So a couple of guys pulled up for lunch in their boats.

[T2x]

First post..............

T2x

[Top Banana]

First post..............

T2x

About time you showed up.

Dave Craig had the boat on the right, who was in the other one?

Nice vintage car in the shot to give a little 60's period feel.

[cosmic12]

WOW, now theres somthing you don't see everyday, or any day for that matter. great pic

[OldSchool]

First post..............

T2x

Welcome!!!

[Airpacker]

Old boats, old car, OLDER poster :)

Hi Rich.

[NJgr8ful]

Magic Throttles Arms himself in the Apache thread and now THE "magic throttle arm" narrator himself joins the crew! Welcome Rich and another Jersey rep in da house. :cheers2:

Nice pic btw ... are those the '09s models and vintage car in the driveway??? LOL :cool:

[boatme]

Ahhh the good ole days :)

[T2x]

By the way...That photo is courtesy of ex Lake X employee..Digital Jef.

To Charlie's question...the 7000 boat may never have been raced..... According to Dave Switzer's interview in Extreme boats 2 years ago...I believe that is the boat he referred to as being custom built for Carl Kiekhaefer. The "Gulfwind Marine" signage was always related to Odell who is seen in the background in that photo, but I have no record of that hull in any races..... If it did run it may have been in the Gold Coast Marathon... and perhaps broke down. The pictures have 1966 Merc stripes on the motors....and all but one of the wooden wings seemingly disappeared soon afterward.

T2x

[J-Bonz]

T2X........... You the man, Great to have YOU on board!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jr.

[Ratickle]

First post..............

T2x

For a first post you couldn't find anything more classic?:sifone:

Great to have you aboard, welcome:coolgleamA:

[RACESDAD]

2 things... the chrysler 300 and i have one of those dock cleats on my desk

[Phantom1]

Another Miss Skyway

[Magicfloat]

That car has been driving me crazy. I,too,first thought a Chrysler 300,but something wasn't right,especially the taillights and headlights. I believe it is a 1962 Imperial,tho made by Chrysler,technically it is a separate brand of it's own,Imperial.If business wasn't so bad i wouldn't have time for such trivia:) Thanks,Rich,very rare photo.

[Shane]

That is a cool pic and looks to be in front of the housing quarters aka "The Motel" at The Lake.

[RACESDAD]

i loved that place

[Edward R. Cozzi]

It's definitely a 1962 Imperial. That was the only year they did the taillights like that.

[T2x]

It's definitely a 1962 Imperial. That was the only year they did the taillights like that.

You know we are a bunch of old farts when everybody recognises a 1962 Imperial..........

What makes us "special" old farts is when the same group recognises the "wings".

T2x

[AGITATOR]

hi t2x by the way the old comcom still works in the agitator haha

[socalstone]

sweet photo.

[jayboat]

You know we are a bunch of old farts when everybody recognises a 1962 Imperial..........

What makes us "special" old farts is when the same group recognises the "wings".

T2x

Great photo, thanks for posting it. I always loved the tail lights on that car- straight out of the Jetsons. Or was it the other way around? Perfect complement to the wings.

[Strip Poker 388]

You know we are a bunch of old farts when everybody recognises a 1962 Imperial..........

What makes us "special" old farts is when the same group recognises the "wings".

T2x


Thats before my time:)Cool pick

[T2x]

hi t2x by the way the old comcom still works in the agitator haha

So you got a bargain..........? I'm glad it's working out for ya.

T2x

[T2x]

T2X........... You the man, Great to have YOU on board!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jr.

Thank you...apparently I am no longer "the man"....... I am now an "Icon"!

:sifone:

T2x

[Bobby Saccenti]

Thank you...apparently I am no longer "the man"....... I am now an "Icon"!

:sifone:


T2x

Hey Rich

Good to see you made it..

[wild thang]

Cool picture, post some more.

[Magicfloat]

Rich,post some pics that show why they were called "flying wings".Ernie T in a crowded race course,and the smooth water photo with a wing flying in the air,and of course Kitson's Champion spark plug ad.We old farts have to show the younger guys what the Switzer brothers created over 40 years ago.And a photo or 2 of Darren's wing would also be nice,a design 40 years ahead of it's time with the new power that it was designed for,but wasn't available back then.

