Truth vs Fiction

[Top Banana]

Just answered a question on another site re the heritage of a particular boat and thought it might be interesting to the serious members if we started something over here too.

For instance did you Know, that a very talented guy by the name of Gary Gabrecht once worked for Mercury Marine running their racing division. In 1979, he and another guy started a new boat company with a deep v design and put a pad on the bottom of the boat.

If you listen to the rumor mills, you would hardly ever know that Gary was ever involved in the start up of that company and had a lot to do with it's inital success......the company is known as FOUNTAIN.

[Top Banana]

Also the model now known as the TOP GUN started out in 1978, being just called the 37.6. Cigarette was making a 39 footer that was 8 feet wide, but it had a bottom that encouraged flight.

Jerry Jacoby and Don Aronow thought that if they took off the rear portion of the bottom, the boat might be a winner, so they blocked the 39 hull mold and shortened it to 37 feet 6 inches.

Since they didn't have a deck mold, they laid up a race deck in the 36 foot long by 10 foot wide race deck mold and chopped off the extra width, stretched it and then glassed it to the 8 foot wide hull and put a rub rail over the rough bond. Voila', the first Top Gun is born and was called AJAC HAWK.

It was then rigged and wrapped in plastic and shipped off to Argentina for the December 1978 World Championship in Mar del Plata. It arrived at the sub base that we used for the pit area and was unwrapped to great admiration from all of us on hand. The photo in Argentina clearly shows the designation of 37.6 on the stern.

At the same race, Richie Powers and Bob Biech unwrapped their latest creation for Tom Gentry, AMERICAN EAGLE. A new 38 foot Lary Smith Scarab. Both boats were the cuttng edge at the time. The photo below shows Richie, Bobby and me in the cockpit of the American Eagle before the race. The other photo shows the boat coming back from having the compasses swung.

[BY U BOY]

Very cool! I'm glad you are here to give us this awesome history.

[Top Banana]

Very cool! I'm glad you are here to give us this awesome history.

Thanks........Chris invited me and he understands how important the history is especially for those who were not lucky enough to be there as it happened.

We are also trying to bring the history back in our own boats. We hope to have a Don Aronow Limited edition 28 for the Miami Show that will be in his color scheme but single engine as a sit down boat like the specials that he made at the end of his career. We also have his son Michael helping us with this limited edition to make sure they are very special boats.

[cosmic12]

Thank you. I look forward to more and more history lessons. How about if you were to do a question of the day and see what we really know. It might be a fun thread.

[Ratickle]

Thank you. I look forward to more and more history lessons. How about if you were to do a question of the day and see what we really know. It might be a fun thread.

I think it should be a question of the week though. Otherwise I'll never get anything else done.

[cosmic12]

I think it should be a question of the week though. Otherwise I'll never get anything else done.

I agree might be a little easier.

[boatme]

Charlie Good to see you as always

Marc

[wstultz]

Nice! Love the boat. Was the 39 version the black number 8 called Cigarette Hawk???

[Top Banana]

Nice! Love the boat. Was the 39 version the black number 8 called Cigarette Hawk???


No, that boat was built later in the 80's......... the 39 that was built out of the first 39 mold was Bounty Hunter for Billy Martin.

[wstultz]

No, that boat was built later in the 80's......... the 39 that was built out of the first 39 mold was Bounty Hunter for Billy Martin.

Do all of the 39's have the little freeboard kick up near the transom?

[Top Banana]

Do all of the 39's have the little freeboard kick up near the transom?


Yes, you have to remember that the 39 was just the 35 footer stretched.....that means they took the back of the boat and just kept adding on, until they got to the point where they said OK.

Now the 35 as can be seen in the photo here, Natural Light, sat low enough with the twin staggered set up.....to stretch it and not add to the freeboard, they would have had the transom underwater on a 39.

So, they added the lip to the side of the boat to bring the deck up higher on the 39 as seen here on Long Shot. They did the same thing to the 40 when they stretched the 36 footer to 40 feet.

[wstultz]

Thanks for the info Charlie. By the way, Do you know if Daddy Cool is in the same spot it was eight months ago?

[Top Banana]

Thanks for the info Charlie. By the way, Do you know if Daddy Cool is in the same spot it was eight months ago?

Sorry don't know!!.

I know that he has that boat and the old Michelob Light and has only been using the # 3 boat rather than Daddy Cool.

MARC....thanks....glad your on board here also.

[stecz20]

cool daddy is for sale on oso... its in the race boat section... just saw it the other day...

[T2x]

But it wasn't called Fountain......... and it wasn't built by either Gary or "His Shortness"......

Two questions...name of boats?

Name of builder?

T2x

[cosmic12]

But it wasn't called Fountain......... and it wasn't built by either Gary or "His Shortness"......

