Thinking about a shotgun

[Buoy]

I've been thinking that in the next few months I may want to get a shotgun.
But, I know NOTHING about them.
This would just be for a home protection thing.
I have a limited knowledge of handguns, and currently have a 9mm Ruger.
But I know many of you in the past have suggested that a shotgun is a better way to go - just the sound of racking it will usually scare off anyone that hears it.
Also thinking that IF I'm going to be moving to the desert, I want a bit of protection, also thinking of Coyotes, or Javelinas (didn't know such a critter existed until I was doing some research this morning), and want to be able to protect my dogs.

Suggestions?? And what type of budget should I have for this?

[Dr Speed]

Benelli M2 or M4 Tactical

http://www.benelliusa.com/firearms/specialpurpose.tpl

http://www.benelliusa.com/firearms/m4.tpl

[ImaPoser]

Remington 870 express.

[bootdaddy]

for protection, I like anything with a pump-action, otherwise known as the "get-out" gun...they hear the pump and they get out!

[glassdave]

Remington 870 express.

just picked up an 870 Magnum. My first gun, got it for home protection.

[Chris]

Remington 870 with the 18" smoothbore barrel and iron sights. You don't need lasers or magazine extensions and magnum loads are a waste of time. Buy ordinary 00 buckshot for home defense.

The reason this shotgun is ideal-

Pump action- scary noise and absolute reliability

Buckshot- pistol ammo can over-penetrate. A 9mm will go thru your drywall and vinyl siding and kill your neighbor.

9 pellets means your aim is less-critical. If you do have to use it, your skill level (especially under pressure) matters less.

A good tactical light mounted to the weapon is a definite asset. It's not unusual for someone's drunken teenager to be mistaken for an intruder.

You should be able to find a nice used one for $300.

[Ratickle]

I use the Winchester 1300 defender 12 guage. The extension holds plenty of shells in case of a mob break-in:).

The pump action is a distinct noise that all officers recommend.

I load with short base on the first two shells in 2 3/4" in case the wife needs to use it. Then two reg 2 3/4, balance then 3" mags. Not sure why, just makes me feel better knowing she won't have a major issue with the kick in a tense situation and I can blow through the shells and do major messing with the mags. From practice, the low base 2 3/4" kick less than the regular load in the 20 guage defender.

[klaw]

this is what I have its the Marine Magnum Remington 870

A highly durable 12-gauge utility gun that resists corrosion on land or water. Electroless nickel plating covers all metal, including the inside of the barrel and receiver. The synthetic stock has generous checkering for positive control. Comes with 18" Cylinder barrel with single-bead front sight, six-round magazine, padded Cordura® and sling swivel studs.

[Wardey]

Remington 870 Express 12 or the Mossberg 500 Persuader. I own them both. Dave

[Ratickle]

Remington 870 Express 12 or the Mossberg 500 Persuader. I own them both. Dave

The mossberg is a real nice gun for the money. They go on sale fairly cheap at the major sporting goods stores up here.

[Buoy]

Remington 870 with the 18" smoothbore barrel and iron sights. You don't need lasers or magazine extensions and magnum loads are a waste of time. Buy ordinary 00 buckshot for home defense.

The reason this shotgun is ideal-

Pump action- scary noise and absolute reliability

Buckshot- pistol ammo can over-penetrate. A 9mm will go thru your drywall and vinyl siding and kill your neighbor.

9 pellets means your aim is less-critical. If you do have to use it, your skill level (especially under pressure) matters less.

A good tactical light mounted to the weapon is a definite asset. It's not unusual for someone's drunken teenager to be mistaken for an intruder.

You should be able to find a nice used one for $300.


This sounds about what I'm looking for.
A gun I never actually intend to use.
Price is about what I was expecting.
Suggestions of where to buy?

[Ratickle]

Gun shows are the best up here.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

This sounds about what I'm looking for.
A gun I never actually intend to use.
Price is about what I was expecting.
Suggestions of where to buy?

He made some great points. especially the light

[Chris]

I load with short base on the first two shells in 2 3/4" in case the wife needs to use it. Then two reg 2 3/4, balance then 3" mags. Not sure why, just makes me feel better knowing she won't have a major issue with the kick in a tense situation and I can blow through the shells and do major messing with the mags. From practice, the low base 2 3/4" kick less than the regular load in the 20 guage defender.

While not directly identical, there have been prosecutions for premeditation resulting from staggering ammo in a weapon. One in particular where the defendant loaded in sequence buckshot and slugs. He was found guilty. Sometimes when you have an iffy jury, all it takes is one little thing to push them one way or another. Even when the statutory laws are on your side, an idealistic and over-zealous prosecutor can ruin your life. And they have deep resources. A decent defense could cost you six-figures plus- if you can scrape it together.

[Chris]

Gander Mountain usually gas a rack full of trade-in guns. Especially this time of year in the midwest. Deer season is gone and with the Christmas trades, they may be deep in used pieces. Local gun shops see alot of these guns as well- often on consignment. Check gunbroker.com for pricing guidance.

[Ratickle]

While not directly identical, there have been prosecutions for premeditation resulting from staggering ammo in a weapon. One in particular where the defendant loaded in sequence buckshot and slugs. He was found guilty. Sometimes when you have an iffy jury, all it takes is one little thing to push them one way or another. Even when the statutory laws are on your side, an idealistic and over-zealous prosecutor can ruin your life. And they have deep resources. A decent defense could cost you six-figures plus- if you can scrape it together.

Did he shoot in the back or was it in the house?

Thanks for the heads-up by the way.

[Ratickle]

While not directly identical, there have been prosecutions for premeditation resulting from staggering ammo in a weapon. One in particular where the defendant loaded in sequence buckshot and slugs. He was found guilty. Sometimes when you have an iffy jury, all it takes is one little thing to push them one way or another. Even when the statutory laws are on your side, an idealistic and over-zealous prosecutor can ruin your life. And they have deep resources. A decent defense could cost you six-figures plus- if you can scrape it together.

Would my umbrella policy cover that? I'll have to read it. Don't ever plan on needing anything for this but, if in that situation, don't plan on thinking about it until after.

[itilldo]

cant beat Wal-Mart either if your buying new

[jryan26]

I would take the remington over the mossberg.

[Chris]

Did he shoot in the back or was it in the house?

Thanks for the heads-up by the way.

No, it was a clean shooting. The prosecutor painted a picture for the jury that this was an overly-abitious gun nut that hoped and dreamed for the opportunity to shoot someone. As they say, a story is all in the way you tell it. A guy with a bunch of guns and a stockpile of ammo can be painted to be a dedicated enthusiast or a fringe nutjob, depending on who's holding the paintbrush.

As I've repeated over and over, the typical burglar is unarmed and looking to steal something easy that he can sell quick and pocket a few bucks. They're not difficult to dissuade (lights, etc) and easy to scare off (shouting, that shotgun sound). Scaring them off is definitely in your best interests. But like the nutty guy that killed his ex and her whole family and then blow-torched the entire house, you're better off in court than in a casket.

The rule of thumb for a home defense weapon- there's nothing more useless than an unloaded weapon. The second most useless thing is having that weapon on the other side of the person looking to do you harm.

[Buoy]

The rule of thumb for a home defense weapon- there's nothing more useless than an unloaded weapon. The second most useless thing is having that weapon on the other side of the person looking to do you harm.

I fully agree with this.
I keep my handgun within arms reach of my bed - loaded, but chamber empty and safety on.

I am far from a gun nut, but I certainly am strong on the right to have and carry (although I'm not CCW certified or do I feel the need to be).
Just realized a guy at work has family in the firearms/sportsman shop biz. Never really talked to the guy, but maybe I will tomorrow.

[jryan26]

Hey Chris
I had a friend tell me about home defense shot gun shells that were much shorter that 2 3/4 shells. He said that he saw them at a gunshow. Have you heard of these?

[Sea-Dated]

Great thread. I have a .40 for carry but am looking at a shotgun to keep under the bed for home defense.

[Chris]

Hey Chris
I had a friend tell me about home defense shot gun shells that were much shorter that 2 3/4 shells. He said that he saw them at a gunshow. Have you heard of these?

I have a vague memory of something like that from years back. If you need something like that, go to a 20 gauge.

The big issue is over-penetration. You don't want to shoot through a wall behind your bad guy and kill one of your own kids. iI this is a possibility, you might want to step down to #1 shot or even #4. Another thing to remember is you don't want any choke in your barrel. Your hunting shotgun with a 22" barrel and a full choke is a bad choice for home defense. You're dealing with very close ranges (measure your longest hallway or down your staircase) and it does you no good if all the shot is still inside of the wad's shotcup. You might as well use a 9mm and hope for a hit.

Someone mentioned a sawed-off shotgun. Another poor choice. Not only does a very short barrel give away alot of velocity, you're also now deafened by the first shot and flash-blinded. Smokeless powder is progressive-burning and made to burn down the length of the barrel. In a 10" barrel, half the powder is unburned and expelled in a loud, brilliant flash. Not good if you need to make a follow-up shot on a second assailant- or if you missed.

This brings up some other good points- you really should fire your home defense weapon in a dark enclosed space without hearing protection- at least once. You don't want to fire down that staircase and be so startled that you drop the shotgun and it slides down to your assailant's pal. Try shooting it left-handed too. It's hard to make a semi-concealed shot from cover on the right side of an opening without firing left-handed. You don't want your first time to be the one you need to do it right.

[jryan26]

I keep 7 1/2s in my shotty in the house. It still is not real fun to shoot with the pistol grip/

[Buoy]

Some very good discussion here.
I'm learning alot.
I don't think I'd want to try to handle one of those pistol grip shotguns. I'm not a real big guy (5'11 165#) and I think I'd rather have something to hold steady in my shoulder.
Again, my intention is to never need to use the gun - But I'd like to have it in the event I need it, and in that case, I wouldn't be afraid to use it.

[stecz20]

Some very good discussion here.
I'm learning alot.
I don't think I'd want to try to handle one of those pistol grip shotguns. I'm not a real big guy (5'11 165#) and I think I'd rather have something to hold steady in my shoulder.
Again, my intention is to never need to use the gun - But I'd like to have it in the event I need it, and in that case, I wouldn't be afraid to use it.

only way to know what you like is to shoot a lot of different guns... most places will rent you anything you can shoot, so its a easy way to see what feels good... i know what i think is cool does not always feel good in my hand.. i shot a lot wheni was a kid and my close buddies are getting back into the swing of things....

[Chris]

I keep 7 1/2s in my shotty in the house. It still is not real fun to shoot with the pistol grip/


The 7 1/2's will only penetrate about 2- 3 inches. You can cause some nasty flesh woulds, but if your assailant is motivated, they can definitely return fire.

[Ratickle]

Here's what you're talking about. It's why I have the 1300.


Straddling both the law-enforcement and civilian markets for low-recoil shells is the unique offering from the Mexican manufacturer, Aguila. It's the 1 3/4-inch, 12-gauge Minishell. This cute little number was designed originally for the law-enforcement and military market. Given its compact size, officers can carry a lot of them, and 12 to 14 Minishells can easily fit into the tube of a 20-inch riot gun. Only the Winchester 1300 pump will cycle them without a hitch, but they are just perfect for single- and double-barrel guns. The Minishell comes in three combinations. There's a 5/8-ounce load of 7 1/2s a 7/8-ounce slug load, and a duplex buckshot load consisting of seven 4-Buck plus four l-Buck. Minishells are beginning to appear in local retail stores where their low recoil and recreational qualities haven't gone unnoticed by the shooting public. They're fun to shoot and a great conversation piece at the range.

[Chris]

We are talking about the close confines of a house. If I do not end your life with one blast, I would have to be Hellen Keller....Then again I have a second round......not to mention my other alternatives. Ever see the spread pattern of a 10 gauge in close quarters, say from 10 to 15 feet....Then again to each his own. My opinion.
High-Tide


Another common misconception- actually two. First, there are very few places in the average home that you'll be shooting 15 feet. 7 feet is the average distance for a residential confrontation. Second, even with a cylinder bore, the average pattern for 00 buckshot at 10 feet is about 8". Certainly better than a single 9mm projectile, but you still need to have a decent aim.

[insanity]

this is what I have its the Marine Magnum Remington 870

A highly durable 12-gauge utility gun that resists corrosion on land or water. Electroless nickel plating covers all metal, including the inside of the barrel and receiver. The synthetic stock has generous checkering for positive control. Comes with 18" Cylinder barrel with single-bead front sight, six-round magazine, padded Cordura® and sling swivel studs.

I second this vote, both for the overall length and the additional shell capacity. Would convert my current 870 but pops commandeered it for turkey hunting. I plan to add one of these myself after I find a 1911.

[Ratickle]

Watch this.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK3xtznqpEs&feature=related

[MattBMiller]

Remington 870 Express w/18" cylinder bore barrel and pistol grips. I'll take some pics.

[jmeng]

Pump action- scary noise and absolute reliability


Planning on putting together a home defense shotgun myself pretty soon. Everyone talks about the noise from racking a slide but why would you not keep one in the chamber? My worry is that waking up in the middle of the night with the dogs barking and alarm blaring, the slide release (or whatever the thing is called) might be hard to find. Especially for my wife if she's home by herself. I was thinking about finding a beat up old 1100 and shortening the barrel on it.....

[Audiofn]

Buy a good dog and the need for most of this discusion is moot. If you are going to keep a gun by your bed side then please make sure that the kids in the house understand what it is and take them to the range to understand how to shoot. Go to the range often yourself and shoot so that if god forbid you do ever need to use your gun you hit what you are aiming for. I shoot on average once a week.

[BradB]

Good home defense gun, has a pistol grip also but I like the standard stock better. Mossberg Mariner...... . Good for the boat also!!!!

[Chris]

Planning on putting together a home defense shotgun myself pretty soon. Everyone talks about the noise from racking a slide but why would you not keep one in the chamber? My worry is that waking up in the middle of the night with the dogs barking and alarm blaring, the slide release (or whatever the thing is called) might be hard to find. Especially for my wife if she's home by herself. I was thinking about finding a beat up old 1100 and shortening the barrel on it.....

You don't need to use the slide release if you have a full mag and an empty chamber if you pulled the trigger on the empty chamber once you loaded it. The shotgun noise making the bad guy leave it GREATLY PREFERABLE than having to engage in a gun battle so why not use it. Pump shotguns are like revolvers. They ALWAYS go off. Automatics can and do have cycling issues. If you have the skill and experience to deal with a clearing drill on a semi-automatic weapon in a high-stress situation of exchanging gunfire in your home in the middle of the night in your underwear... you get the picture. The best home-defense weapon is practice. Buying a gun and parking it until the very moment you need it is a very bad idea.

If you have barking dogs and an alarm and you still have concern about repelling armed assailants, you need one of these-

[jmeng]

If you have barking dogs and an alarm and you still have concern about repelling armed assailants, you need one of these-

I wouldn't say concern but always wonder about what if. Good point on dry firing it.

[Chris]

Watch this.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK3xtznqpEs&feature=related

The guy in the vid mentions "tube jam". What he's talking about is a double-feed from the magazine. The magazine tube has a small pawl that releases one cartridge into the lower receiver which is then lifted up into the action and fed into the chamber. It pops back and prevents the next shell from following it in. If you put an extended magazine tube on a shotgun it makes this problem more prevalent. 7 shells compress the follower spring more than 5 and that increases the tension on those first two cartridges. If you really think you'll need more than 5, you probabaly need more guns- or a better neighborhood. Or a different line of work ;)

More isn't always better. Fancy isn't always better. More arguments have been ended with the old, now-useless .38 Special round fired from an old-fashioned Smith revolver than all other calibers combined.

[Chris]

I wouldn't say concern but always wonder about what if. Good point on dry firing it.

Too many people get caught up in thinking about the exchange of gunfire portion of having a stranger in their home. The often overlook the most important objective- making the threat to their family go away. I would gladly trade my TV and stereo equipment for not having to risk engaging in a gun battle. Even if I have a higher skill level than the guy that sneaked into my home, he might get lucky. Even if I win cleanly, I now have a whole batch of issues on my hands that I really don't need. If I can skip all this by scaring them into leaving, I'm up for that option. Sure, I'm going to have that moment of being pi$$ed and wanting to do these scumbags in, but I also don't want to risk the potential costs associated with that happening. Plus, I have insurance.

Like the guy that shot the two burglars on his front lawn last year in Texas- He may not have gone to jail, but I'm certain he spent a nice chunk of his retirement on lawyer's fees to make that happen.

[jryan26]

Here's what you're talking about. It's why I have the 1300.


Straddling both the law-enforcement and civilian markets for low-recoil shells is the unique offering from the Mexican manufacturer, Aguila. It's the 1 3/4-inch, 12-gauge Minishell. This cute little number was designed originally for the law-enforcement and military market. Given its compact size, officers can carry a lot of them, and 12 to 14 Minishells can easily fit into the tube of a 20-inch riot gun. Only the Winchester 1300 pump will cycle them without a hitch, but they are just perfect for single- and double-barrel guns. The Minishell comes in three combinations. There's a 5/8-ounce load of 7 1/2s a 7/8-ounce slug load, and a duplex buckshot load consisting of seven 4-Buck plus four l-Buck. Minishells are beginning to appear in local retail stores where their low recoil and recreational qualities haven't gone unnoticed by the shooting public. They're fun to shoot and a great conversation piece at the range.


Thats them.
http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/Aguila_12ga_Min.html

[jryan26]

The 7 1/2's will only penetrate about 2- 3 inches. You can cause some nasty flesh woulds, but if your assailant is motivated, they can definitely return fire.

Maybe 6's then? I just dont want to shoot through the walls.

[Chris]

Smallest you'd want to go is #4. It may come out the other side of a wall, but it wouldn't have the energy to do any harm. At common inside distances, it'll do the job. beyond 12 to 15', I'd want #1.

[JupiterSunsation]

This brings up some other good points- you really should fire your home defense weapon in a dark enclosed space without hearing protection- at least once. You don't want to fire down that staircase and be so startled that you drop the shotgun and it slides down to your assailant's pal. Try shooting it left-handed too. It's hard to make a semi-concealed shot from cover on the right side of an opening without firing left-handed. You don't want your first time to be the one you need to do it right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glCFfhclrLI&NR=1

Notice the first timer, drops the gun immediately after firing a round to the moon!

[jmeng]

Too many people get caught up in thinking about the exchange of gunfire portion of having a stranger in their home. The often overlook the most important objective- making the threat to their family go away. I would gladly trade my TV and stereo equipment for not having to risk engaging in a gun battle. Even if I have a higher skill level than the guy that sneaked into my home, he might get lucky. Even if I win cleanly, I now have a whole batch of issues on my hands that I really don't need. If I can skip all this by scaring them into leaving, I'm up for that option. Sure, I'm going to have that moment of being pi$$ed and wanting to do these scumbags in, but I also don't want to risk the potential costs associated with that happening. Plus, I have insurance.

Like the guy that shot the two burglars on his front lawn last year in Texas- He may not have gone to jail, but I'm certain he spent a nice chunk of his retirement on lawyer's fees to make that happen.

100% agree. They can have the tv and whatever else they feel like sticking around to carry off until the cops get there. I'm behind a locked bedroom door between them and my wife.

[glassdave]

As someone who just purchased his first gun for home protection i can certainly see the value of the info posted here. Currently the gun feels foreign and intimidating to me but luckily several of my friends come out to the lake house regularly to shoot clays off the deck. My thought is to get comfortable with it over time and maybe get in some range firing as well, this is a long term process for a skill i hope to never use. I have really enjoyed reading everyone's take on the subject in this and related threads. Lots of good info guys, and thanks Chris your input has been invaluable. I wish my reasoning to purchase a gun was under different circumstances (recently lost a friend to a senseless violent crime) but its good to have access to the opinions here to help with the decision. Its interesting to see the complexities of something as simple as choice of rounds and how they are chambered and also how that can play out should you need to use it. How a jury and judge sees those things. Things i certainly would never have thought of if it weren't for threads like this. Good stuff guys. :cool:

[Chris]

As Dave said, you have to think about the whole picture. The guy with the Winchester video- if he were to shoot someone in a home-defense scenario, that video may be uncovered in the ensuing investigation. That leads the investigators to look at every post he's ever made on a website. Those help the prosecution determine their opinion on his state of mind and predilection towards looking for a confrontation. Imagine each and every bit of that on display for a jury deciding your fate. If you were on trial, would you want someone showing a poster-sized blowup of one of your board posts that says something like "if you shoot them, remember to drag them back inside", or something like that?

[Tony M]

this sounds about what i'm looking for.
A gun i never actually intend to use.
Price is about what i was expecting.
Suggestions of where to buy? if you don't intend to use it why even go there , best know what your about to get into espitaly the after effect of when you might use it !!

[Chris]

I think what Tim is saying is that he's hopeful the situation never arises and if it does, he's hopeful it resolves without having to resort to taking someone's life.

No one in their right mind wants to kill another person.

[phragle]

what about these?

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh07-e.htm

[ar15meister]

what about these?

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh07-e.htm

Not good for home defense.....but cool.

I use a Fabarm Martial Pro Forces with low recoil tactical 12 gauge slugs, 2 3/4 inch, they are made to have lower chances of wall penetration but offer maximum stopping power. I keep the ammo in a side saddle on the buttstock because in Canada a loaded gun in the home is illegal.

Surefire flashlight mounted on the forestock and glow in the dark sights.

action is a springloaded pump. I can fire two shots faster with the pump gun than I can with my semi auto beretta xtrema 2

[ar15meister]

home defense is about alot more than guns. Anyone who spends money on a gun but is too cheap to wire an alarm system in their home is being very silly in my honest opinion.

you need an alarm system that you can actiuvate while you are in the house to act as a perimeter alarm and notify you to get your family into a safe place and get your gun out and call police (in that order). I have one and it has scared off burglars twice, woke me up and gotten me armed.

Layered defense is best, the final layer being a 12 gauge shotgun or .45 caliber handgun, preferebly an HK...........

[FountainMike]

I would take the remington over the mossberg.

I agree! The 870 is a nice piece, I used to hunt with the 11-87 very nice gun and always reliable.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_11-87/

[Buoy]

I think what Tim is saying is that he's hopeful the situation never arises and if it does, he's hopeful it resolves without having to resort to taking someone's life.

No one in their right mind wants to kill another person.

That is EXACTLY what I meant by that statement.

And also why I'm thinking a shotgun would be a better idea than the 9mm.
Just the noise of racking it would have a large effect, I would think.

Also, if this move is going to take place, I'm hoping to get a bit further out of suburbia living - and they have critters out there that could harm my dogs.

[Never Enuff]

Just my .02 on this subject. This is based on 40+yrs. in Law Enforcement and 5 yrs. in the Corps.

1. Once you pull the trigger you can never take it back!!!!!!

2. Don't ever point your gun at someone unless your willing and able to kill them.

3. It's a lot different pulling the trigger while your gun is pointed at a person than it is talking on the computer about what you would do if someone broke into your house. A lot of people talk but suprisingly enough there are a lot of people that can't pull the trigger. You better think about it---the results last a long time. If you can't---don't buy a gun. It does not make you any less of a man.
Jay

[itilldo]

If and when you make your final pick of type of shotgun you you buy you may want to consider to get one of these as well

http://www.tubeloid.com/2007/12/02/shotgun-holder-that-attaches-to-your-bed/

[itilldo]

then if you really want to make it easy access around the house start to look at some of these hidden safes

http://www.hiddensafes.com/index.htm

[Tony]

A lot of good avise here as usuall. Im going to throw in a few tidbits in response to some of the comments that were made in the thread.

1. Security systems and motion lights can solve problems you may never knew existed.

2. Dont buy a gun for defense purposes unless you have completely thought through taking another human life in its entirety.

3. Staggered loads (shot/bucksot/slug) in a shotgun = premeditated murder

4. Handloads in any defense firearm = premeditated murder

5. Unless you work in law enforcement pistol grips on shotguns are nothing more than a novelty, go ahead, try and argue....

6. Any firearm that looks like it belongs in a SWAT locker (lasers/lights/folding stocks/pistol grips/heat shields...ect...ect....will be viewed by a prosecutor, jury, and far as anyone else is concerned judge, as premeditated murder.

We all have ideas about what works and what looks cool but at the end of the day if you find yourself in a defense shooting you will be faced with a judge, jury, and prosecutor who will absolutly not see things your way.

[Audiofn]

So..... with all this talk about what some gun can do or can not....anyone here pull the trigger and offed someone legit in the act?
High-Tide

I am sure that anyone that did have to do this would never want to talke about it. It would change your life for ever.

[Never Enuff]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but can either Tony or Chris please give me the specific case citation on the question of premeditated murder ref: staggered rounds being loaded in a shotgun? A PM would be fine
Thanks,
Jay

[Tony]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but can either Tony or Chris please give me the specific case citation on the question of premeditated murder ref: staggered rounds being loaded in a shotgun? A PM would be fine
Thanks,
Jay

I dont know of a specific case offhand, I may be able to find one after a few days of homework. The question is, does the liberal gun hating crowd ever cease to amaze you with their rediculous mentality? Seccondly is anyone here willing to wager a possible prison term on it? :)

[Buoy]

So..... with all this talk about what some gun can do or can not....anyone here pull the trigger and offed someone legit in the act?
High-Tide

Woah,Woah, Woah...
Man, if someone did, I don't want to hear about it, and I'm sure any decent human wouldn't want to talk about it.
I think War-time is different, but that is a heavy weight to wear knowing that you took the life of another man. No matter the circumstance, I don't imagine it feels good.

I started this thread because about 10 years ago I bought a 9mm because I wanted something for home protection.
Didn't really know alot about it. Since then, I've done a bit more reading and research. The idea of having a shotgun that simply the racking sound would scare someone off appeals to me. Also the thought that I may be moving to a rural area that has wild critters, and I want to be able to protect my wife and dog's (the dogs are both wimps that just bark alot, and hide).
I don't ever want to kill someone.
I recall making a mistake in my life several yrs ago that got me in a little trouble - nothing too serious, but I viewed it as a problem. I called my Uncle, and said
"Man, I phucked up" he said "did you kill somebody"?, I said "no", he said " OK, then it's not that bad. I couldn't live with myself if I knew I killed someone".
I couldn't live with myself if I killed someone by making a mistake either.
If I am protecting my home and family, I might be able to forgive myself.
The whole idea is to have something for intimidation and never have to use it, or to protect my dogs - which aren't smart enough to protect themselves.
Getting into different loading techniques is WAY over my head.
Fold away stocks and "cool looking" guns is above me.
I like the idea of the 18" barrel, and a simple design - I don't need a pretty gun, I don't need fancy coatings...
I don't plan on having it in a gun case as a trophy.
It's a tool. One that I hope I would never need to use.

[Chris]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but can either Tony or Chris please give me the specific case citation on the question of premeditated murder ref: staggered rounds being loaded in a shotgun? A PM would be fine
Thanks,
Jay

There was a recent case reviewed in a law enforcement trade magazine where an officer involved in a fatal shooting was prosecuted. One of the prosecution's prime pieces of evidence against the officer was his own handloaded ammunition. In this particular instance, the officer exited his cruiser to apprehend a fleeing felon that had gotten his vehicke stuck in mud. When the officer approached the vehicle, the suspect attempted to extricate it and the vehicle slid sideways, knocking the officer over. The suspect then attempted to run the officer over whereupon he fired on the suspect.

Believe it or not, law enforcement officers are held to the same standards as an individual when a lethal use of force is used. In this case, an idealistic prosecutor set off on their own personal crusade. The rationale they put forth about the handloads was that the standard ammunition wasn't lethal enough for that officer and was indicative of that officer's desire to kill someone.

Virtually all departments require officially-issued ammo as a result of this case- and others.

[Buoy]

Not to make light of this topic at all, but, Chris, is the law enforcement trade magazine bathroom reading for you like the rest of us read Playboy?
No wonder I'm not as smart...

[Never Enuff]

[

"Believe it or not, law enforcement officers are held to the same standards as an individual when a lethal use of force is used."

This has been the case for years, in my experience.


"Virtually all departments require officially-issued ammo as a result of this case- and others."


There are many reasons for this policy, this case and/or similar cases may help support the foundation for these policies.

[Chris]

Not to make light of this topic at all, but, Chris, is the law enforcement trade magazine bathroom reading for you like the rest of us read Playboy?
No wonder I'm not as smart...

I'm sort of a dork.

[phragle]

So..... with all this talk about what some gun can do or can not....anyone here pull the trigger and offed someone legit in the act?
High-Tide

no, but I have dealt with the mess created several times. it's not pretty, it's not hollywood, it's real.

[Ted]

The one good thing to remember while reading all this is that when John Lott did his research he found that literally MILLIONS of crimes have been prevented simply by the victim having a firearm. If you read the NRA mag they usually come up with 3-4 stories a month where a person shoots and kills an assailant/intruder. But there are thousands of cases where someone racks a shotgun or cycles a semi auto and the bad guy(s) flee for their lives.

[bulletbob]

Get that shotgun. I have a rem. 1100 with 18" barrel and mag. ext. I have decades of experience (competive) with shotguns and handguns. The pump is just about idiot proof. It will pop those pigs in the desert and they are generally fun to shoot and eat. My ex loved the 870 pump. She was 5'4" and 120# and handled the weapon like a pro. She enjoyed it. Like someone stated the weapon is just a tool. I have NEVER aimed a weapon at someone I wasn't intending to shoot. Hopefully you will never have to use it. But, practice like you will. Have some plan for you and your wife and practice this. Such as evac to one safe room and contact the cops immediately. Best of luck with your purchase. The gun shows are a great place to find a weapon. Bob

[planetwarmer]

So, are my motion detecting cameras with mounted machine guns showing my intent to kill?

[Buoy]

The one good thing to remember while reading all this is that when John Lott did his research he found that literally MILLIONS of crimes have been prevented simply by the victim having a firearm. If you read the NRA mag they usually come up with 3-4 stories a month where a person shoots and kills an assailant/intruder. But there are thousands of cases where someone racks a shotgun or cycles a semi auto and the bad guy(s) flee for their lives.

Exactly the reason I'd like to have one.

[Never Enuff]

Ted,
The problem being--what about the ones that don't flee for their lives. If you just bought the gun to frighten people away and you have no intention of ever shooting anyone, I think what you will find is that they will take your gun away from you and shot you with your own gun! Many many people are killed with their own gun--including a suprisingly high number of Police Officers. In the early days the rule of thumb used to be when buying a vest--buy the one that will stop a bullet fired from your own gun. I would never advise someone to buy a gun with the sole purpose of scaring someone away. Many other better suggestions have been made--get a dog, get more lights, get an alarm etc etc. just don't get a gun you are not willing to fire if need be.
Jay

[Never Enuff]

Yes--and you will surely go to jail. There is an old, old case that talks about "trap guns" and their use, which is illegal.
(Hopefully your question was asked in jest?????):)
Jay

[planetwarmer]

Yes--and you will surely go to jail. There is an old, old case that talks about "trap guns" and their use, which is illegal.
(Hopefully your question was asked in jest?????):)
Jay

I was just being really really funny.

I actually have 2 dogs (1 big and 1 small), an alarm, motion detector lights, a Remington 870 HD, and 8 years of urban combat training and experience. I would say the most valuable out of all of that is the Jack Russel Terrier. Nothing gets past that thing!:gnorsi:

I recommend the Remington 870 HD. What I always say to anyone who asks me what they should get for personal protection is; "It doesn't matter what you get, 9mm or a 12 gauge. Get something that you will enjoy shooting and shoot it alot. With good gun handling skills and proper shot placement, it wont matter the caliber". The chances of you actually using it for defending your life are extremely slim. If you did open fire on someone, do to the low light and adrenaline you probably wont hit the person anyway. The loud bangs and basketball size flames will most likely cause your would be attacker to flee.

Buy something cool, shoot it for fun, get good with it, and keep it handy.

OR just get some machine gun cameras and forget about the whole thing.

[Madpoodle]

I kinda like sunny Fla and our Castle Doctrine laws...

[phragle]

So, are my motion detecting cameras with mounted machine guns showing my intent to kill?


anybody remember the guy in the news a few years ago? had a liquor store in fl (I think) theives kept breaking in thru the roof access, so he rigged up a piece of chainlink fence under the access and electrified it, came in one morning, found crispy crook and was hit with manslaughter charges.

[itilldo]

anybody remember the guy in the news a few years ago? had a liquor store in fl (I think) theives kept breaking in thru the roof access, so he rigged up a piece of chainlink fence under the access and electrified it, came in one morning, found crispy crook and was hit with manslaughter charges.

maybe but being charged with and convicted is two different things

[glassdave]

i would be very surprised if he wasnt convicted. That is clearly a trap set.

[Ratickle]

I'm sort of a dork.

Stecz will probably submit that as potw material.:)

[phragle]

The family of a convicted burglar who was electrocuted in 1997 when he tried to break in to a bar in Aurora after-hours and triggered a homemade booby trap has been awarded a $75,000 jury verdict to be paid by the owners of the bar and the property.

Frustrated after three burglaries at his tavern in a month, Jessie Ingram installed the homemade security system in late July 1997. He jury-rigged the inside of the bar's windows so anyone breaking in would get a strong shock, then posted several warning signs outside, including one outside the window Harris broke in through.

Drunk and high on cocaine, Harris, 37, either didn't see or ignored the warnings. He forced open a rear window and crawled in, triggering the homemade, electrified booby trap just five days after it was installed.

In a verdict returned Friday, jurors placed 50 percent of the blame for the death on Harris, but assigned the bar's owners 40 percent and placed 10 percent on the property's owner.

No criminal charges were filed.

Jurors weren't allowed to be told that Harris was drunk and on cocaine, nor that he had served time in prison for two burglary convictions.

[itilldo]

The family of a convicted burglar who was electrocuted in 1997 when he tried to break in to a bar in Aurora after-hours and triggered a homemade booby trap has been awarded a $75,000 jury verdict to be paid by the owners of the bar and the property.

Frustrated after three burglaries at his tavern in a month, Jessie Ingram installed the homemade security system in late July 1997. He jury-rigged the inside of the bar's windows so anyone breaking in would get a strong shock, then posted several warning signs outside, including one outside the window Harris broke in through.

Drunk and high on cocaine, Harris, 37, either didn't see or ignored the warnings. He forced open a rear window and crawled in, triggering the homemade, electrified booby trap just five days after it was installed.

In a verdict returned Friday, jurors placed 50 percent of the blame for the death on Harris, but assigned the bar's owners 40 percent and placed 10 percent on the property's owner.

No criminal charges were filed.

Jurors weren't allowed to be told that Harris was drunk and on cocaine, nor that he had served time in prison for two burglary convictions.

so with the limited information that was given to the jurors they come up with a settlement / verdict but what if the jurors are given all of the facts maybe the verdict would be totally different, do you not agree?

[Ratickle]

so with the limited information that was given to the jurors they come up with a settlement / verdict but what if the jurors are given all of the facts maybe the verdict would be totally different, do you not agree?

Yes. The point being made is do not do anything that may give a prosecuter who wants to be in the spotlight any ammo to use against you. Even if you're right, it can cost you dearly.

[itilldo]

Yes. The point being made is do not do anything that may give a prosecuter who wants to be in the spotlight any ammo to use against you. Even if you're right, it can cost you dearly.

I understood that, what I was trying to say is that the court system is not set up to protect us anymore but to fill lawyers pockets. If we would look back to our past one would be praised for protecting his property by his fellow citizens

[Ratickle]

I understood that, what I was trying to say is that the court system is not set up to protect us anymore but to fill lawyers pockets. If we would look back to our past one would be praised for protecting his property by his fellow citizens

I know. The main issue I believe is.

Most Politicians were lawyers or judges.
Most Judges were lawyers.
Most lawyers have become unscrupulous to make money.

Heirarchy of Doom.

[MarylandMark]

Good stuff!

Took the GF out shooting the 9MM a month or so ago. Not a pretty sight- she was scared to death.

Tip- if shooting a multi-round gun for the 1st time; only load one round. She didn't under stand why I did this and didn't "mess up" but after shooting it a few times she got the picture. 1st shot in my gun takes a lot more trigger pressure than the rest of the rounds.