[NNRT]

Hello Richie

New to this site-

Phil

[Strip Poker 388]

Rich,post some pics that show why they were called "flying wings".Ernie T in a crowded race course,and the smooth water photo with the wing flying in the air,and of course Kitson's Champion spark plug ad.We old farts have to show the younger guys what the Switzer brothers created over 40 years ago.And a photo or 2 of Darren's wing would also be nice,old school design with new school power.



Id like to see that very much!!!

[T2x]

Rich,post some pics that show why they were called "flying wings".Ernie T in a crowded race course,and the smooth water photo with a wing flying in the air,and of course Kitson's Champion spark plug ad.We old farts have to show the younger guys what the Switzer brothers created over 40 years ago.And a photo or 2 of Darren's wing would also be nice,a design 40 years ahead of it's time with the new power that it was designed for,but wasn't available back then.

Your wish is my command

[T2x]

More....

As the song said...."These are a few of my favorite things....."

[T2x]

Going

[T2x]

Going!

[T2x]

Gone!!!!!!

[seeroy]

Gone!!!!!!

Rich - You need to bring your wing to "OFF2009". Talk about showing an old toy to new kids, that would be the ultimate. The only thing that would make it better would be stacks!

Hope to see you in October. Best Regards - Steve Sirois

[MarylandMark]

Most of the pics have the motors trimmed in (from what I can tell).

If you went neutral would that make the rear too light or the boat get too flightly?

[PARADOX]

Gowwedd.. Those were the days.

First boat race I ever saw was on the Danube .. back in 1967. They also had a few water skiiers doing some exhibition. Being a little kid.. I thought ,, that's the greatest thing I ever saw. It was.. Got hooked on skiing.. did a bit of racing.. got into offshore... life is better with a boat.. :biggrinjester:

Thanks for all the "pioneers" to get me spending every dime I got, on boats...
:seeya:

[T2x]

Rich - You need to bring your wing to "OFF2009". Talk about showing an old toy to new kids, that would be the ultimate. The only thing that would make it better would be stacks!

Hope to see you in October. Best Regards - Steve Sirois

I will try to do that..........If only for static display..I'll also try to get Kitson to bring the Miss Diablo.

Regards back at ya - Rich

[T2x]

Most of the pics have the motors trimmed in (from what I can tell).

If you went neutral would that make the rear too light or the boat get too flightly?

Mark:

Wings are not cats...... they are 4 point hydros...and need stern lift....the bow takes care of itself. If you trim out...you die. Driving a hydro is very unlike driving a cat. Cats turn better but hydros go faster. One of my biggest concerns was that today's props would have too much rake and create unwanted bow lift.... Fortunately mine are 15 degrees and I can trim that out of the boat ( tucked under). My wing becomes completely airborne at about 70 mph and goes eerily silent when that happens.

I always use this photo of my buddy John Sherlock to show what a perfect riding hydro looks like .........although this is a 3 point.

T2x

[Davidmnc]

Mark:

Wings are not cats...... they are 4 point hydros...and need stern lift....the bow takes care of itself. If you trim out...you die. Driving a hydro is very unlike driving a cat. Cats turn better but hydros go faster. One of my biggest concerns was that today's props would have too much rake and create unwanted bow lift.... Fortunately mine are 15 degrees and I can trim that out of the boat ( tucked under). My wing becomes completely airborne at about 70 mph and goes eerily silent when that happens.

I always use this photo of my buddy John Sherlock to show what a perfect riding hydro looks like .........although this is a 3 point.

T2x

That's alot of light under that thing! :ack2:

[Ratickle]

Mark:

Wings are not cats...... they are 4 point hydros...and need stern lift....the bow takes care of itself. If you trim out...you die. Driving a hydro is very unlike driving a cat. Cats turn better but hydros go faster. One of my biggest concerns was that today's props would have too much rake and create unwanted bow lift.... Fortunately mine are 15 degrees and I can trim that out of the boat ( tucked under). My wing becomes completely airborne at about 70 mph and goes eerily silent when that happens.

