, back in the 60's, and my job was keeping harmony in the rules, so that we could race over here, and over there and vice versa. Now look at it.... For that matter, I am against the split with OSO. I guess I was born without an ego. Good news, though, I met a guy the other day who was NOT an offshore world champ.......

[Sean Stinson]

Unlike cells dividing, each split diminishes both parties. Up until the Indy split, I could name every Indy car and driver. Now I don't give a flying f**k. I was US delegate to the UIM Offshore Commission for 3 years, back in the 60's, and my job was keeping harmony in the rules, so that we could race over here, and over there and vice versa. Now look at it.... For that matter, I am against the split with OSO. I guess I was born without an ego. Good news, though, I met a guy the other day who was NOT an offshore world champ.......

So I guess you saw my old bald headed boss a few times over the indy years

[T2x]

Unlike cells dividing, each split diminishes both parties. Up until the Indy split, I could name every Indy car and driver. Now I don't give a flying f**k. I was US delegate to the UIM Offshore Commission for 3 years, back in the 60's, and my job was keeping harmony in the rules, so that we could race over here, and over there and vice versa. Now look at it.... For that matter, I am against the split with OSO. I guess I was born without an ego. Good news, though, I met a guy the other day who was NOT an offshore world champ.......

Amen........

On the other hand, I can name every Indy car driver.

Danica Patrick

Is anybody else racing? :D

T2x

[T2x]

Oh and T2x, thanks for upping the ante on the "Dennis v Don" thread found elsewhere... You're credibility and insight really helped take the joke to the next level and also accidentally helped make that discussion interesting and entertaining.

What makes you think it was "Accidently"...? :p

[Dude! Sweet!]

It's funny, I was looking at a (free from the LA Boat show) issue of Performance Boats yesterday (yes in the crapper) and I noticed that Sunsation has the "Offshore World Champion" in their logo. It occured to me that one of these days when I'm really committed to procrastinating on something very important, I need to go through and see how many boat companies advertise themselves (primarily in their logos) as the Offshore World Champion (and yes, I'm feeling pretty parenthetical today)...

Indy meant a lot to me growing up. It represented a special bond that I had with my father and grandfather. It had a sense of history and direction that connected one generation to the next. Currently, it's most profound meaning is it gives Robin Miller a foil to say hilariously derisive things about people who consider themselves motorsporst professionals.

[7xchamp]

Unlike cells dividing, each split diminishes both parties. Up until the Indy split, I could name every Indy car and driver. Now I don't give a flying f**k. I was US delegate to the UIM Offshore Commission for 3 years, back in the 60's, and my job was keeping harmony in the rules, so that we could race over here, and over there and vice versa. Now look at it.... For that matter, I am against the split with OSO. I guess I was born without an ego. Good news, though, I met a guy the other day who was NOT an offshore world champ.......

It started going bad in the Nordskog days when he was pres. of APBA, He said that the UIM world championships were out of the grasp of the average guy campaigning an open class boat, that`s why the Italians were winning the championships, they hired the top guns from america and had 2, 3, and 4, boats campaining around the world. As a result of his work came the single format world championships which stayed UIM for awhile. Under the rules you had to compete in your own APBA or Italian , South American and European, races to qualify to participate, and you had to finish all races in the top three positions. We had to have permission and be sponsored by APBA or other bodies to Race for the UIM world championship.
Bottom line is that there were three sanctioning bodies who worked TOGETHER !!!!!!! UIM was the ultimate sanctioning body, then APBA, then the Local clubs who were APBA affiliates. All used the same rule books, and had the same recognized classes. I think it was three classes recognized world wide. Open class for the big guys, Modified class, Production class, . The local club classes could have run what you brung classes, but if you wanted to compete nationally you had to be a member of a club and a member of APBA, If you raced UIM also you had to have a letter from your APBA afiliated club saying you were qualified and were sponsored.
Seemed simple enough and worked pretty good until the Indy split. Now nobody knows who`s who, and like Brownie says we got more World Champions than carter has pills. In the day we had a UIM ultimate world Champion which was represenatative all the world local clubs, and all the world sanctioning bodies. After that you had your US1 champions in APBA as did the Europeans have ther champions. After that you had your club champions in there respective areas. Like I said Simple days simple times. Hope I have made some sense about how it was and everyone pretty much knows what happened to get where they are today. Worst thing that happened is that APBA Offshore sold out to individuals, and split from the UIM. Currently I think the best racing is UIM !!!!!!!!!!!!! I still enjoy racing and watching, I just don`t know who is who or what equip. they race Etc. Names I recognize and look forward to watching are names like Geico, Bud light, Tomlinson , Steve Curtis, Stan Ware, Bob Teague, Amsoil etc. Just as a past racer and having watched the last Key West worlds, that`s all that stick out in my mind. Used to be like Brownie said we knew almost every class and every person racing, and we knew there stats. Yeah STATISTICS what they had done, what there equip. was etc. we new who to hate and who to love, again like indy. Guess all things change, but nothing says they can`t go back to the same or similar, we should learn from the past, even though we don`t have recorded history in Offshore, That`s another subject and my finger is tired from all the typing.

[Sean Stinson]

It's funny, I was looking at a (free from the LA Boat show) issue of Performance Boats yesterday (yes in the crapper) and I noticed that Sunsation has the "Offshore World Champion" in their logo. It occured to me that one of these days when I'm really committed to procrastinating on something very important, I need to go through and see how many boat companies advertise themselves (primarily in their logos) as the Offshore World Champion (and yes, I'm feeling pretty parenthetical today)...

