What year did Jesse James 48 Race? [Archive]

MarylandMark

02-15-2009, 11:23 AM

If truely interested you HAVE to get the video!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.historicraceboats.com/dvds.htm

Linder Luhrs - The Partnership that Changed the Game
Ten years of action-packed NNRT video tracing the exploits of two lifelong racing partners, George Linder and OSO's own Rich "T2x" Luhrs, who represented the best of U.S. design and ingenuity while helping to pave the way for America's later dominance in Cat design. Starting with the early days of Linder's iconic Challenger 21 hull, the DVD covers the startling arrival of the Shadow cat on the world racing scene and its role as the first multihull to outperform vees in both rough seas and calm. See racing legend Willie Diaz turn the entire racing world on its ear with the small block powered "El Boss." Follow the years of championships won by "Black Duck," the most successful hull in offshore history. Watch "Luv-it" tear through the modified fleet. Watch The Shadows evolve into the Chris Cats which dominated racing as no other hull had before. See the legendary Jesse James hulls as Linder and Luhrs developed the revolutionary Conquest hulls, marrying wood and fiberglass composite techniques unlike any construction technique that came before. You'll be amazed by the outboard tunnel boat motors that propelled the Conquest, "Rolling Thunder," past the fastest inboards of the time. Finally, watch footage of the 48 foot four-engined Jesse James, built by the Lavin Family as a tribute to Mark, which became the basis for all of today's Lavin Foundation Safety standards.

MarylandMark

02-15-2009, 11:35 AM

JJ was made with non-marine plywood as well. Was only made to race 3-4 races

chewiekw

02-15-2009, 11:56 AM

MarylandMark

02-15-2009, 12:23 PM

You are correct! (sorry- head little fuzzy this am...)

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/classic-offshore/144409-conquest-cats.html

MOBILEMERCMAN

02-15-2009, 01:52 PM

I saw it in Atlantic City. I was surprised to see it had Ford power in it.

chewiekw

02-15-2009, 03:00 PM

do you remember what race in Atlantic City? Was it the worlds? I thought it had Batten engines 4 vales per cylinder....Maybe derived from Ford?

MOBILEMERCMAN

02-15-2009, 03:05 PM

Trump Grand National Sept 21-24 1988

Sean Stinson

02-16-2009, 09:40 AM

I have the DVD, but only shows the boat for a couple of minutes. I am looking for footage/pictures from a couple of races.

Also the boat was made from Tri-axial fiberglass & wood so i know it was made to be race more then a few races....I think you are thinking of the Maxon boat...

Talk to Rich Luhrs (T2x) I am sure he can answer all the questions you may have....I ran into Chris Lavin at the NPBA legends dinner at the Poker Run in NYC and I am sure he would bend your ear as well although I dont have his contact info handy.

T2x

02-16-2009, 10:33 AM

JJ was made with non-marine plywood as well. Was only made to race 3-4 races

Not!!!!

The hull that was made of exterior plywood was the '37 Chris Cat plug which became the Maxon. Both JJ's were made to race...and featured an Akoume marine plywood/BI and triaxial fibreglass composite...making them basically indestructible in big seas. Also both hulls had multiple reverse angles making them impossible to "pop". This made them useless to many other so-called "designer builders"......

T2x

T2x

02-16-2009, 10:36 AM

I saw it in Atlantic City. I was surprised to see it had Ford power in it.

The Popeye's Goetz hull had Ford Power...not "Big JJ"..... "Big JJ" had Batten engines which were completely custom dual overhead cam aluminum block engines made by the creator of the Oldsmobile "Quad 4"........Cyril Batten.

T2x

Knot 4 Me

02-16-2009, 11:07 AM

The Popeye's Goetz hull had Ford Power...not "Big JJ"..... "Big JJ" had Batten engines which were completely custom dual overhead cam aluminum block engines made by the creator of the Oldsmobile "Quad 4"........Cyril Batten.

T2xInteresting. I had a Quad 4 in a 1988 Olds Calais. At 7K miles, the motor locked up while sitting at a stop light. I believe the Batten engines in JJ were about as reliable?

T2x

02-16-2009, 12:17 PM

Interesting. I had a Quad 4 in a 1988 Olds Calais. At 7K miles, the motor locked up while sitting at a stop light. I believe the Batten engines in JJ were about as reliable?

No .....less actually......they wouldn't have lasted 7 miles much less 7000.

T2x

02-16-2009, 12:19 PM

Trump Grand National Sept 21-24 1988

Now I'm confused....I recall it running in the Atlantic City World Championships...held the following year. But My memory is fading.