I always use this photo of my buddy John Sherlock to show what a perfect riding hydro looks like .........although this is a 3 point.

T2x

I know it's not the same thing, but when I was running world record trials in RC boats, we could never get the 4 point hydros to run as fast as the 3points. We did have to run with a fin on one of the front sponsons though, to make them go straight.

Same issue in straights for the full size, or was it only because of the turns the Unlimiteds went with 3 points?

[T2x]

I know it's not the same thing, but when I was running world record trials in RC boats, we could never get the 4 point hydros to run as fast as the 3points. We did have to run with a fin on one of the front sponsons though, to make them go straight.

Same issue in straights for the full size, or was it only because of the turns the Unlimiteds went with 3 points?

Not all hydros are the same...for instance the Switzer 4 point wing featured a fully functional air foil...unlike most other hydros and was considerably faster due to the ground effect management that it featured. The more traditional Power Cat version (see below) from the same era was no where near as fast with the same power......I don't think that 3 points get around turns better than 4 points and in fact some of the best hydros have wider tunnels and "mini pads" at the rear on either side of the center prop shaft. Since Wings have yet to use the turn fins (I just had a set made for mine) as used on most three points today, the question of which design turns better is till open for debate. Certainly no design that is completely airborne can turn at all until it is brought in for a "landing" or utilizes a fin as a turning fulcrum.

As far as scale models are concerned, there are many aspects that do not translate directly with size. For instance water and air density do not correlate to changes in scale speeds. ( Water is harder at 100 mph than at 25 mph with a 1/4 scale model).

By the way I believe that the Power Cat 4 point would have been a LOT faster with full length air traps.

T2x

[Ratickle]

Not all hydros are the same...for instance the Switzer 4 point wing featured a fully functional air foil...unlike most other hydros and was considerably faster due to the ground effect management that it featured. The more traditional Power Cat version (see below) from the same era was no where near as fast with the same power......I don't think that 3 points get around turns better than 4 points and in fact some of the best hydros have wider tunnels and "mini pads" at the rear on either side of the center prop shaft. Since Wings have yet to use the turn fins (I just had a set made for mine) as used on most three points today, the question of which design turns better is till open for debate. Certainly no design that is completely airborne can turn at all until it is brought in for a "landing" or utilizes a fin as a turning fulcrum.

As far as scale models are concerned, there are many aspects that do not translate directly with size. For instance water and air density do not correlate to changes in scale speeds. ( Water is harder at 100 mph than at 25 mph with a 1/4 scale model).

By the way I believe that the Power Cat 4 point would have been a LOT faster with full length air traps.

T2x


Thanks, Sweet Pics

By the way, we got to 87 with our fastest RC and now they've gone over 120. And you're right, we did put mini-pads on the back in race trim vs. straight record trim.

If you look at the high speed video of the record passes in slow motion, the boats would look exactly like the picture you showed, except the front "turn fin" would touch once in awhile. Rest of the time, 1/3 prop only.

We did try a wing with a RC helicopter gyro connected, but it slowed us down.

How did you design your turn fin? Did Steve David have any input from unlimited or something from stuff you tried before?

[T2x]

How did you design your turn fin? Did Steve David have any input from unlimited or something from stuff you tried before?

George Linder re-designed them using as a basis an original set we have from one of Stu Hayim's 46 foot Skater race boats (long story). Bottom line they are a variation of Current High speed lower unit skeg designs. (wedge back, no shark finning). We are using two slightly shorter fins rather than a single long piece, so the boat will be comfortable turning in either direction and neutral in a straight line.

If I tell you any more, Triple Digits will be outside of our shop with the night vision goggles on again, and we wouldn't want that...... :D


T2x

[Ratickle]

If I tell you any more, Triple Digits will be outside of our shop with the night vision goggles on again, and we wouldn't want that...... :D


T2x

:rofl: :sifone: :rofl:

[Trim'd Up]

Speaking of Switzers...I bet you know this one T2x. Actually, I think we discussed it on another forum a long time ago. I drive by it everyday. Snapped a pic with the phone a couple of days ago.
Chad

[MarylandMark]

I bet you know this one T2x.


