question about stainless

[glassdave]

Hey i got a quick question about stainless hardware. Once in a while when removing stainess nuts and bolts i've had threads lock up and gal making it impossible to continue without cutting. What causes it? How is this avoidable, does antisieze work? What is the best course of action when you feel a fastener tightening up? Just wondering if anyone has any tricks.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Anti seize works great. I have used wax too. Problem with anti seize is may leave trails of black in time that continually needs to be cleaned off. The fastener supplier says its galling. I have heard lift installers that use a lot of 1/2 bolts soak bolts in liquid wax than strain and dump into work buckets so they don't have to treat them one at a time on the job.


Once you feel it tighten the damage is done. If its 1/2 stuff get the breaker bars.

[Sean H]

http://www.estainlesssteel.com/gallingofstainless.html

[Chris]

Most of the stainless hardware you deal with on boats is 18-8 which is virtually identical to 304. It has very little carbon in it and it's soft. Stainless is also prone to galling- it's just a charachteristic of stainless- it's gummy. hard to machine too.

You'll get better results with a copper-based anti-seize. But remember, reduce your tightening torque by 20% to compensate any time you use anti-seize. And for relative comparison, use torque values equivalent to Gr. 2 steel bolts.

As far as once you feel them beginning to gall, back down just slightly, warm the nut, hit it with a good penetrating oil and let them sit a while. Heat the nut again and attempt removal. Regardless of how the threads look, you should replace the fastener. All it takes is minor surface irregularities for them to gall.

[cigdaze]

Molybdenum Disulphide also works very well and is an excellent anti-corrosive. It's what I prefer using in such applications. It's best applied as a deposition coating, but the spray-on variety works great, too.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

After reading every ones thoughts I can be more specific. Different situations will dictate best action.

Fasteners in the engine compartment I have found wax works best. It doesn't streak black over time. Anti seize is OK too. If it binds I think it is easier to just break off and proceed.

On steering pivots and bolts I found Special lube 101 works best. The white moly works well too. If these large fastener bind Chris's method of heat and penetrating lube works best. Because they are too large to break and may be expensive and not readily available.

Stainless fasteners subject to submersion should not use anti seize because it contains some form of copper. Copper in water attracts electrolysis and will corrode over time. Stainless already is active in water adding copper makes it worse.

[Clustergear]

just a comet don't use impact wrench on stainless hardware it will gal for sure. Also when removing stainless bolts try not to make to much friction as the heat speeds galing just my 2 cents

[Chris]

Good point on salt- use anti-seize with nickel base.

[glassdave]

good stuff guys, I also know that keeping threads clean and burr free is paramount along with not using impacts or drivers when possible. I am going to try the wax trick that sounds like a good one.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Just designate some tub of paste wax for rigging and scoop with threads. Clean and easy.

[glassdave]

Wonder if one of my high temp mold waxes would be good. Their alot like the old Turtle Wax but thicker and build heavier, pain in the azz to remove. Maybe a hard parifin wax would be good or even beeswax? A friend of mine (Jet on here) Uses the parafin to help keep burring bits from loading up when working with alluminum, works good. Also bees wax on the tip of a stainless screw will help it run in fiberglass better and keep it from snaping. We were talking about the galling problem and he brought up a good point, fiberglass dust on a stainless thread is a sure fire way of getting it to gall as well. Something to keep in mind while rigging new boats when alot of new holes will be drilled.

[26 Spyder]

It has already been stated and I will agree, to prevent galling use some sort of anti seize (I use moly or Permatex). DO NOT use air tools or power tools if it is a nut or bolt. I use a screw gun on wood style screws. Most of the #10 or 1/4 bolts are easy to break once it has galled, just hope the bolt is not permanently attached to your hardware.:(
From experience I use lots of anti seize on motor plate bolts! When you have 16 to 20+ 1/2 inch mount bolts per engine and you are standing on your head to get them off you don't want one of those to gall! You can't break them and access to cutting them off is minimal in any.:ack2:
Just my experience...:)

[BradH]

Tef-Gel http://www.tef-gel.com/index.html

Prevents galling and corrosion from dissimilar metals, like stainless bolt through aluminum plate. Good stuff, used on EVERY stainless fastener, unless 5200 is needed as sealant.

