Recent accidents

[PARADOX]

It is really sad to hear about all the recent accidents in the boating community.
Not knowing all the details, however, is there anything we can do to help reduce these situations?
I’m really feel for and sorry for all the people involved.
Questions/issues popes in to my head. Excessive speeds at locations? IE, rivers, bends, lakes with traffic. To fast for conditions? Mechanical issues? Driver mistakes?
Again not knowing the details and it seems that all the recent happenings had experienced drivers, but I think there are some things we as a community could do to help all boaters safer. Here is an example what I’m concerned with. Last 4th of July... Hundreds of boaters partying at an near by island. We are all drinking and having a great time. Many of us were staying overnight in the boat. Then there is a local guy with a CC. about 1:00AM just decides he had enough, get’s his passengers in the boat, takes of like a bat out of hell. NO LIGHTS. He forgot. I knew where he was heading, but there is a long marked channel to navigate before the ramp. Then he would be driving home. If I would be more level headed at the time (less drinking) I would have just go after him and through his key in the water, but I was in no condition to operate a boat.
I think all performance boaters and most reg. guys are very safety minded, then there is the time when safety is just ignored.
Drivers go nuts to get photo ops. Push their boats beyond the “safety zones” driving FT at night. Etc. etc.
Again… not faulting any of the drivers in the recent tragedies. It could be simple “panic” maneuver avoiding a dingy with no lights or getting caught in a lobster trap line.
Long ago in Europe.. (I don’t know if it’s still the requirement) an operator had to take and pass a course. Just like a driver license. I had some close call to the other “moron” not being safe… yet, I would have been in the news.
Should we/or the gov. implement a required course before anyone can operate a boat?
Any thoughts on this ?

[ChiefApache]

What about those who do know how to drive, and still die?

The guy Pat who passed away this past week was a very experienced boater. OK, no flotation device. I realize there are those who wear them religiously, and there are those who only wear them when in poker runs and in rougher water.

I do think each and every person who purchases a boat must without a doubt take a safety boating course before they are given a registration for their boat. That to me is smart, common sense. But I don't believe it will reduce the amount of accidents.

I recall RHC and his SO on a 37 Outlerlimits were thrown from the boat when the tie bar came loose. They were in the front pack of a poker run. Had they been wearing their flotation devices, they would most likely have been hit by a boat. Because they were not wearing them, they were thrown, saw the other boats coming towards them and dove below the water until they went by. I'm by no way advocating not wearing flotation devices. This is just one incident. And then there are the countless others.

Why wasn't RHC and Steph killed when thrown from the boat? I dunno, guess it wasn't their time????????

I don't have the answers, or pretend to. We have accidents in car, planes, trains and bicycles everyday. Why do we question it so much more when it happens on the water?:confused:

[THEJOKER]

What people have to realize is a fast , high performance pleasure boat is a race boat , period. Wear lanyards , wear race pfd's , no back seat passengers @ WOT, no alcohol , no night time boating and don't run over your head. My deepest sympathy goes out to all the losses the past week.

[Reindlpowerboats]

What people have to realize is a fast , high performance pleasure boat is a race boat , period. Wear lanyards , wear race pfd's , no back seat passengers @ WOT, no alcohol , no night time boating and don't run over your head. My deepest sympathy goes out to all the losses the past week.


Agreed. No Alcohol is a must for at least one person on the boat. People die all the time drinking and driving cars home, and there is a lot more involved with driving a boat, especially at night.

[boatme]

I think i have written enough on this subject the answer is simple

WE NEED CHANGE In thought process, in saftey equiptment, and in the reality that you can't change stupidity

Some will never learn others need a wake up call once in a while (we have had plenty of those)

[boatme]

Chris

I got your message and will try to call you later today

[CAPO71]

This is a very hard subject to talk about with me, because I see so much out on the water.

[boatme]

I have lost friends in offshore racing and in Poker runs and just out pleasure running

More needs to be done and change is a coming weather we want it or not

[PARADOX]

There are "boater" whom take the sport seriously and are safety minded,, and there are some jack a$$ "boat owners" that have no clue.

A few months ago I was at our normal dock.. Waiting in line and waiting for my turn to get the Formula out.. Here comes a drunken a$$hole with his fishing boat .. rams into my boat.. almost braking my leg trying to stop "his" boat... He's cussing and swearing all over.. Now I get a scratch in the hull/paint. NO WAY THAT GUY should be operating... not even a weed wacker.. He also banged into a parked car getting his trailer.. The cops were called.. but by the time they arrived he was long gone driving drunk.. pulling a small boat.. and how knows what other problem he might have coused..