I'll also try to get Kitson to bring the Miss Diablo.


:)

Have you ever asked them for a ride Trim'd? I would be all over that!

[T2x]

Speaking of Switzers...I bet you know this one T2x. Actually, I think we discussed it on another forum a long time ago. I drive by it everyday. Snapped a pic with the phone a couple of days ago.
Chad

That's the Miss Diablo which has been completely restored to original racing specifications by the owner, Bob Valachovic from Schenectady, NY. He comes from a long and respected family of boat racers (70 years in racing) and the Diablo is just one of his collector pieces. The reason the Diablo is in the St Louis area is Bob not only restored the boat and rigging, he tracked down the driver, multi time World Champion and my buddy, Kenny Kitson, who hails from your neighborhood. Kenny brings the hull to various Vintage events and reunions and does demonstration "flybys". Current Champ boat driver, Lynn Simburger does the maintenance work on it.

As far as history is concerned Miss Diablo won the 9 hour Outboard World Championship on Lake Havasu (Kenny drove alone) and held the dual engine flying kilo record at over 117 mph (Kenny had her over 122 exiting the traps)..... in 1968 or so...with a pair of 135 Hp in line Merc "Stackers".....and no power trim...using his foot to control and "feather" the aileron for hours on end. Kenny is the only guy I listen to about driving my own wing "Dust'n the Wind II", since I raced damn near everything but wings back in the day.

Miss Diablo (for good reason) also graced the Champion Spark Plug ads for many years. Yes, she's fast........ and amazingly nimble in mixed choppy water (just don't run her in swells or over large cruiser wakes at speed).

Finally, yes I know a little about her........... She's number two on my all time most revered race boat list.

T2x

[T2x]

Here's the Diablo after years in a warehouse and before restoration......

[T2x]

This is my number one choice......

Probably, the fastest and most beautiful wing of all, Carl Kiekhaefer's personal hull, a custom built one-off by the Switzer brothers, driven by Odell Lewis and Dave Craig, apparently only at Lake X. Dave Craig told me he wrecked it trying to turn it as tightly as possible at full throttle, per the "Old Man's" orders.

If there's a race boat heaven, I'm sure St Peter met it with his crash helmet and jacket on at the Pearly Gates.

T2x

[Trim'd Up]

:)

Have you ever asked them for a ride Trim'd? I would be all over that!
No, but I intend to. I have only met him a couple of times, and didn't realize who he was until later. Next time I meet him, it will be on my list of talking points. :sifone:

[Ratickle]

This is my number one choice......

Probably, the fastest and most beautiful wing of all, Carl Kiekhaefer's personal hull, a custom built one-off by the Switzer brothers, driven by Odell Lewis and Dave Craig, apparently only at Lake X. T2x

Great pic. Pilot's license required? :)

[Rik]

Rich, it must be the angle of the pic on Diablo, but am I reading it correctly that the engine cowling says "350" ??

Any clear shots of the bottom? I am trying to see the 4 point.

[TrippM]

Rich, it must be the angle of the pic on Diablo, but am I reading it correctly that the engine cowling says "350" ??

Any clear shots of the bottom? I am trying to see the 4 point.


That's 1350 Rik. I think that is a pair of the 1350 BP's

[T2x]

Rich, it must be the angle of the pic on Diablo, but am I reading it correctly that the engine cowling says "350" ??

Any clear shots of the bottom? I am trying to see the 4 point.

Rik:

They are 1350's.....135 Hp each.

Here is a shot of the very first prototype bottom....It's the clearest I have....but had no external airtraps (added later).

The second shot is my hull which is not as clear...but is so dark because of the air traps which act like a skirt from the front to the back steps.

The last shot is Jim Mertens running at Parker, AZ (I think) with a wing and you can just see the forward sponson steps peeking out from the bottom.

Unlike most hydros (and some of the Conquest Cats we built), the wings have skirts on the outside of the sponsons rather than on the inner edges of the tunnel.