Two questions...name of boats?

Name of builder?

T2x

About time you showed up:hurray: Glad you made it:cool:

[Top Banana]

Welcome aboard......Excalibur .....and Bill Farmer !!

[T2x]

Welcome aboard......Excalibur .....and Bill Farmer !!


Wrong on the first answer.

Correct on the second

[Geronimo36]

There's an old 39' here in NJ that sits on a trailer at Julian's Bait and Tackle on route 36... It has a 3-pack cockpit but with TRS Drives, black hull, white deck, no name.... It's behind a fence and i've never inquired, anyone know what boat that is???

Rumor has it the owner of Julians took the boat, flipped it over and pulled a mold from it , stretched it and made his own open fishing boat.....

[wstultz]

There's an old 39' here in NJ that sits on a trailer at Julian's Bait and Tackle on route 36... It has a 3-pack cockpit but with TRS Drives, black hull, white deck, no name.... It's behind a fence and i've never inquired, anyone know what boat that is???

Rumor has it the owner of Julians took the boat, flipped it over and pulled a mold from it , stretched it and made his own open fishing boat.....

Pics! Pics!

[Geronimo36]

Pics! Pics!

I'll see if I can get a few this weekend when I'm out driving around.

[Geronimo36]

Drove by on my lunch break and took two cell phone pics, sorry for the quality...

[Dude! Sweet!]

Wrong on the first answer.

Correct on the second

Executioner comes to mind.

[T2x]

Executioner comes to mind.

You win the cupie doll.......

[Geronimo36]

So who really had the first padded offshore V bottom???? Steve Stepp, Executioner/Excalibur/Fountain et al???

[HabanaJoe]

Geronimo,

The boat at Julians is a Squadron they claim.

The boat that Julian made, his 40'er I think that your refering to was his little center console lenghten out to 40' by Mark King who used to work for me at SH. If you remember when Joe's 40' was being built there at his shop there was an explosion that blew the garage doors off each end. The fellow that they aired out of there was Mark King with burns on his hands and face (story turned out well, no lasting injuries to Mark).

Julian made his 40'er long before he acquired the Cigarette/Squadron.

The boat was for sale for $40,000 as is.

Do not believe there is any race history with that boat. Julian's kid says "drug runner" but I think people just like to claim that?

Joe Gere

[Lee]

It is a 39' Squadron XII has "XEX" hin number, and was purchased from a Government auction. 2 large deck hatches, extra fuel tanks, NO thru hull exhaust, white deck/black hull sides, and NO cabin make it suspect. Price 2yrs ago was $12,000
Here are some pictures.

[Lee]

Couple more.

[Geronimo36]

Lee, thanks for the pics and the info.... I've passed that darn thing so many times that I often think about buying it just to flip it over and pull a mold off it and put a step in it or something.......

If memory serves me, the boat used to have thru-hull exhaust and it was filled in the last couple of years. What year is the HIN?

thanks for the pics inside the hull, it must be a light lay up.

[Geronimo36]

Geronimo,

The boat at Julians is a Squadron they claim.

The boat that Julian made, his 40'er I think that your refering to was his little center console lenghten out to 40' by Mark King who used to work for me at SH. If you remember when Joe's 40' was being built there at his shop there was an explosion that blew the garage doors off each end. The fellow that they aired out of there was Mark King with burns on his hands and face (story turned out well, no lasting injuries to Mark).

Julian made his 40'er long before he acquired the Cigarette/Squadron.

The boat was for sale for $40,000 as is.

Do not believe there is any race history with that boat. Julian's kid says "drug runner" but I think people just like to claim that?

Joe Gere

Joe, thanks for the info! If I remember correctly the boat was lengthened and the last 3-5 ft of the boat was "flat"??? Where did it go?? Years back I kept my Scarab at Gateway and he would dock it there a couple of weeks... very interesting boat but it looks like it was all done in woven roving....

[HabanaJoe]

Geronimo,

I believe it is still in the yard there but in the back, yes it was pretty flat. Joe built/raced JS's for many years, I think he wated a big JS!!!

It was heavy, nothing fancy about it, laid up a like a Bruno & Stillman if you know lobster boats.

[Magicfloat]

First pad would be Steve Stepp,with a little help from Darris Allison

[Chris]

It is a 39' Squadron XII has "XEX" hin number, and was purchased from a Government auction. 2 large deck hatches, extra fuel tanks, NO thru hull exhaust, white deck/black hull sides, and NO cabin make it suspect. Price 2yrs ago was $12,000
Here are some pictures.

God only knows what Don hung XEX serial numbers on (or how many boats shared numbers) but that's a Cigarette 39 Competition hull. Engine centers are a bit off- never seen one with S/S's.