Law enforcment personnel are lazy SOB's.. They are spending more time on easy tickets.. (IE lack of mufflers,, or a dim light,, expired stickers) then taking time to protect and serve..
I have no answers but things just got to change.. I seen boaters.. cutting me off in a channel... taking short cuts. (due to a shalow draft or ? ) and unless I take extreme care.. collisions may occur.. or worse..

I have no problem taking extreme care.. but I have to rely on others boaters integrity a bit. There are several comments/posts about PR, racing event and accidents.. but I feel safer in a PR with most boaters have similar experience.. then out on a weekend excursion with some morons with $. and no operating or safety skills.

I would vote for a course before getting anyone in a "captain's chair"

[THEJOKER]

I had to learn the hard way on this subject. My brother broke his back in the backseat of my race boat. It was a freak accident but it happened. A go fast pleasure boat is the same thing as a race boat. You can't run WOT with passengers in your boat hanging on for dear life. We've all done it and we all know we got away with something. Treat your go fast boat with great respect and caution. WEAR PFD'S , USE LANYARDS , DO NOT DRINK ALCOHOL , DO NOT BOAT AT NIGHT. Ok I said it again and hopefully this will save a life!

[Steve Miklos]

What about those who do know how to drive, and still die?

The guy Pat who passed away this past week was a very experienced boater. OK, no flotation device. I realize there are those who wear them religiously, and there are those who only wear them when in poker runs and in rougher water.

I do think each and every person who purchases a boat must without a doubt take a safety boating course before they are given a registration for their boat. That to me is smart, common sense. But I don't believe it will reduce the amount of accidents.

I recall RHC and his SO on a 37 Outlerlimits were thrown from the boat when the tie bar came loose. They were in the front pack of a poker run. Had they been wearing their flotation devices, they would most likely have been hit by a boat. Because they were not wearing them, they were thrown, saw the other boats coming towards them and dove below the water until they went by. I'm by no way advocating not wearing flotation devices. This is just one incident. And then there are the countless others.

Why wasn't RHC and Steph killed when thrown from the boat? I dunno, guess it wasn't their time????????

I don't have the answers, or pretend to. We have accidents in car, planes, trains and bicycles everyday. Why do we question it so much more when it happens on the water?:confused:


Was this accident an equipment failure?
Thanks
Steve

[boatme]

What about those who do know how to drive, and still die?


I don't have the answers, or pretend to. We have accidents in car, planes, trains and bicycles everyday. Why do we question it so much more when it happens on the water?:confused:




Those who still die usually are not wearing the proper equipment at the time and get the same exposure as someone when dies in a car accident without a seat belt




Well part of the answer is that the accidents ending in death in car, planes, trains and bicycles usually (not always) are not at organized pleasure events.

Not to many poker runs with cars, planes ect... and those that are organized events I haven’t herd of to many deaths at them mostly due to the fact they aren’t going 130 mph on the road

we had an old car rally here a few weeks ago and a 1929 street rod was going down the highway when he had some type of failure and the car veered to the right and hit a cement barrier and killed one person The exposure was high on this accident because it did not have the modern safety equipment of the day (seatbelts, air bags, ect..) and was a reason for the death

Our sport has less people involved in it, so the participant to accident ratio is WAY HIGH and the exposure is even worse

I have said it many times If you have only 100 or 200 extreme boats that are insured for 1 million dollars and those people pay lets say $12,000 per year to insure there boat on average is just over $2,000,000 in revenue on 200 boats One accident and it will get eaten up many times over in lawsuits and settlements

There is only two companies that i know of that regularly cover the very fast high end boats, they are about to say no more insurance if you are in an organized event, PERIOD
The insurance companies are in it for profit and when it is no longer profitable it will go away



Let’s do a little more math, there has been at least one tragic accident 3 of the last 4 years involving 4 very expensive boats at Poker Runs

42 Outerlimits, 43 Nor Tech, 36 Eliminator, 36 Skater and a number of other boats accidents that ended in a lot of damage to the boats (see Big Cat Poker Run)
Total deaths were 8 in these 4 boats, lawsuits for these are all in the many many millions (Per person that was killed)

Now with cars, the insurance companies around the country take in millions every day in premiums and even with a Lambo or some other exotic the car value is much less than a high end boat


Exposure is high in our favorite sport. To try and rationalize it with other forms of transportation is an interesting argument, but has nothing to do with the reality of what is happening or going to happen to poker runs

Fact is something damn well better change and it better happen fast

Just my .25 but I come from a very informed position

Marc

[ChiefApache]

Was this accident an equipment failure?
Thanks
Steve

I have no idea.