"It only costs a little more to go first class"

[BenPerfected]

Dave,
Mercury sells a specialty grease for stainless fittings (high compression or something) that the guys at Lake X showed me. It is a German made product w/ Merc label that comes in a small plastic tube (4-6 oz?). This has ended all SS galling issues and we use it on every bolt/ny-loc nut connection in the boat. I can get you the part # in next trip to the shop unless someone else can help.

[glassdave]

Thanks Sprague, yes i would like the part number for sure. Call me next time you are in town.

[Steve 1]

Wonder if one of my high temp mold waxes would be good. Their alot like the old Turtle Wax but thicker and build heavier, pain in the azz to remove. Maybe a hard parifin wax would be good or even beeswax? A friend of mine (Jet on here) Uses the parafin to help keep burring bits from loading up when working with alluminum, works good. Also bees wax on the tip of a stainless screw will help it run in fiberglass better and keep it from snaping. We were talking about the galling problem and he brought up a good point, fiberglass dust on a stainless thread is a sure fire way of getting it to gall as well. Something to keep in mind while rigging new boats when alot of new holes will be drilled.

Mold wax is my buddy I use a 88 on my table saw, bandsaw tables the bottoms of my power tools (plane .saw etc) saw blades.Fixtures where I push a zillion pieces of material through them.

[glassdave]

Part-all #2 for me :D

[Coolerman]

So what's everybodys worst story of having stainless gall and seize up? Theres a guy here in MN with a 42 fountain, and he hadn't found out about anti-seize or what galling is. He's a smart guy, rigged his entire boat and built his own motors, but everyone has their learning curves. Anyways, he had put on his #6 transom assys with an air impact and no anti-seize... Let's just say he had some problems when he went to take his transom assys off to repaint the transom...

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

So what's everybodys worst story of having stainless gall and seize up? Theres a guy here in MN with a 42 fountain, and he hadn't found out about anti-seize or what galling is. He's a smart guy, rigged his entire boat and built his own motors, but everyone has their learning curves. Anyways, he had put on his #6 transom assys with an air impact and no anti-seize... Let's just say he had some problems when he went to take his transom assys off to repaint the transom...

Shame he didn't look at installation manual.

Installing Inner Transom Plate Assembly Step number 2

Apply never seize on to thru hull studs

There is a load of good info in the 37 pages.

[Coolerman]

Shame he didn't look at installation manual.

Installing Inner Transom Plate Assembly Step number 2

Apply never seize on to thru hull studs

There is a load of good info in the 37 pages.

haha, he used anti-seize putting it back together tho :sifone:

[Audiofn]

I think I use a stuff called swage gell. It works better then anything I have ever used. If I do not have that then I use good old white lithium. Got to be carefull what anti seize you use or you can make it worse.

[Geronimo36]

I think the galing has a lot to do with how tight people make it... Lots of people overtighten everything; for instance, a transom assembly... If you gal those threads it was overtightened because they don't want them very tight to begin with. Stainless is soft so don't tighten bolts reallly quickly because it'll heat up and make everything worse.

If they do tighten up I work it back and forth slowly, not letting it get very hot...then have some pb blast handy to lube it up and keep it cool. If it's a small bolt I'll just torque it to break it and replace it...too much labor time involved in trying to mess with it when you're billing someone by the hour and the customer does't wanna hear/pay for your difficulties. ;)

[old377guy]

If memory serves, the real issue with most stainless alloys is that they stratify under heat/stress. When force is applied in the opposite direction as in removing an improperly tightened bolt, a thin boundary(?) layer peels back and microscopically rolls back on itself;thus the galling. - Jeff

[scarrab30]

Glasdave, The reason for them galing, is that stainless nuts when heated contract inward towards the threads. Bee's wax works very well. Stainless works the opposite of steel. steel will expand on the threads if it's heated. Brian

[nthdegree]

Glasdave, The reason for them galing, is that stainless nuts when heated contract inward towards the threads. Bee's wax works very well. Stainless works the opposite of steel. steel will expand on the threads if it's heated. Brian

not true....

[Tony]

So what's everybodys worst story of having stainless gall and seize up? Theres a guy here in MN with a 42 fountain, and he hadn't found out about anti-seize or what galling is. He's a smart guy, rigged his entire boat and built his own motors, but everyone has their learning curves. Anyways, he had put on his #6 transom assys with an air impact and no anti-seize... Let's just say he had some problems when he went to take his transom assys off to repaint the transom...

This past summer when mounting an outboard to my Whaler, half inch nylok nuts froze solid to the bolts as soon as they engaged the nylon insert, I realized it was a problem after I snapped off the 3rd. bolt with a breaker bar. 99% of my stainless hardware experience has been with the stuff thats on my old Cig. Ive uninstalled and reinstalled the same SS nuts and bolts dozzens of times with no problems. Made in China, gotta love it.

[US1Fountain]

I always screw SS hardware in by hand. Heat is SS's enemy in bolted connections. If I feel the nut or bolt starting to tighten up from galling, I'll stop and slowly work it back/forth and try to spray lube in for lubrication and to cool the threads. Unfortunately, once it starts to seize, it only goes downhill.

[planetwarmer]

Just use Ti instead.:sifone:

[Excalibur Racing]

When pipefitters thread stainless pipe and nipples we use soap. Not oil.

[C_Spray]

First off, make sure you get 316 (or 316L) stainless when you can. 18-8 and 304 are not good in a marine environment.

Tef-Gel is the hot stuff. It's especially important if the stainless is in contact with aluminum. In the presence of salt water, that interface makes a really good battery. I had to hack apart (and scrap) a number of fairly expensive parts when I came across this results of this little phenomenon a few years ago.

To original post: Once it starts to gall, consider both parts scrap.

[Sean H]

Tef-gel everything. period.

[2112]

Shame he didn't look at installation manual.

Installing Inner Transom Plate Assembly Step number 2

Apply never seize on to thru hull studs

There is a load of good info in the 37 pages.


Is "never seize" a Merc product?

.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Is "never seize" a Merc product?

.

No . You should be able to find easily at a parts supply house.

http://www.neverseezproducts.com/antiseize.htm Do not use the type with copper in the water. The nickle is the one to use in water. It is listed last on the list. Copper attracts corrosion in water.

I just noticed a mariners choice I hadn't tried yet.

[2112]

No . You should be able to find easily at a parts supply house.

http://www.neverseezproducts.com/antiseize.htm Do not use the type with copper in the water. The nickle is the one to use in water. It is listed last on the list. Copper attracts corrosion in water.

I just noticed a mariners choice I hadn't tried yet.

Ordered! Thanks Jim. :USA:

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[2112]

Next question;

It seems Merc (or Cig?) did not put antisieze on these little 1/4" bolts that hold the hinge pin retainer ring on the side of the gimbal ring. I already tried heat, PB and slow turning with a wrench only to have them snap off like twigs.

Going to replace the entire ring, how the he11 do I get the remaining bolts out with breaking them?? Impact wrench? :confused:

Spotting on paint is salt-away BTW :leaving:
.

[glassdave]

Going to replace the entire ring, how the he11 do I get the remaining bolts out with breaking them?? Impact wrench? :confused:




a lot of times its easier to clock that retainer 45 degrees and re drill and tap new holes. Then, of course, you can apply the stuff Merc failed to.

[Birdog]

I like the wax idea...Everytime i use anti-sieze i end up covered in it..
I might as well just roll around in it first..:):sifone:

[2112]

a lot of times its easier to clock that retainer 45 degrees and re drill and tap new holes. Then, of course, you can apply the stuff Merc failed to.

That has been suggested. On my older HP gimbals they had 2 screw and cloking it 90 degrees was the obvious answer.

With clocking it 45 degrees, I am concerned that I will have weakened the aluminum with 8 holes in a high stress area.

If I can get the thing off w/o destroying it, Team Tsunami suggested using EDM to get the broken bolts out.

Yes, I will be using the lube Jim posted. I haven't touched the other drive, I am sure they are seized as well. :(

.

[Team Tsunami]

2112,

Listen to my father, he knows what he's talking about. We've been down this road too. Those stupid 2 or 4 screws always break!!

[Prosno]

what works for me is a trick an old mechanic showed me on the exhaust studs of fords 5.4 motor.
Anyone whos ever changed a manifold will tell you how these studs snap.
Heat the nut or bolt going into the part, dont make it glow! Just warm it up and then touch some wax to it, the wax seeps into the threads like solder in a pipe joint and walla it usually comes right out.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

On the little screws. I would use map gas to heat it and PB Blaster penetrating oil. Heat it, spray it, attempt to turn, repeat. It may take an hour test of patience. If it is still being stubborn I will use the hammer type impact. Again patience. The screws are small enough to break by hand. If you can get it to move at all you should be able to remove it with heat and PB.

BTW I would use red loctite on the screws when assembling.

[2112]

2112,

Listen to my father, he knows what he's talking about. We've been down this road too. Those stupid 2 or 4 screws always break!!

I know he does, I just need to get the dang things apart! :(

.

[2112]

BTW I would use red loctite on the screws when assembling.


Instead of the anit-seize?

.

[2112]

what works for me is a trick an old mechanic showed me on the exhaust studs of fords 5.4 motor.
Anyone whos ever changed a manifold will tell you how these studs snap.
Heat the nut or bolt going into the part, dont make it glow! Just warm it up and then touch some wax to it, the wax seeps into the threads like solder in a pipe joint and walla it usually comes right out.

I assume it is corrosion that is locking them together, wont that prevent the wicking action of the wax?

.

[gcarter]

I've had pretty good success w/blue LocTite. Particularly w/small screws. So the LocTite is doing double duty by coating the threads and not, in most cases, allowing galing, and it keeps vibration from loosening the fasteers.
Doesn't run either and seems to be water resistant.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Instead of the anit-seize?

.

I prefer loctite for stainless in aluminum. Anti seize on stainless to stainless.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I assume it is corrosion that is locking them together, wont that prevent the wicking action of the wax?

.

The techniques are different in aluminum. The salt and corrosion accumulates in the threads. The salt crystallizes and expands locking it together. When heating patience is needed because the aluminum dissipates the heat through the entire piece. So it takes some time to got the area of focus hot. Some times a few heat cycles are needed. It seems the PB blaster gets drawn in as it cools. Once the screw head is damaged your done.

[2112]

The techniques are different in aluminum. The salt and corrosion accumulates in the threads. The salt crystallizes and expands locking it together. When heating patience is needed because the aluminum dissipates the heat through the entire piece. So it takes some time to got the area of focus hot. Some times a few heat cycles are needed. It seems the PB blaster gets drawn in as it cools. Once the screw head is damaged your done.

Would you still use an impact wrench after this?

.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

The hammer type. I like them for the little screws. I look for the screw to move. Once it does move I know I can get it. I then move it back and spray again. If the screw moves I know the PB is getting in to do its magic.

It is all finesse with those dam little screws in the ring. And of course patience.

[2112]

By Hammer type, do you mean like my Milwaukee Cordless drill with the hammer mode turned on? I also have a pneumatic impact wrech.

.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

No, I mean the hand tool that you hit with a hammer. Old, old school.

[2112]

no, i mean the hand tool that you hit with a hammer. Old, old school.

:):) :usa:

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