Indy meant a lot to me growing up. It represented a special bond that I had with my father and grandfather. It had a sense of history and direction that connected one generation to the next. Currently, it's most profound meaning is it gives Robin Miller a foil to say hilariously derisive things about people who consider themselves motorsporst professionals.


I wasn't aware you grew up bro:sifone::sifone::sifone:

[Sean Stinson]

It started going bad in the Nordskog days when he was pres. of APBA, He said that the UIM world championships were out of the grasp of the average guy campaigning an open class boat, that`s why the Italians were winning the championships, they hired the top guns from america and had 2, 3, and 4, boats campaining around the world. As a result of his work came the single format world championships which stayed UIM for awhile. Under the rules you had to compete in your own APBA or Italian , South American and European, races to qualify to participate, and you had to finish all races in the top three positions. We had to have permission and be sponsored by APBA or other bodies to Race for the UIM world championship.
Bottom line is that there were three sanctioning bodies who worked TOGETHER !!!!!!! UIM was the ultimate sanctioning body, then APBA, then the Local clubs who were APBA affiliates. All used the same rule books, and had the same recognized classes. I think it was three classes recognized world wide. Open class for the big guys, Modified class, Production class, . The local club classes could have run what you brung classes, but if you wanted to compete nationally you had to be a member of a club and a member of APBA, If you raced UIM also you had to have a letter from your APBA afiliated club saying you were qualified and were sponsored.
Seemed simple enough and worked pretty good until the Indy split. Now nobody knows who`s who, and like Brownie says we got more World Champions than carter has pills. In the day we had a UIM ultimate world Champion which was represenatative all the world local clubs, and all the world sanctioning bodies. After that you had your US1 champions in APBA as did the Europeans have ther champions. After that you had your club champions in there respective areas. Like I said Simple days simple times. Hope I have made some sense about how it was and everyone pretty much knows what happened to get where they are today. Worst thing that happened is that APBA Offshore sold out to individuals, and split from the UIM. Currently I think the best racing is UIM !!!!!!!!!!!!! I still enjoy racing and watching, I just don`t know who is who or what equip. they race Etc. Names I recognize and look forward to watching are names like Geico, Bud light, Tomlinson , Steve Curtis, Stan Ware, Bob Teague, Amsoil etc. Just as a past racer and having watched the last Key West worlds, that`s all that stick out in my mind. Used to be like Brownie said we knew almost every class and every person racing, and we knew there stats. Yeah STATISTICS what they had done, what there equip. was etc. we new who to hate and who to love, again like indy. Guess all things change, but nothing says they can`t go back to the same or similar, we should learn from the past, even though we don`t have recorded history in Offshore, That`s another subject and my finger is tired from all the typing.

Couldn't have said it better Richie....I think the old days need to comeback....All the nonsense needs to stop...We need to give it a kiss (Keep It Simple Stupid)....

[Dude! Sweet!]

i wasn't aware you grew up bro:sifone::sifone::sifone:

zing!!! :D

[Fast Shafts]

Great post 7X!! I specificlly agree with all the clubs running the same rules.

[Rik]

Thats not the case Superboat could run with no restrictions. Open class was limited to 1000 cubic inches normally aspirated.... If you super/charged or turbo/charged there was a penalty assessed to you wich knocked the cubic inches down to 714 cubic inches....hence the 355 cubic inch Gentry Turbo...I may be off a bit in the specs but very close

348 ci is what Gentry made:)

[Sean Stinson]

348 ci is what Gentry made:)

Like I said a bit off in the specs but very close.....Whats up Rik?? Hows the Golden State

[Rik]

Like I said a bit off in the specs but very close.....Whats up Rik?? Hows the Golden State

Hot N Cold.

[T2x]

As I recall the first year that the Popeyes 4 engine Superboat arrived on the scene it ran in the Open class under the over 45 foot rules which allowed unlimited Cu.In..... or some formula. The following year the rules were changed to make a separate Superboat class and that is what Gentry, Ciasulli, Morales and others went into with 3 and 4 engine behemoths.

T2x

[Sean Stinson]

As I recall the first year that the Popeyes 4 engine Superboat arrived on the scene it ran in the Open class under the over 45 foot rules which allowed unlimited Cu.In..... or some formula. The following year the rules were changed to make a separate Superboat class and that is what Gentry, Ciasulli, Morales and others went into with 3 and 4 engine behemoths.

T2x

There you go I will take Rich's word anytime concerning rules:sifone::sifone:

[T2x]

There you go I will take Rich's word anytime concerning rules:sifone::sifone:

Why? Because I broke so many? I am doing this from memory using my hazy brain cells....not necessarily a safe bet these days. :D

T2x

[Sean Stinson]

Yours are better than mine brother....Maybe its lack of alcohol in the system or just not being all involved with it anymore!!!!!! I do think we should do a series bringing back the old formats of racing and the old courses!!!!

[MikeyFIN]

Pssstt guys.. there´s a split brewing in the UIM too as we speak...

[FastDonzi]

Pssstt guys.. there´s a split brewing in the UIM too as we speak...


Thats because there's Boats,& Racing, and people with money who haven't won a "World Championship" Yet, and as long as they keep having to race against Real competition they never will, so they'll split off and start their own org (Series) where their boat fits their rules and they can win easier than racing against a bunch of proffesionals. I bet I could make a good living just selling "World Champion" Decals