[ChiefApache]

Those who still die usually are not wearing the proper equipment at the time and get the same exposure as someone when dies in a car accident without a seat belt




Well part of the answer is that the accidents ending in death in car, planes, trains and bicycles usually (not always) are not at organized pleasure events.

Not to many poker runs with cars, planes ect... and those that are organized events I haven’t herd of to many deaths at them mostly due to the fact they aren’t going 130 mph on the road

we had an old car rally here a few weeks ago and a 1929 street rod was going down the highway when he had some type of failure and the car veered to the right and hit a cement barrier and killed one person The exposure was high on this accident because it did not have the modern safety equipment of the day (seatbelts, air bags, ect..) and was a reason for the death

Our sport has less people involved in it, so the participant to accident ratio is WAY HIGH and the exposure is even worse

I have said it many times If you have only 100 or 200 extreme boats that are insured for 1 million dollars and those people pay lets say $12,000 per year to insure there boat on average is just over $2,000,000 in revenue on 200 boats One accident and it will get eaten up many times over in lawsuits and settlements

There is only two companies that i know of that regularly cover the very fast high end boats, they are about to say no more insurance if you are in an organized event, PERIOD
The insurance companies are in it for profit and when it is no longer profitable it will go away



Let’s do a little more math, there has been at least one tragic accident 3 of the last 4 years involving 4 very expensive boats at Poker Runs

42 Outerlimits, 43 Nor Tech, 36 Eliminator, 36 Skater and a number of other boats accidents that ended in a lot of damage to the boats (see Big Cat Poker Run)
Total deaths were 8 in these 4 boats, lawsuits for these are all in the many many millions (Per person that was killed)

Now with cars, the insurance companies around the country take in millions every day in premiums and even with a Lambo or some other exotic the car value is much less than a high end boat


Exposure is high in our favorite sport. To try and rationalize it with other forms of transportation is an interesting argument, but has nothing to do with the reality of what is happening or going to happen to poker runs

Fact is something damn well better change and it better happen fast

Just my .25 but I come from a very informed position

Marc


I understand what you're saying Marc. I don't disagree with what you're saying at all.

We have a local run here that won't be happening next summer because the couple that run it are afraid of the liability. It's held on their property so if someone would fall they could sue for injury, in addition to the fact if something happened on the run they would be liable too.

It's too bad because PR are a lot of fun. I've only been to one major PR and that was 1000 Islands in Aug 07. Other than that we've only done local runs that average 30 boats per run. While the big runs are fun, the local runs are much more enjoyable IMO.

[boatme]

I understand what you're saying Marc. I don't disagree with what you're saying at all.

We have a local run here that won't be happening next summer because the couple that run it are afraid of the liability. It's held on their property so if someone would fall they could sue for injury, in addition to the fact if something happened on the run they would be liable too.

It's too bad because PR are a lot of fun. I've only been to one major PR and that was 1000 Islands in Aug 07. Other than that we've only done local runs that average 30 boats per run. While the big runs are fun, the local runs are much more enjoyable IMO.

I like the big events and the small ones

they all have somthing interesting to offer but the time has come for things to change and no matter who resists it it is coming

My wife was actualy in the front seat of your boat when Scott P owned it and ran it in SOTW (The Video i posted)

They are all fun but it is time to move ahead with new ideas and thought processes

Many people are pulling away due to liability and for all the bravado somone has to put an event together and ultimatly THEY are going to be found responsable if somone has an accident

We need LEAGLE reform as much as anything else

[underpressure]

Some have hit on one of the major items, the person driving should not be running any harder or faster than the comfort level of his passengers, especially the inexperienced one in the boat. I always run towards the back of the pack in the poker runs just because of the "guy who tripped over a box of money and now I have a fast boat" or the guys who want to race. (Go race then) Some of my friends bust my chops because I don't run as hard.

I have an amazing amount of fun making lots of noise, cruising at 50-60, the girls getting sun (maybe on more areas than they should), and stopping off at a few places. Lifejackets put a big damper on that. I am the first one who would make everyone put them on if there were problems or caught in the rough in a storm or such. Now comes the big problem of people with common sense and how do you enforce that in a run.