OneBadInjun

02-16-2009, 01:14 PM

Did Mark Lavin die in a Conquest and why?

MOBILEMERCMAN

02-16-2009, 01:54 PM

Now I'm confused....I recall it running in the Atlantic City World Championships...held the following year. But My memory is fading.

I saw the Jesse James boat and the Goetz Popeyes. I confused the motors. And now maybe the years too. It was twenty years ago. I went to Trumps in '87 and '88. I saw Popeyes TransAtlantic Boat and The Cajun Princess in '87. I believe '88 was the Year the Revlon Boat was there and I think the JJ boat. Not really sure anymore.

Here is a pic from Key West.

18533

I remember the JJ boat at Trumps being different. I could not find one I took of JJ at trumps.

18534

'88 was the year it was rough, C brown was killed and a 41 Apache beached their boat just north of the pier.

Sean Stinson

02-16-2009, 08:58 PM

He died after they stuffed the boat from a basil skull fracture.....To date I only know of one person that has survived a basil skull fracture and that would be Mr. Bobby Saccenti

Sean Stinson

02-16-2009, 09:00 PM

88 was a rough year and 89 was the year of inception of the offshore professional tour or opt

DPT MOTORSPORTS

02-17-2009, 01:11 AM

I think it was 1989 as well. Same year as Don Johnson debuting his cat at Trump Marina and also the unfortunate year that we lost Kevin Brown in the 32' Skater, Skater Express. If I dig through my old scrap books from races I attended throughout the years I have an old race program from that race. This was the year a bunch of the European teams came to Jersey as well for the event. I was there in 88 and 89. Also Bob Kaiser debuted a then new project twin turbo motor from Mercury Racing.

DPT MOTORSPORTS

02-17-2009, 01:16 AM

I also remember going on a party boat with my father two of the days of racing. The first one was canceled do to rough seas and then the day of the tragedy the only boat allowed out to the course other then patrol boats and turn boats was the Trump Princess.

Sean Stinson

02-17-2009, 08:46 AM

McLaren did the motor program at first for the System boat and Merc supplied the 5 drive which didnt hold up to the power of the engines.....It would turn the gears and bearings in the drive to rubber hence the switch to the Arnesons

OneBadInjun

02-17-2009, 10:19 AM

He died after they stuffed the boat from a basil skull fracture.....To date I only know of one person that has survived a basil skull fracture and that would be Mr. Bobby SaccentiThe 48 Conquest was the JJ boat that stuffed?

NNRT

02-17-2009, 10:57 AM

The 48 Conquest was the JJ boat that stuffed?

NO - it was the smaller one - 30 some odd feet long- i forgot the actual length

MOBILEMERCMAN

02-17-2009, 11:18 AM

no - it was the smaller one - 30 some odd feet long- i forgot the actual length

35'

18605

chewiekw

02-17-2009, 02:23 PM

Considering the boat is the same size as a Mystic (not sure about the weight difference)

How do you think the boat would do today with 4 1500 HP Sterlings or twin Turbines?

Ryan Beckley

02-17-2009, 02:40 PM

I would guess that the JJ 48 would weigh TWICE as much as they Mystic.....for what that is worth.

chewiekw

02-17-2009, 03:34 PM

If i am not mistaken the full rigged weight for Jesse James was 16,000Lbs with 4 motors weighing about 1,200lbs each..take that away 11,200lbs

The dry weight (with out motors) of a mystic is 10,000lbs?

Or my numbers could be way off....You hear weight numbers for boats but never now if they are without without motors and rigging...

T2x can you share some numbers on the JJ boat without motors and rigging and with?

Ryan Beckley

02-17-2009, 04:58 PM

I would bet that the Mystic with 2 motors would be faster than the JJ with 4....I was a HUGE JJ fan and would LOVE to see it back on the water but in all honestly someone would have to spend a FORTUNE on it to get it back in the water much less to dream of making it reach 200MPH....

Sean Stinson

02-17-2009, 05:10 PM

And how!!!! I wouldn't even want to guesstimate that bill.....HUGE comes to mind though!

chewiekw

02-17-2009, 05:18 PM

cost aside what if you through two turbines in JJ...

I guess i am trying to compare designs from back then to today...If weight and power are close then it comes down to design well and rigging...

What if you built JJ out of today's materials, or better yet just update the power and run two types of races. Today's inshore and a true offshore race and distance....Then boat design would really come into play...

Sean Stinson

02-17-2009, 10:35 PM

Yes you're correct but you need to compare apples to apples.....I am not saying the designs are not comparable but technology has come along way in the way of materials to construct them

T2x

02-18-2009, 12:04 AM

Big JJ weighed 17000 lbs full of fuel and a bit over 14000 rigged and ready to go. Do I think she would be as fast as a Mystic..... probably not...... but I think 200 is more than possible with turbines.....and in a collision or rough water I know which hull I'd rather be in....:D. Remember she had identical rudder systems to today's boats, better drives, and gear boxes...and BIG props.

You can talk about today's materials...... but the smaller 35 JJ took a back seat to NO ONE in top speed.....and the 32' outboard Conquests were comparable in speed to the early 32 Skaters...and weighed within 10-15%.

I'm not quite sure how Ryan got to be an "expert" on this subject given the fact that I think he was 5 years old when these boats raced...... Younger for the earlier ones :D :D

T2x

MOBILEMERCMAN

02-18-2009, 12:15 AM

I'm not quite sure how Ryan got to be an "expert" on this subject given the fact that I think he was 5 years old when these boats raced...... Younger for the early ones :D :D

T2x

He was in High school in Key West in mid '80's.

Few can match Ryan's knowledge and love of the sport.

Brownie

02-18-2009, 09:36 AM

The original superboat, 4 engine Popeyes aluminum weighed 8,010 pounds no machinery, no paint, but with fuel cells. It got heavier and heavier as it was beefed up.

T2x

02-18-2009, 11:05 AM

He was in High school in Key West in mid '80's.

Few can match Ryan's knowledge and love of the sport.

Interesting....I thought he was younger....seems like he was a small child when he rode on the deck of our 35' JJ in Key West in '86. He seems more than 20 years younger than me today.....

I can relate.

When I was in High School (4000 BC :p) I recall reading (and re-reading) everything I could get my hands on about boat racing in magazines, books, etc (especially stuff from Hank Bowman who I idolized... and whose death I witnessed....My oldest son's middle name is Bowman). I went to every boat show, boat race, boat dealer, and marina just to check out every detail I could find. I was fortunate to start racing as a pre teen, but it never seemed to be enough. My school work had more boat doodles than words or numbers..... and I day dreamed about twin engine outboard cats (almost) as much as about girls....... Come to think of it both have "tunnels" of a sort... :p

T2x

Sean Stinson

02-18-2009, 11:05 AM

You can talk about today's materials...... but the smaller 35 JJ took a back seat to NO ONE in top speed.....and the 32' outboard Conquests were comparable in speed to the early 32 Skaters...and weighed within 10-15%.

I didn't mean anything Rich other than the fact that if you built both boats side by side of the same materials you would have an even platform for comparison, that being said that would be a shootout I would pay money to see!!!!!! Sometimes my fingers don't type everything I am thinking as I am typing it if that makes sense!!!!!

Ryan Beckley

02-18-2009, 11:06 AM

Ryan Beckley

02-18-2009, 11:09 AM

I wasn't in KW in 86' when Mark was killed. I remember crying when my dad called me and told me what happened. I rode on the truck the following year in 1987 because the boat was partially tilted up for the parade.

T2x

02-18-2009, 11:13 AM

The original superboat, 4 engine Popeyes aluminum weighed 8,010 pounds no machinery, no paint, but with fuel cells. It got heavier and heavier as it was beefed up.

That hull topped out at about 125-130 with 4 x725's.......... Now reduce the drives to 2 from 4......update the props dramatically........ and double the HP...

Another example would be the 4 engine Dirty Laundry CUV which went over 160 with 4 x 900's......... add 66% more HP and better props.........and what do you get?

Do the math....those 4 engine behemoths were nothing to sneeze at....and they weren't so heavy that the speed loss would be more than 10-15 mph below today's featherweights IMHO.

Bottom line aside from great styling and improved materials, there has been very little in the way of significant hull improvements since the early 80's.

T2x

fobes

02-18-2009, 11:21 AM

I also tried to get my hands on everything I could find about racing and hi-po hulls. I grew up during the '80's and consider that to be the "glory days" of racing what with all the emerging technology and interesting characters. I remember an excellent article in "Wooden Boats" magazine about the Lavins and the construction of the Conquest cat. I will try and dig it out and get it scanned. I have several videotapes and most recently the excellent "Big Seas" dvd's and still cannot get enough. Back in the day I designed and ran several offshore boats constructed of Legos in my parents pool, none of which won any significant races.:) I also could fill reams of paper with my doodles/designs. Does anyone have any pics from the '80's they could share?
Thanks: Matt

T2x

02-18-2009, 11:22 AM

Sorry, but I don't claim to be an EXPERT on this subject. I was born in 75 actually so I was alittle older than 5. I actually spent a lot of time with the Lavin's when they came to the Keys every year. In 1985 when the won the Modified class worlds I was with Mark, Francine, & Miles in the boat parade. Mark is one of my heros, & I have a picture of the 35' hanging in my livingroom to this day.....

Hey Ryan:

I was teasing you...... I clearly recall how passionate you were...and are.... about the sport..... and as I said...I can relate. What I am reacting to is the assumption that today's boats are somehow a quantum leap ahead of the mid 80's cats...... and that is nonsense. After all even Peter's 24's and 32's were both a product of that same era....and nothing is demonstrably better than those hulls today..... in fact his bottom design and angle of attack are very similar on the newer hulls....albeit with more anti stuff built into the forward entry (Ala Big JJ)......

There is (sadly) nothing really new under the sun in hull development....... even Reggie's preposterous "beak" is now pushing 20 years in age.......as are the steps that he and the Fiore's "invented".

T2x

MarylandMark

02-18-2009, 12:53 PM

Sort of off topic but since this kind of went a little off course about hull designs..

I asked on the Statement thread with no reply- is the front edge of their cat for aesthetics or serve a function?

Ryan Beckley

02-18-2009, 01:03 PM

I was told the Statement packs more air into the tunnel and make the entry of the boat more aerodynamic......

fobes

02-18-2009, 01:09 PM

I was wondering the same thing. I saw it in Miami and it is unlike any other tunnel entry I have seen. Is there any merit to it that has been proven to work or is it an untested theory?

40FlatDeck

02-19-2009, 01:58 PM

I was wondering the same thing. I saw it in Miami and it is unlike any other tunnel entry I have seen. Is there any merit to it that has been proven to work or is it an untested theory?

I would like to hear what T2x thinks about this also......:sifone:

I'll take my 40 Skater over that "new" design any day of the week...:)

Brownie

02-19-2009, 03:35 PM

An interesting side note. With the advent of the 50' cats, it became possible to beat the boat to death, while experiencing an "arm chair" ride. That was partly true of the 38's, but absolutley true of the 50's.

McCaffertee

02-19-2009, 05:28 PM

What is the idea behind the Statement hull design?

Rik

02-19-2009, 09:34 PM

The 50' of today are not measured the same way those 50' that were built in the past were measured. Those boats today would be a 55'!:)

Today, they count from the deck to the tip of the sponson. A 50' Mystic for example is a 44' Bottom with a 40' LWL.

The 48' Cougar probably had a 43-44' LWL and was somewhat heavier but also had less tunnel compression in comparison.

I think the theory was, four smaller engines would live a lot longer than two larger engines. (Say hello to Keith Eickert new V16!) As back in the early 80's, 800 hp was a stretch.

Joe Mach's 4 engine boat would reach 175 ish according to Smitty and Lanier. Fast by any generations expectations.

T2x

02-20-2009, 10:07 AM

Joe Mach's 4 engine boat would reach 175 ish according to Smitty and Lanier. Fast by any generations expectations.

And that boat would dwarf a Mystic in size........ I always loved the lines on that thing....it reminded me of some kind of a wild mid 50's fighter/bomber. It looked like nothing else before or since.

Today everything is buttery smooth....and redundant...except for the MTI's which are simply .......ugly.....and I know ugly.....after all we created the Shadow "dumpster" cat....:p

T2x

T2x

02-20-2009, 10:19 AM

I would like to hear what T2x thinks about this also......:sifone:

I'll take my 40 Skater over that "new" design any day of the week...:)

Is that the cat with the "filligree" on the inside of the pickle forks..... increasing the mold cost for no apparent reason?

My first impression takes me back to my favorite Renato Molinari story.

Molinari OWNED outboard tunnel boat design in the late 60's and early 70's. In '71 or so he debuted (see 1st picture below with Bobby Hering at the wheel) a beautiful pickle forked variant of his tried and true full tunnel hull. After winning it's debut races, he put small vertical fins on the forward pickle forks. Within weeks most other racers had similar fins on their (now pickle forked) boats. At that point Renato put small fins on the after planes abreast of the engines....and won....... You guessed it, the others quickly followed suit. Renato then put horizontal "winglets" on the fins and upright portions of the canopies....and won...... Others followed quickly (see Miles Hull below on the right)....

Finally, at seasons end, Renato appeared with a hull in the original form sans all the fins and winglets...and won again. When asked about why he had discarded all of the added "aero-technical" hardware...... He replied "That Sh*t never did anything anyway."