T2x

[T2x]

A few more pics.......

[T2x]

If anybody feels like running out and designing a wing concept boat.....a word of caution.

Dave Switzer is the only one who ever got the design right.

This attempt, by famed left coast, outboard race boat builder DeSilva, resulted in 3 hulls being built.....2 of them ended up in fatal accidents....... the third hull (pictured) won the Parker Enduro, but was put in a crusher because of the risk.

[T2x]

One of the most successful Switzer Wing drivers was a guy named Jan Schoonover from Lima, Ohio (see the article below).

Like so many racers (bless their little pea pickin' hearts) he showed his appreciation by trying to design, build and sell his own version of the boat that made him famous.......

He made a few (also below)and they loped and ran so badly in their first races..he later switched to a copy of the Austrian Shultz designs..... The first full tunnel hull to hit U.S. shores.

T2x

[JoeD]

In 1975 I traded a 72 VW beetle for a used 1968 Carlson /Glastron tunnel hull with a mercury 115 short shaft,after I trashed that motor I purhased a brand new Merc 1500xs motor (155hp ) from Kovals Marina and then had Dick Odea order me a prop----boy I thought I had something there.:26:

[T2x]

In 1975 I traded a 72 VW beetle for a used 1968 Carlson /Glastron tunnel hull with a mercury 115 short shaft,after I trashed that motor I purhased a brand new Merc 1500xs motor (155hp -$1650) from Kovals Marina and then had Dick Odea order me a prop----boy I thought I had something there.:26:

10 years earlier...Linder was bitten by the same "Skateboard bug".

We rigged this nightmare at K&K outboard for him when I worked there.......

Fastest I got it up to was about 80....with SSM's....one time..... after hitting a very small ripple.... usually it ran 72 or so.

T2x

[JoeD]

Wow twins------mine was already to heavy in the rear with a single.

[Expensive Date]

Joe I think we need a picture of you in that boat

[JoeD]

I need to pick up a new scanner.

[Top Banana]

One of the most successful Switzer Wing drivers was a guy named Jan Schoonover from Lima, Ohio.
T2x

As a lowly J Class driver, that is a name that brings back memories...... of him just blowing by me with his JJ Class boat......but those JJ guys were like that...Oh, sorry T2, forgot you were a JJ too !!!

Great thread....many memories of those great years. Hey, if we can't get these wankers to race in the ocean again, why don't we start up the Salton Sea 500 again??

[T2x]

Charlie:

Schoonover actually ran in UU.....He blew by me too.... :D

The Salton Race would be great as that area is very depressed right now and the lake is basically dead due to the salinity.......

They used it for Kilos last fall...... it was covered as part of the endless "Bob Teague show" in PowerBoat Magazine.. :p :D

It would be awesome to see the outboards and Inboard race again on that body of water. By the way they do run the Parker Enduro each year in October. It was resurrected a couple of years ago by Ron Hill......

T2x

[XPRESS 33PP]

62 Imerial

[Sean Stinson]

The Salton Race would be great as that area is very depressed right now and the lake is basically dead due to the salinity.......

They used it for Kilos last fall...... it was covered as part of the endless "Bob Teague show" in PowerBoat Magazine.. :p

T2x

Actually Schwarzenegger just set aside a bunch of money with Mary Bono's mission to ressurect the lake....They are supposed to put big filters and start cleaning the water. It actually is a very beautiful place but right now the whole place is ghettoga....lot of meth labs and stuff....one of the biggest problems is all the run off of the fertilizers and pesticides from the neighboring agricultural industry and it is a huge industry!!!! It is a great area and they do have a nice marina there....The potential is phenomenal!!!!

[Dude! Sweet!]

Plus you get all the pleasure of boating in salt water without any of the hassle of actually being in the ocean! :D

[7xchamp]

Charlie:

Schoonover actually ran in UU.....He blew by me too.... :D

The Salton Race would be great as that area is very depressed right now and the lake is basically dead due to the salinity.......

They used it for Kilos last fall...... it was covered as part of the endless "Bob Teague show" in PowerBoat Magazine.. :p :D

It would be awesome to see the outboards and Inboard race again on that body of water. By the way they do run the Parker Enduro each year in October. It was resurrected a couple of years ago by Ron Hill......