I also have a huge problem with people in a poker run putting on a ski vest or even worse the $2.00 orange life preserver that would barely save you falling off a dock. It is a joke! When we raced I got us the real deal with shorts sewn in and the best helmets. But this crap enforced at a poker run is an insult to anyones intelligence. The cheap stuff will only help you find their clothes easier, or maybe just the life preserver.

It always boils down to the guy driving be it you or the guy next to you. You want safety then it means the real deal, jackets with real helmets, lanyards for all, and serious spacing between boats. Then add mandatory safety complete inspections and driver courses.......... who is gonna do that?

Most of all this comes down to speed, water conditions, and the driver doesn't it? Even at 50 you can get pretty hurt, it gets exponential from there.

I sell boats for a living and spend more time that just about any salesman preaching control, learning to dock, trim.... Most people on a sea trial just grab the throttles "to see what she will do". There is no easy answer to this but cheap life preservers is no fix.

Sorry, this just gets me burning

[underpressure]

Here is what you need in an open boat if you even want to dream about being safe. Who is gonna wear this?

Oh yeah, I will not get in a car without a seat belt eevn to drive down my street and will not ride the motorcycle without a helmet!

[THEJOKER]

Here is what you need in an open boat if you even want to dream about being safe. Who is gonna wear this?

Oh yeah, I will not get in a car without a seat belt eevn to drive down my street and will not ride the motorcycle without a helmet!


Smart fella! People have to realize that joy ride may be the last ride of your life. Fast boats are dangerous , give them the respect that they require!

[boatme]

smart fella! People have to realize that joy ride may be the last ride of your life. Fast boats are dangerous , give them the respect that they require!

amen

[underpressure]

And do it at the proper time in the proper place. As for me I am not quite ready to be sliding and skipping into the end yet on my wild ride. I love boobies too much!

[boatme]

No need to end the fun just manage it correctly and safley :)

[PARADOX]

Some have hit on one of the major items, the person driving should not be running any harder or faster than the comfort level of his passengers, especially the inexperienced one in the boat. I always run towards the back of the pack in the poker runs just because of the "guy who tripped over a box of money and now I have a fast boat" or the guys who want to race. (Go race then) Some of my friends bust my chops because I don't run as hard.

I have an amazing amount of fun making lots of noise, cruising at 50-60, the girls getting sun (maybe on more areas than they should), and stopping off at a few places. Lifejackets put a big damper on that. I am the first one who would make everyone put them on if there were problems or caught in the rough in a storm or such. Now comes the big problem of people with common sense and how do you enforce that in a run.

I also have a huge problem with people in a poker run putting on a ski vest or even worse the $2.00 orange life preserver that would barely save you falling off a dock. It is a joke! When we raced I got us the real deal with shorts sewn in and the best helmets. But this crap enforced at a poker run is an insult to anyones intelligence. The cheap stuff will only help you find their clothes easier, or maybe just the life preserver.

It always boils down to the guy driving be it you or the guy next to you. You want safety then it means the real deal, jackets with real helmets, lanyards for all, and serious spacing between boats. Then add mandatory safety complete inspections and driver courses.......... who is gonna do that?

Most of all this comes down to speed, water conditions, and the driver doesn't it? Even at 50 you can get pretty hurt, it gets exponential from there.

I sell boats for a living and spend more time that just about any salesman preaching control, learning to dock, trim.... Most people on a sea trial just grab the throttles "to see what she will do". There is no easy answer to this but cheap life preservers is no fix.

Sorry, this just gets me burning


Yuo made some good points.
My hat's of to Lenny, (he's got a Slingshot) and all like him.
Short version: Sarasota run.. seas are nuts. Coming back from lunch.. Stormy weather. He and I running back to the Hyatt. He was ahead,, at times side by side.. seas are gettng worse.. then he slows.. stops.. I turn around and check on him.. He was putting his life lines on and making his passangers do the same. We let the PR bunch go and we both had our PFD's on.. Benig sensible make you more of a man/woman or captain then getting to be first at the dock. The right safety oriented state of mind. :seeya:

[Lucididee]

I'm posting here and I have NOT read any post on here in it's entirety. Those that know me know that I have been directly effected with those that have lost their lives. And this is why I am going to post.

