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Demon13
01-25-2018, 06:37 PM
From a layman,s perspective... It would seem after spending toooo much time in northern Alberta and having watched several HORRIFIC crash(s) of which two appear almost identical (2011 Cat double fatality) AND (2014 "Mike Fiore" Cat fatality). Once I got my vision back I asked myself if the boating Industry was doing all it could to keep up with safety measures currently applied in other Racing venues and looking at all new available technology.There is no doubt hull, cockpit, and safety continues to be in the forefront of Manufactures(s) consideration both within and outside the Racing circuit. After watching the Outerlimits crash numerous times it became readily apparent they had a VERY MINIMAL response time available to them (1.1 seconds) or less. Really NO time in either " Blow-Overs ". Within this Era of cutting edge hull design and tremendous powerplant HP available to Professionals and Novices alike it is obvious we need to make every effort to mitigate and reduce the severity of these events within our community as much as possible.. This is not to say great effort is not already being made, however; the loss to families and our Community may be reduced further if we are able to Engineer and implement ideas "outside the box". In short I would ask for any contact info, comments or Sites that may be of help is greatly appreciated. thanks to all from ONE LANDLOCKED Wellcraft owner and HUGE powerboat enthusiast... Regards Lawrence

Ratickle
01-25-2018, 08:36 PM
I have to be a bit pessimistic on this question. Mostly because this is your first post and the question is something that we have discussed behind the scenes for a long time. But some because several of those who have passed are personal friends so I do not discuss these things lightly.

So, can you tell me why you are interested and what you would like to accomplish if you receive the right information?

Demon13
01-26-2018, 12:26 AM
thank-you for your prompt reply.. I will explain all if you have the time to contact myself at your convenience..could NOT think of another way to try and involve my self in issues I feel I my be able to try and help with...have some constructive ideas ...my only qualifications are I start to shake every time I watch the events.. And Safety Codes Officer-Red Seal in CANADA... which has nothing to do with offshore fyi...I sincerely would like to AT LEAST try and be involved with what we all LOVE as far as Safety is concerned.. Once again THANK-YOU... Ratickle

Ratickle
01-26-2018, 09:56 AM
You are a Safety Codes Officer in Canada overseeing Red Seal safety issues?

fund razor
01-26-2018, 12:08 PM
Start here:
https://www.performanceboatcenter.com/default.asp?page=xPreOwnedInventoryDetail&id=4383762&p=1&s=Year&d=D&t=preowned&fr=xPreOwnedInventory

Can probably pick it up for $650,000 and become credible on the subject.

Demon13
01-27-2018, 10:30 AM
Yes I am..Retired last spring and now have lots of time to pursue other things lol..

Ratickle
01-28-2018, 10:22 AM
In your specialty, do you have any experience with strength testing and engineering of structural composites or even metals used to build safety cages or protective shields?

Ratickle
01-29-2018, 10:02 AM
If you do, and really do want to spend some time on the subject, I will help get you up to speed.

It is a very personal subject to me.

fund razor
01-29-2018, 11:58 AM
I question the strategy of arming a non-participating well meaning "safety" aficionado with the tools to restrict the rights of others.

Ratickle
01-30-2018, 09:59 AM
That's why the third degree. He may change his mind about making it a retirement project. But, for the right people, things could be improved.

As I said, it's personal to me. I've lost friends I've raced with, friends on the poker run circuit, and friends in shootouts.

Demon13
01-31-2018, 02:08 PM
Completely understandable..!! Unfortunately not a Structural engineer and my knowledge of safety cages is limited to offroad vehicles..I also have lost friends chasing our dreams...

phragle
01-31-2018, 10:00 PM
Completely understandable..!! Unfortunately not a Structural engineer and my knowledge of safety cages is limited to offroad vehicles..I also have lost friends chasing our dreams...


All you need to know is kinetic energy is kinetic energy, and energy can neither be created nor destroyed only transferred. 10,000 pound boat hits water (which is incompressible) at an odd angle, What is the strength of the material in the direction of force, now if the material is sufficiently strong, what is the strength of the material in the direction of the deflected force?

fund razor
02-01-2018, 08:01 AM
I like where Phragle is going with this, but actually... water will not compress. It can be displaced, but not squashed. I think it was Archimedes who suggested that if water would compress, boats would not float.

I would suggest that sometimes deflection of the force is not the best strategy, rather acceptance of the force. (ie: crumple zones.)

When my 10,000 pound boat hits water at an odd angle, I say "ow."

phragle
02-01-2018, 09:45 AM
I like where Phragle is going with this, but actually... water will not compress. It can be displaced, but not squashed. I think it was Archimedes who suggested that if water would compress, boats would not float.

I would suggest that sometimes deflection of the force is not the best strategy, rather acceptance of the force. (ie: crumple zones.)

When my 10,000 pound boat hits water at an odd angle, I say "ow."