T2x

Thought you may find this interesting, I was going through my past memorabillia and found my world championship ring from when I worked for Mercury on the OPC team and we won Havausu which was for world championship, Not sure if you ever saw one or not. It has the Kiekhaefer Mercury Logo on either side, as well as Mercury Racing Team and at the top says World Champions 1970 , My initials, and there is a Molinari with single stacker on the top I think it was Stickle or herring. Garbrecht had rings made for everyone on the team, I believe it was the only time Merc. ever did this for the team, Mike Butler should remember, anyway it`s priceless and a great find for me, cant` believe it was only 39 years ago. All the best to you and Darren.

[Bobcat]

Thought you may find this interesting, I was going through my past memorabillia and found my world championship ring from when I worked for Mercury on the OPC team and we won Havausu which was for world championship, Not sure if you ever saw one or not. It has the Kiekhaefer Mercury Logo on either side, as well as Mercury Racing Team and at the top says World Champions 1970 , My initials, and there is a Molinari with single stacker on the top I think it was Stickle or herring. Garbrecht had rings made for everyone on the team, I believe it was the only time Merc. ever did this for the team, Mike Butler should remember, anyway it`s priceless and a great find for me, cant` believe it was only 39 years ago. All the best to you and Darren.

we would love to see some pics of the ring:)

[tommymonza]

Me too

[7xchamp]

Me too

I`ll see what I can do, I`ll get my daughter to help. She was our team charm in 1992 through 1994 when I won three world superboat titles and set two World kilo records, the team used to kiss her on the head, then go racing, she was a baby, now almost eighteen and a pre professional ballerina, time flies.

[T2x]

Switzer Wings still fly.........

at least mine does.........

[Ratickle]

Cool picture, but you needed it too be bigger.....



http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/ptrose/T2xsSwitzerWing-1.jpg

[Bobcat]

That is bad ass !

[OneBadInjun]

Actually Schwarzenegger just set aside a bunch of money with Mary Bono's mission to ressurect the lake....They are supposed to put big filters and start cleaning the water. It actually is a very beautiful place but right now the whole place is ghettoga....lot of meth labs and stuff....one of the biggest problems is all the run off of the fertilizers and pesticides from the neighboring agricultural industry and it is a huge industry!!!! It is a great area and they do have a nice marina there....The potential is phenomenal!!!!If anyone has been there in the last year, as I have, you would want absolutely nothing to do with the place, or the water, or any of it. Ghetto is exactly right. And nothing decent within driving distance either.

[Sean Stinson]

I know all about bro.....I used to live in Palm Desert....The lake used to be the hotspot back in the day and could again if they would clean it up and get rid of the criminal element....That was all I was stating!!!!!

[Sean Stinson]

So Ed Henry when are you going to stop taking pot shots at all my friends......don't wake the sleeping giants it didn't work out so well for Japan!!!!!

[JOLLEY]

T2x, Great shots of the wing. Was that a vintage race or exibition you were in ?

[T2x]

T2x, Great shots of the wing. Was that a vintage race or exibition you were in ?

Exhibition......some of the guys in the big inboard hydros get pretty racey at some events. That hasn't bitten the OB guys too hard .....yet... ;)

[Switzer It]

are you bringing that too Grand Island? I'd love the chance to see it up close.

[T2x]

I was there last year, but we are skipping it in 2010 (it was Clayton or G.I. but not both). Next event is Lake George in late September and then OFF in Jupiter, FL in October.

we will do Grand Island next year again, but probably with the Power Cat and not the wing. I am concerned about the age of the wing and the stresses on its structure.

[Ratickle]

I am concerned about the age of the wing and the stresses on its structure.

So that's what you call your johnson??????:sifone:

[OneBadInjun]

I am concerned about the age of the wing and the stresses on its structure.

A little late for that, isn't it? Almost three times the boats original design intended horsepower use, and NOW your concerned??? Sheeeeesch! I know, I know...its the "age" of the boat, right?:confused: