750 Reliable HP

[SHOCKWAVE71]

Hi, everyone.

As a lot of people know I have been bringing Rio Roses to some poker run events. Trouble is I still have the 750 Supercats in her with the 12.5 compression, 1150 Demons that does not like to run for 45 minutes wot.Race fuel too.
Anthony Smith's been doing the motors and suggested Whipples and making the engine low compression and 540. Economy being as bad as it is, I was looking for alternatives to the Whipples (about $16K). How about Hilborn or Kinsler mechanical injection? I know it's old school but is priced reasonable.Do they make power? I want to keep it at 750 at least to make the boat run around 110 on pump gas. Any other thoughts? I really want to come out this year, but the business is getting crushed by what is happening out there.
Thanks,Rich

[KENNYO]

750 hp is not going to be cheap what ever you choose to do. Call Eddie Young. I know quite a few people that run his EFI engines. They are stout and very dependable.


You're welcome Ed!

[Geronimo36]

On The Chip ran their supercats WOT @ 7k rpm all the time and never broke anything in two years and Curtis is relentless on the sticks. Call up JCPERF!!

[Chris]

You're not going to get 750 out of that CID on pump gas without some sort of intercooled supercharging. Nor will you on a bump to 540. I picked up a pair of intercooled 8-71's last year for $6 grand and they're like new. There's 750+ on 540s with pump gas. Look around- you should be able to find something.

[BenPerfected]

Rich,
750+ HP NA on pump gas should be a relatively easy conversion using much of your current combination. After 6+ engine builders and 15 yrs I have it pretty well figured out. No matter what you do, you are likely looking at $15-20K a side to do it right...race gas might be the low cost choice unless your high compression engines need work. Call me if you want to discuss.
Sprague
214 632 0798

[Bertram38]

A supercharger gives such a huge variable in Hp upon differant fuels. Add timeing and race gas, smaller pulley and you just gained 150 HP. Who Friken Hoo.
B38

[Mrhorsepower1]

I have multiple pump gas engines out there @ 750-800 HP. Please feel free to contact me. I can lead you in the right direction the first time with a proven package. These engines are single 4 barrel. Thanks!

Dean Gellner
(216) 398-8500 shop

[RumRunner]

I'd talk to Dean or another reputable builder... Going to Injection isn't going to pick up any HP over a good carburetor.

[Mrhorsepower1]

I'd talk to Dean or another reputable builder... Going to Injection isn't going to pick up any HP over a good carburetor.

We have the technology.:biggrinjester:

[RumRunner]

Hey Deano nows the time to put that 500" deal together the fields will be light...

[SHOCKWAVE71]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and pm's. I've got a lot of thinking to do.

Rich

[Mrhorsepower1]

I know I am working on it, but Money is tight every where!!!

[RumRunner]

I hear that... Luckily most of my guys still have some sponsorship to keep going.

[skaterdave]

rich, my names dave k. i met you at smitty's shop afew days before the pt pleasent race. anthiny introduced us and you were thinking of leaving the boat at my place inbetween sarasota and kw.

anyway about the motor. i would talk it over with anthony agian and stay with NA motors. i'm making 750 hp with 8 to 1 comp and can run all day on 87. the supercat motors should be a 4.6 bore with a short stroke crank (3.8). i would dump the money back into the motors. new cranks at 4.25 stroke should give you 565 cubic inches. run a flat top piston and buy a new set of brodix cnc heads. and just switch the valve train over, replacing anything thats needs it. even if you add the whipples you would have to change all these components anyway. we just got done dyno-ing my motors and with a few changes to what i already had i'm well over 800 hp with over 750 ft/lb of torque. and all that on 93 pump gas!!

[glassdave]

well over 800 huh? :eek: :D . . . . gonna hafta re think our program :leaving:

[jeff1000man]

A lot of the performance shops have been selling brand new rotating assemblies for under 2K a set, Good heads are under 3K a side and new cams are under $400 a side. Using the blocks you have and all your accesories, you will be there. No reason you can't get there with 565CI, a good set of heads and cams, and the carbs and the rest of the stuff you all ready have.

[dwtinc]

Is everyone just bolting on the heads anymore or are they working on the ports.

[dwtinc]

Don't mean to sound stupid but what is a good set of head for his application for mine is about the same. I have merlin heads that have profesional extensive work on them but what would be better.

[jeff1000man]

Don't mean to sound stupid but what is a good set of head for his application for mine is about the same. I have merlin heads that have profesional extensive work on them but what would be better.

The CNC process from the maunufacturer or some of the bigger shops, IMO is taking the majic out of hand polishing and porting. The other benefit is that it is repeatable. Doing it the old fashioned way is still a work of art and can not be replaced, but at least with the CNC process, it is repeatable. Not all port work is created equal, even when it is done by the same guy.

[dwtinc]

The CNC process from the maunufacturer or some of the bigger shops, IMO is taking the majic out of hand polishing and porting. The other benefit is that it is repeatable. Doing it the old fashioned way is still a work of art and can not be replaced, but at least with the CNC process, it is repeatable. Not all port work is created equal, even when it is done by the same guy.

So what is the best heads in your opinion without going to another design? Or do you think it's worth the added money for the change.

[jeff1000man]

So what is the best heads in your opinion without going to another design? Or do you think it's worth the added money for the change.

It's up to you. I use out of the box Merlins and Darts all the time with minor upgrades. With modern technology, I wouldn't spend a lot of money on iron darts or merlins, when you can get nice AFR's, or similar with upgraded springs, valves, etc, for between 2500 and 3000 bucks and bolt them straight on. I know Dean is a distributor for them. He posted ealier. He might be able to get you a deal on them also. I am not a dealer. I am just an end user and small builder.

[dwtinc]

Thanks for the info. I have considered the change but I know it's not worth the money. I wouldn't mind dumping the weight and having better technology while mine are worth something to sell.

[jeff1000man]

Thanks for the info. I have considered the change but I know it's not worth the money. I wouldn't mind dumping the weight and having better technology while mine are worth something to sell.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[dwtinc]

It's winter and the mind wonders

[skaterdave]

brodix makes a bunch of different stuff. and are cnc'ed right out of the box. for the money and the technology today you really cant do much better that the standard cnc heads. the only time you see major head work or using different style heads (pontiac, hemi) is in the drag car stuff. i think spending more money on hand porting, unless for an all-out race boat, you would be wasting money. and even then the porting work should be minimal if they are already cnc.

[skaterdave]

well over 800 huh? :eek: :D . . . . gonna hafta re think our program :leaving:


dave i miss spoke. did i say 800, i meant 600. plus you guys are making 900 plus??? pump gas baby!!!!!!!!!!!! thinking about buying a tanker before the price goes back up.

[dwtinc]

brodix makes a bunch of different stuff. and are cnc'ed right out of the box. for the money and the technology today you really do much better that the standard cnc heads. the only time you see major head work or using different style heads (pontiac, hemi) is in the drag car stuff. i think spending more money on hand porting, unless for an all-out race boat, you would be wasting money. and even then the porting work should be minimal if they are already cnc.

I know the pulling truck guys are running Pontiac heads and are making unbelievable torqe. I am sure I would be better off finding a different hull but you know how it is.

[skaterdave]

I know the pulling truck guys are running Pontiac heads and are making unbelievable torqe. I am sure I would be better off finding a different hull but you know how it is.

drag motors are probably pretty similar. did you ever see the push rod configuration and if so you'll see why you don't see the on an endurance type motor

[Rookie]

The CNC process from the maunufacturer or some of the bigger shops, IMO is taking the majic out of hand polishing and porting. The other benefit is that it is repeatable. Doing it the old fashioned way is still a work of art and can not be replaced, but at least with the CNC process, it is repeatable. Not all port work is created equal, even when it is done by the same guy.

Remember a good hand porter can manipulate the port to flow the most at certain lifts of the cam without hogging out all the material. This will keep you velocities up. I would rather have heads that flowed 380cfm at 316cc than heads that flow 380cfm @ 340cc If your CNC heads flow great #'s at 0.700" lift and your only running 0.575" lift its a little misleading. Aftermarket heads are great HP bolt-ons but a good porter can get more out of them.

I know of a 565 that we dynoed at 783HP NA, solid lifters on a hydraulic roller cam, hand ported Pro1's and fuel injected. its all in the combination.

[dwtinc]

drag motors are probably pretty similar. did you ever see the push rod configuration and if so you'll see why you don't see the on an endurance type motor

Yeah makes sense.

[jeff1000man]

Remember a good hand porter can manipulate the port to flow the most at certain lifts of the cam without hogging out all the material. This will keep you velocities up. I would rather have heads that flowed 380cfm at 316cc than heads that flow 380cfm @ 340cc If your CNC heads flow great #'s at 0.700" lift and your only running 0.575" lift its a little misleading. Aftermarket heads are great HP bolt-ons but a good porter can get more out of them.

I know of a 565 that we dynoed at 783HP NA, solid lifters on a hydraulic roller cam, hand ported Pro1's and fuel injected. its all in the combination.

I agree with what you on this 100%. My point was bang for the buck and repeatability. Not everyone can afford to spend 3k on the port work after they have bought the heads, when the CNC machine can get pretty good numbers.

I was taught that the cnc programs were patterned off heads that were professionaly ported and the machine uses the best average numebrs for what you are trying to accomplish.

[Rookie]

I agree with what you on this 100%. My point was bang for the buck and repeatability. Not everyone can afford to spend 3k on the port work after they have bought the heads, when the CNC machine can get pretty good numbers.

I was taught that the cnc programs were patterned off heads that were professionaly ported and the machine uses the best average numebrs for what you are trying to accomplish.

We are on the same page, but if you look at the Brodix BB2 for example: $2154 for 2 standard assembled heads, or the BB2 CNC's for $3540 that is the difference of $1386. You could buy the non CNC'd and get them hand ported for under $1500 (I think a full port is roughly $1200, i'll check later) and they will match the cam they were ported for and make better power for you application. The diference of $114

http://www.jegs.com/p/Brodix/750164/10002/-1

sorry to get this thread side tracked.

[dwtinc]

We are on the same page, but if you look at the Brodix BB2 for example: $2154 for 2 standard assembled heads, or the BB2 CNC's for $3540 that is the difference of $1386. You could buy the non CNC'd and get them hand ported for under $1500 (I think a full port is roughly $1200, i'll check later) and they will match the cam they were ported for and make better power for you application. The diference of $114

sorry to get this thread side tracked.

How much difference do you think? Where do you decide to keep your torque up and not worry as much with H.p. Since it's a marine application I worry alot oabout the torque side.

[jeff1000man]

We are on the same page, but if you look at the Brodix BB2 for example: $2154 for 2 standard assembled heads, or the BB2 CNC's for $3540 that is the difference of $1386. You could buy the non CNC'd and get them hand ported for under $1500 (I think a full port is roughly $1200, i'll check later) and they will match the cam they were ported for and make better power for you application. The diference of $114

sorry to get this thread side tracked.

It just depends on the talent you have to work with. I don't have that luxury around here. THe computers are way more talented than the guys I have run into.

I can't use someone far away since the shipping would eat me up, but I can get a longer crank, or a little different cam grind or a better carb, and make up the difference. There are a lot of ways to make power. Of course when you have access to all the factors, then it REALLY gets fun.

[Rookie]

How much difference do you think? Where do you decide to keep your torque up and not worry as much with H.p. Since it's a marine application I worry alot oabout the torque side.

I don't know the direct answer to that question, but sticking the right cam along with the right heads can be a considerable difference. That's why these good engine builders make great power with off the shelf heads CNC'd or not, they know which cams work with that application. but if you get custom porting you can get even more out of them and if your dropping over $3000 on CNC'd heads + or - $150 for maybe 60HP it might be worth it.

If you want I can give you the # of IMO one of the best MARINE head porter there is. He will tell you the difference.

[Rookie]

It just depends on the talent you have to work with. I don't have that luxury around here. THe computers are way more talented than the guys I have run into.

I can't use someone far away since the shipping would eat me up, but I can get a longer crank, or a little different cam grind or a better carb, and make up the difference. There are a lot of ways to make power. Of course when you have access to all the factors, then it REALLY gets fun.

Where are you located??

[dwtinc]

I don't know the direct answer to that question, but sticking the right cam along with the right heads can be a considerable difference. That's why these good engine builders make great power with off the shelf heads CNC'd or not, they know which cams work with that application. but if you get custom porting you can get even more out of them and if your dropping $3000 on heads + or - $150 for maybe 60HP it might be worth it.

If you want I can give you the # of IMO one of the best MARINE head porter there is. He will tell you the difference.

PM his number and when I get serious I will contact him. I don't want to bother him till I'm ready. Where is he located?

[jeff1000man]

Where are you located??

Houston

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I know the pulling truck guys are running Pontiac heads and are making unbelievable torqe. I am sure I would be better off finding a different hull but you know how it is.

Mercury used Pontiac heads on their race motors 20 years ago.

[jeff1000man]

Mercury used Pontiac heads on their race motors 20 years ago.

Good for the tractor pulls where you are limited max displacement to production +.060

[Geronimo36]

Mercury used Pontiac heads on their race motors 20 years ago.

Sure did! :drool5:

[skaterdave]

We are on the same page, but if you look at the Brodix BB2 for example: $2154 for 2 standard assembled heads, or the BB2 CNC's for $3540 that is the difference of $1386. You could buy the non CNC'd and get them hand ported for under $1500 (I think a full port is roughly $1200, i'll check later) and they will match the cam they were ported for and make better power for you application. The diference of $114

http://www.jegs.com/p/Brodix/750164/10002/-1

sorry to get this thread side tracked.

don't forget that i think the cnc 's have upgraded components, springs, reatiners, ect.

i think you guys are wasting time talking about making hp with port work. without putting the motors on a dyno and running them before and after, you'll never know. there are far way easier things to do that will make power, bigger cam and raise comp would the easy way out.