I fixed my statement to what it was supposed to say but was autocorrupted. I ment it does not compress....

fund razor
02-01-2018, 10:35 AM
I fixed my statement to what it was supposed to say but was autocorrupted. I ment it does not compress....

I sort of figured. You are good at science.

MOBILEMERCMAN
02-01-2018, 11:51 AM
Water does not compress but, it does grab and hold you. I have personally been banged up a few times. The ones ejected seem to have the best chance of escaping injury.

I once ran in Key West in an old Factory class. It at that time was outboard single engine and stock production twin i/o's. After running much faster boats I did not think you could get hurt at 60. I throttled with complete abandon no fear of getting hurt. On the final lap after rounding turn 1 the boat stopped. There was no , " Oh buck", I don't even really know what actually happened other then it must have hooked and turn violently right and stopped. The driver flew 30 or so feet out of the boat. I had the death grip, one hand forward on grab handle, the other holding a strap i placed between the seat and seat pedestal as I used a foot throttle. I absorbed all the energy in my left side ribs. Thru a ballistic life line I clearly broke 9 ribs. The boat sustained some damage and the driver was completely unscathed.

I have repeatedly been taught lessons of Respecting the water. It is unforgiving. The average boater lacks this respect. Many simply have no idea how fast bad things can happen.

Now I can spin my experience and say something like ," Its like racing a dirt bike; Sooner or later you hit the ground." IMO its seldom the equipment no matter how crude or sophisticated its the operator in pleasure situations and circumstance in racing. In racing you push the limits of ability and equipment. Few are smart enough to know their limitations and race for decades.

I have been really lucky. I don't like to rely on luck. And I have ABSOLUTE RESPECT for the water.

Disclaimer...No science or advanced education behind this statement of opinion. Just Real world 40 years of experience in boating.

fund razor
02-01-2018, 12:48 PM
Is it fair to say you are suggesting that the operator is a key factor in whether any given piece of equipment is "safe?"

phragle
02-01-2018, 01:18 PM
With dirt thrown in the mix (as some of you know my background) one real world observation that has stuck with me is that of all my bike and atv racing friends etc.... most bad crashes happen not racing, but prerunnng or rec riding..

When you are racing, you are focused, locked in. Rec riding, often you are going just as fast, but a different program is running......

MOBILEMERCMAN
02-01-2018, 02:43 PM
Is it fair to say you are suggesting that the operator is a key factor in whether any given piece of equipment is "safe?"

Yes.

fund razor
02-01-2018, 06:34 PM
I agree Jim, I just don't bring your credibility on the subject. I am a rec runner, and was never a racer on any level whatsoever. I understand the "zone," because I was a professional musician, but I can't relate to the risk. I rode the edge of a different envelope.

Your point that the person running the machine, at the end of the day, means so much more than any single (or compounded, for that matter) design change or safety-related enhancement or even rule, is critical to this discussion. Thanks for making it. :)

MOBILEMERCMAN
02-01-2018, 07:58 PM
That race in Key West still sticks in my mind as a great ride overall. Its was as good as it gets for having fun until it wasn't.

The point I was making that should not be over looked is I got really busted up at 60 mph. Stress increase exponentially at every 10 miles an hour increase in speed.

A good example of stress and pressure is expressed in an old fashion speedometer. It's a simple pressure gauge. 70 mph is 70 lbs of pressure. 100 mph is 140 lbs in round numbers.

phragle
02-01-2018, 10:27 PM
I cant speak for everybody, but for me, that "zone" Fundy speaks of. when your in that zone, there is no risk in your mind, its all instinct. Its like jogging down the street, you come to a curb, you simply step up and over the curb and keep going, you don't come up to the curb thinking, ""If I dont step up over the curb I will trip" Now if you somehow pop out of that zone mid race, it can cause heart palpations....

MOBILEMERCMAN
02-01-2018, 10:52 PM
Being in the Zone does not exempt you from injury. You can be in the zone and something can happen so fast you don't have time to think or react. In less then a blink of your eye it can happen. The hope is your heart is still beating and your face is not in the water.

I get it, the zone you speak of, your focus is so heightened that time seems to slow down. The shoreline could be on fire and you'd never notice.

MOBILEMERCMAN
02-02-2018, 12:25 AM
High speed boats are truly unique machines. They operate simultaneously in two very different mediums. Add to that one of them has an ever changing surface. The faster you go the more you fly over the water. The bigger the seas the more the surface changes. Seas have faces, swells and holes which act in various patterns and amplitudes. Mixed up and converging seas can create an infinite combination of varying swells and holes. When two swells meet at a given point the height is the sum of the two. Three converge and its height is the sum of all three for that moment. Same is true for holes.

Know your limitations, understand your equipment, respect the water, and don't mess with mother nature if you are searching for safety in hi performance boating.

Demon13
02-08-2018, 04:18 PM
Well said fund razor... you got half of that bang-on.."non participating well meaning" when it comes to racing....:)

fund razor
02-08-2018, 06:48 PM
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