...But it sure kept the others from doing actual testing and development.

The Statement makes the same kind of "statement" to me.

T2x

Rik

02-20-2009, 09:44 PM

And that boat would dwarf a Mystic in size........ I always loved the lines on that thing....it reminded me of some kind of a wild mid 50's fighter/bomber. It looked like nothing else before or since.

Today everything is buttery smooth....and redundant...except for the MTI's which are simply .......ugly.....and I know ugly.....after all we created the Shadow "dumpster" cat....:p

T2x

Maybe all those rivets disrupted the laminer flow (like vortex generators) of the air over it so it would not blow over:rofl:

Maybe CUV knew something.

No reference to a Mystic meant.

MarylandMark

02-22-2009, 05:54 PM

I just realized (again) how much I love reading your post T2x!

Steve 1

02-22-2009, 07:45 PM

I used a tunnel like that on my 40' Cheetahcats in 93!

40FlatDeck

02-23-2009, 04:48 PM

Is that the cat with the "filligree" on the inside of the pickle forks..... increasing the mold cost for no apparent reason?

My first impression takes me back to my favorite Renato Molinari story.

Molinari OWNED outboard tunnel boat design in the late 60's and early 70's. In '71 or so he debuted (see 1st picture below) a beautiful pickle forked variant of his tried and true full tunnel hull. After winning it's debut races, he put small vertical fins on the forward pickle forks. Within weeks most other racers had similar fins on their (now pickle forked) boats. At that point Renato put small fins on the after planes abreast of the engines....and won....... You guessed it, the others quickly followed suit. Renato then put horizontal "winglets" on the fins and upright portions of the canopies....and won...... Others followed quickly (see Miles Hull below on the right)....

Finally, at seasons end, Renato appeared with a hull in the original form sans all the fins and winglets...and won again. When asked about why he had discarded all of the added "aero-technical" hardware...... He replied "That Sh*t never did anything anyway."

...But it sure kept the others from doing actual testing and development.

The Statement makes the same kind of "statement" to me.

T2x

:rofl:

Didn't Buzzi basically do the same thing with his rear "wing"??

T2x

02-23-2009, 04:53 PM

:rofl:

Didn't Buzzi basically do the same thing with his rear "wing"??

Yes, but he laughed all the way to the bank with his idea. It seemed that all the Euro-trash would buy (lease) anything he offered, and the more gimmicks the better. On the other hand he has a great sense of humor and probably got some good chuckles out of his "flights of fancy".

chewiekw

03-01-2009, 06:28 PM

I think it was the Trump worlds in 89...

Dude! Sweet!

03-02-2009, 02:37 AM

Where'd the drives, rudders, etc. all end up? Seems like single-purpose stuff, so I'm guessing none of it's hanging off the back of an American Offshore cat in the Monongahela River...

shifter

03-03-2009, 02:32 AM

The whole boat (Big JJ) minus engines was at Archer Marine for a long time. In 93/94??? It was sold minus motors and is sitting in the AZ desert as far as I know.

pat W

Sean Stinson

03-03-2009, 09:25 AM

Do tell Pat someone is looking for it earlier in this thread

T2x

03-03-2009, 07:17 PM

I think it was the Trump worlds in 89...

Thank you...That is the best picture of it running I have seen.

I love the internet.

T2x

T2x

03-03-2009, 07:20 PM

Where'd the drives, rudders, etc. all end up? Seems like single-purpose stuff, so I'm guessing none of it's hanging off the back of an American Offshore cat in the Monongahela River...

I have heard various stories.....including:

They were sent to Japan for "analysis"....

They were stolen

They were sold for scrap.

I have no idea, other than that Chris Lavin has a couple of the props.

T2x

Dude! Sweet!

03-03-2009, 09:39 PM

That's a shame... that whole "sold for scrap thing" is a bummer. I wonder how long before I end up drinking Coors Light out of the big Gentry boat over in MDR...

Ryan Beckley

03-03-2009, 09:57 PM

Who made the props for them back then?

T2x

03-04-2009, 01:11 PM

Who made the props for them back then?

Kiekhaefer...........

shifter

03-10-2009, 11:36 AM

I talked to Craig last nite and the last he knew of the boat was it was moved to the desert for storage. The trailer had the spares in it. It was owned by some Japanese people and he did not remember their names. They wanted to put 4 gentry motors in it but never came up with the money.

The original JJ is down under with f-16 on it with the original paint if someone is interested.

pat W