[BBB725]

Just answered a question on another site re the heritage of a particular boat and thought it might be interesting to the serious members if we started something over here too.

For instance did you Know, that a very talented guy by the name of Gary Gabrecht once worked for Mercury Marine running their racing division. In 1979, he and another guy started a new boat company with a deep v design and put a pad on the bottom of the boat.

If you listen to the rumor mills, you would hardly ever know that Gary was ever involved in the start up of that company and had a lot to do with it's inital success......the company is known as FOUNTAIN.


When did Gary start Second Effort?

[T2x]

So who really had the first padded offshore V bottom???? Steve Stepp, Executioner/Excalibur/Fountain et al???

Steve had the first padded offshore vee over 30 feet in the late 70's. The first Fountain Garbrecht Executioner hit the water in 1980 or so.

The first Linder Challenger 21 hit the water in 1975.........and that was a pad hull. That was probably the first.

Of course Paul Allison created the first pad hulls and is the inspiration for all of the others. He made his first version in 1965.

T2x

[Geronimo36]

the first Top Gun is born and was called AJAC HAWK.

It was then rigged and wrapped in plastic and shipped off to Argentina for the December 1978 World Championship in Mar del Plata. It arrived at the sub base that we used for the pit area and was unwrapped to great admiration from all of us on hand. The photo in Argentina clearly shows the designation of 37.6 on the stern.

Photo courtesy of my mother.... :)

[Lee]

God only knows what Don hung XEX serial numbers on (or how many boats shared numbers) but that's a Cigarette 39 Competition hull. Engine centers are a bit off- never seen one with S/S's.

Chris, I know exactly what you mean:confused::confused:

[Brownie]

Executioner

[tony davis]

Wrong on the first answer.

Correct on the second

Here you go...

[Chart]

Also the model now known as the TOP GUN started out in 1978, being just called the 37.6. Cigarette was making a 39 footer that was 8 feet wide, but it had a bottom that encouraged flight./QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Yes, you have to remember that the 39 was just the 35 footer stretched.....that means they took the back of the boat and just kept adding on, until they got to the point where they said OK.

Now the 35 as can be seen in the photo here, Natural Light, sat low enough with the twin staggered set up.....to stretch it and not add to the free board, they would have had the transom underwater on a 39.

So, they added the lip to the side of the boat to bring the deck up higher on the 39 as seen here on Long Shot. They did the same thing to the 40 when they stretched the 36 footer to 40 feet.

The 35 is the Mistress, right? It has a very low free board, and the 38/top gun has a tall free board. Both have the "crease" in the hull sides about the middle between the chine and the gunnel. I'm certainly not challenging your statements, but how do you explain that? Thanks.

[Top Banana]

[QUOTE=Top Banana;2776]Also the model now known as the TOP GUN started out in 1978, being just called the 37.6. Cigarette was making a 39 footer that was 8 feet wide, but it had a bottom that encouraged flight./QUOTE]



The 35 is the Mistress, right? It has a very low free board, and the 38/top gun has a tall free board. Both have the "crease" in the hull sides about the middle between the chine and the gunnel. I'm certainly not challenging your statements, but how do you explain that? Thanks.

The 35 hull is used on the Mistress and the Awesome, just different decks.

The sides, chine to rub rail, of both boats are the same.....the additional height comes from the deck above the rub rail. The Mistress was flat along the rub rail, the Top Gun has a deck that rises above the rubrail in the back of the boat.

The original deck on the Ajac Hawk was just a 36 race deck that was 10 feet wide and when they put it on the 8 foot wide boat, they cut the extra off and glassed it on. That is the style deck they used on all the race boats that size then.

What do you need explained about the "Crease"?

[Geronimo36]

Was there any reason for the Crease? IMHO it's what makes the Cig's and Apaches!!!!

Looking at the construction of my boat, it looks like Bobby glassed the whole length of the crease for stiffness?? Love the way my boat is built, it's a brick chit house!! It just makes it a bit difficult when you have to run a few wires thru numerous bulkheads but who cares!

[Top Banana]

If you have a "Wide" beam boat and you want to make it a "Narrow" beam boat but don't really want to change the bottom that has proven it really works, you cut the side and bend the top of the side in to make the "Narrow" beam. What is left in the side is a "Crease"

[Brownie]

Charlie, are you being fair, and posting both true and false stories?

[Airpacker]

Charlie, are you being fair, and posting both true and false stories?

Thats gonna take some explaining.

[Geronimo36]

Thats gonna take some explaining.

Yeah, what's deal? :)

[NJgr8ful]

Charlie, are you being fair, and posting both true and false stories?

hhmmmmm:bigear: :biggrinjester:

[Brownie]

Charlie's inference is that the WB and the 8' beam are the same boat, below amidships. If that were true, then Roseanne and Beyonce must share the same lower units............