There is NOTHING one person can do. Performance boating, whether you want to believe it or not IS an extreme sport, no matter how fast you performance boat goes. As a young child (6 years old to be exact) I was involved in an accident. Small craft adviseries my butt. We speared a wake, took on water, lost all power and every instrument was wipped out on the dash. Thank god for fishermen that saw us. The water ripped me outta my mothers arms (who was preganant with my sister & myself without a life jacket). My parents tell me I was scared & crying the next time I was on the boat. My father made me get on the boat as I was crying about how scared I was, but I learned to get over that fear.

Also remember I was the one that also got on a 46" Skater and went 190mph, and actually said to myself "I could die on the ride if things go wrong." I got on. (We had pfd's & oxigen) But no way would I have survived if something went wrong. I also am not married and do not have any children.

With that said, I believe that's it's our thought process that needs to change more than anything. Everytime I get on a boat, no matter what speed the boat is capable of, I do say to myself that it could be my last ride and maybe that's where I'm different, I accept that it could also be my last. Ok, that's all I'm gonna say on this topic, and I probably will not come back and reply to any quotes. But just do me a favor, before we think that we can change the world, just everyone take a look at themselves and look at what you do when you go boating. Just think before you do something.

[boatme]

Interesting, a post and run. I hated it when my ex wife would say to me "let me tell you this and I don’t want you to respond when I am done "
It is kind of like saying Here is how I feel and I don’t want to hear how anyone else feels
I didn’t bother to hear what you had to say but here is my opinion anyway then I am leaving hmmmmm Well I am going to respond

Here is the bigger problem although i agree with everything Lucididi said but reality is a lot different. The next problem is family and friends

I am sure that the guys that died at SOTW were well aware of what they were getting into

One of the two men in particular, in my opinion had total understanding of what he was getting into as He signed a waver, he had been at the event 3 years running as a participant, he owned his own offshore boat. But as soon as he died his family started there lawsuit with a 10 million dollar demand

We all need to be responsible for our decisions that is absolutely true , the problem is some ambulance chasing attorney will convince the family that to get closure they need to get MONEY

It is all well and good to say we are responsible for ourselves but when we go to the big lake in the sky there will be someone placing blame. The more opportunity you give a lawyer the more they will jump on it

In deposition for the accident at SOTW we were asked how fast the boats were going in our logo The attorney was trying to prove we were encouraging racing since or logo had two boats side by side with water spraying

Don’t kid yourself, you may feel you are responsible for your self but if there is money to be made on your demise someone will try to get it, and the more ammunition they have, the more likely they will win some big money. To me it demeans someone’s death. not provides closure

The answer is to protect your self from lawsuits. The enemy is the attorneys! We need legal reform, and is one reason I will never vote for any politician that is a lawyer. As long as we do vote for attorneys into office we will never get the legal system changed. They aren’t going to work against there buddies or the profession that they will go back to after they are out of office

[ChiefApache]

My wife was actualy in the front seat of your boat when Scott P owned it and ran it in SOTW (The Video i posted)

I watched this again yesterday! We absolutely love the boat. She just performs in a way we never thought possible. I hope we can get some video of us in her one day in some decent water in Lake Erie.

[FULL FORCE]

I watched this again yesterday! We absolutely love the boat. She just performs in a way we never thought possible. I hope we can get some video of us in her one day in some decent water in Lake Erie.

You mean better then the video I have of it in 6" ripple?

[ChiefApache]

You mean better then the video I have of it in 6" ripple?

This one:

http://media.putfile.com/SABER---2006-SOTW-Poker-Run-60

Sorry for the hi-jack....back to topic.....

[FULL FORCE]

This one:

http://media.putfile.com/SABER---2006-SOTW-Poker-Run-60

Sorry for the hi-jack....back to topic.....

yes...lets take her out today!

HJ over....

[Lucididee]

Interesting, a post and run. I hated it when my ex wife would say to me "let me tell you this and I don’t want you to respond when I am done "
It is kind of like saying Here is how I feel and I don’t want to hear how anyone else feels
I didn’t bother to hear what you had to say but here is my opinion anyway then I am leaving hmmmmm Well I am going to respond

Here is the bigger problem although i agree with everything Lucididi said but reality is a lot different. The next problem is family and friends

I am sure that the guys that died at SOTW were well aware of what they were getting into

One of the two men in particular, in my opinion had total understanding of what he was getting into as He signed a waver, he had been at the event 3 years running as a participant, he owned his own offshore boat. But as soon as he died his family started there lawsuit with a 10 million dollar demand

We all need to be responsible for our decisions that is absolutely true , the problem is some ambulance chasing attorney will convince the family that to get closure they need to get MONEY

It is all well and good to say we are responsible for ourselves but when we go to the big lake in the sky there will be someone placing blame. The more opportunity you give a lawyer the more they will jump on it

In deposition for the accident at SOTW we were asked how fast the boats were going in our logo The attorney was trying to prove we were encouraging racing since or logo had two boats side by side with water spraying

Don’t kid yourself, you may feel you are responsible for your self but if there is money to be made on your demise someone will try to get it, and the more ammunition they have, the more likely they will win some big money. To me it demeans someone’s death. not provides closure

The answer is to protect your self from lawsuits. The enemy is the attorneys! We need legal reform, and is one reason I will never vote for any politician that is a lawyer. As long as we do vote for attorneys into office we will never get the legal system changed. They aren’t going to work against there buddies or the profession that they will go back to after they are out of office

You suckered me in ......... But I guess that's why she's you ex, you didn't listen to what I said entirely-- just kidding. Plus, I alos have a habit of not going back to posts to see if I've been quoted on anything. I wanted to post something but I didn't want it to turn into a pissing match. I've been around high-persormance all my life. It's the only boating I know. I was not even a year old when I went for my 1st ride on a high-perf boat.
I was very good friends with Pat Reiter and am good friends with Bobby Baumgarten (accident in MD involving 2 experienced racers sea trialing their boat), I only knew Phil DeJana & Kevin Graff from seeing them at the race site (accident in Patchogue, AeroExpress), I traveled in the same circle with Bruce Grimminger (Kyptonite accident at the Hot Toddy run), I saw my friends in Papa Dukes, Jersey Boyz, DockBlood and Extractor get toosed outta their boats, my friend Billy hit a wave wrong crossing the ocean in his 27 Velocity and near knocked his brother unconscious. Not one of the above stories has involved any ambluance chasers and all involved are experieced boaters.

I had friend that went on the CT Fun Run about 2 weeks ago, and all of them very experienced boats, but that did not stop me from worring all day that everyone that left the dock would make it back to the dock. And thank god, they all did. I also watched somewho who is close to me get in Miss Geico and run over 170 MPH, and was just happy he made it back. That's also not to say that I would not have jusmped in the boat if i was offered and ride, cause I would have. But I know that there is only 2 outcomes when it comes to the end of the ride.

I don't take any political sides. I do agree with you that $ does not equal closure. I still say ignorance is the biggest issue. And also that the people that do not have have any knowledge of the sport is the worst ones of the bunch. Some people get in a boat and think it can never happen to them, they just think is just so cool to get a ride in a speed boat.


PS - Never call me a post and run again. Cause when we meet face to face, this conversation will continue, and then you'll understand why I posted the way I did. After all these years on these forums, you should know me better by now.

[boatme]

I called you a” post and run” because that is what you said you were going to do. You sad “I probably will not come back and reply to any quotes" this after you posted. I kind of think that is a post and run but we will have to agree to disagree
I have been as close, and as affected as you to deaths and accidents on the water and for you to state "I'm posting here and I have NOT read any post on here in its entirety” makes me wonder how you can respond without reading what is written

I have lost many friends and racers in the past many years and I don’t want to see it happen again thus the reason for my many posts on this subject lately
Not the least is the recent death of friend Kevin Sellers at the Cumberland poker run And racer Randy Linebach A few years ago


I have been in a number of boats running well over 100 Mph and have many friends that own them. I have owned many offshore boats myself and I was thrown out of a boat many years ago at a high rate of speed I know what that is like as well

I have been a poker run promoter, and a race promoter, so I figure I have plenty of insight on this

Do a search on me and you will see my background I have been involved in offshore boating in some way since back in the 80’s

I also have been sued after a boat went over and two men died at our poker run SOTW (gives me a better prospective than most)

If you want to post your feelings then great start a thread and make your position known.
But responding to a thread without reading it to know what it is about fully, then saying you won’t hear any other ones response to your post seems unreasonable and irresponsible

I am sure we will meet at some point, and I am happy to here what you have to say, but I suggest you read before you respond, or start a thread of your own if you care to pontificate from a point of view non responsive to another persons statements

Best of luck and have a great day

[phragle]

I have met booth of you... your hearts are in the right place... nuff said.