[Brownie]

How about Aretha Franklin and Tina Turner?

[Top Banana]

Charlie, are you being fair, and posting both true and false stories?

As we know the bottom of that 35 was built with a different spec from the 36and had a nice rocker to it. As a plug, it just sat there for a while before it was actually built into a mold and a real boat.

Any inference that they, the 35 and 36, are the same bottom and just the sides were changed is misleading on my part, I should have been clearer.....but then again that is why Brownie is here to keep us on the straight and narrow.

Actually you know who I should ask.....at the restaurant last week, I referred to his creating not only the sport of offshore, but also you and me too!! He would know for sure.

PS I didn't mention anything about Glastron having the "crease" for years before either.

[Brownie]

By the way, Nick Chapman, who "plugged" many of the famous vee's, said that the 'knuckle' was the most difficult hullside feature, and never did another. All the other Ciggie type boats with knuckles, were direct "pops".

[northernoffshore]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/35-Cigarette-Race-Boat-7_W0QQcmdZ ViewItemQQcategoryZ31270QQihZ015QQitemZ250328657502QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[northernoffshore]

daddy cool is on ebay

[Chart]

[QUOTE=Chart;22621]

The 35 hull is used on the Mistress and the Awesome, just different decks.

The sides, chine to rub rail, of both boats are the same.....the additional height comes from the deck above the rub rail. The Mistress was flat along the rub rail, the Top Gun has a deck that rises above the rub rail in the back of the boat.

The original deck on the Ajac Hawk was just a 36 race deck that was 10 feet wide and when they put it on the 8 foot wide boat, they cut the extra off and glassed it on. That is the style deck they used on all the race boats that size then.

What do you need explained about the "Crease"?

Sorry for any confusion. I meant if the 35 (Mistress/Awesome) hull was stretched to 37.5', the transom rub rail should be at the waterline because the 35's are such a low free board boat to start with. After looking at several pictures of 35's and then of 38's (both flat decks and top guns), it's obvious the 38's have taller hull sides.

The crease appears to centered halfway between the chine and gunnel on both the 35 and the 38, but that is harder to see in pictures and therefore I'm not as certain of this as I am of the above statement. But assuming it is centered on both the 35 and 38, then the top of the hull side of the 38 couldn't have just been built up higher in the molding process to create a deeper/taller boat.

I'm willing to accept the 38 is a stretched 35, but how do you resolve the hull side / rub rail issues between the two models?

[MikeyFIN]

Yes, you have to remember that the 39 was just the 35 footer stretched.....that means they took the back of the boat and just kept adding on, until they got to the point where they said OK.

Now the 35 as can be seen in the photo here, Natural Light, sat low enough with the twin staggered set up.....to stretch it and not add to the freeboard, they would have had the transom underwater on a 39.

So, they added the lip to the side of the boat to bring the deck up higher on the 39 as seen here on Long Shot. They did the same thing to the 40 when they stretched the 36 footer to 40 feet.


hmmm .... dear mr. McCarthy did you forget about the Cig/Squadron 39 ?
That didn´t have a kink and Bobby Saccenti had to use that mold for Jerry Kilpatricks Apache with a different deck (raised Gunnels) than the regular 39 Squadron.

[MikeyFIN]

And here´s the Customer/regular version:
The SQ had a fairing like a Flatdeck or late Mistress and the Cig 39 Squadron had a V shaped one.
Can anyone tell something about these 39´s ?

[MikeyFIN]

And is this the Apache of Kilpatrick in the background?

plus another pick of a black regular SQ39

[Toasty]

James Cann in the black and red squadron

[MikeyFIN]

Yes indeed James Caan it is, didn´t even look that close at the guys.

the interior and cockpit of one is exactly like a 35 Mistress and by looking at a 39 seems the extra 4 feet is just in the engine comp to make room for Staggereds, right?

[MikeyFIN]

Was there any reason for the Crease? IMHO it's what makes the Cig's and Apaches!!!!

Looking at the construction of my boat, it looks like Bobby glassed the whole length of the crease for stiffness?? Love the way my boat is built, it's a brick chit house!! It just makes it a bit difficult when you have to run a few wires thru numerous bulkheads but who cares!

377 Kaamas and 38 KVs have also one... the difference in width comes from the upper kink in a Scarab.
Come to think of it...quite funny that a Scarab is 37.7 and a Cig flatdeck was a 37.6... and quite similar in their hulls...

[Steve 1]

By the way, Nick Chapman, who "plugged" many of the famous vee's, said that the 'knuckle' was the most difficult hullside feature, and never did another. All the other Ciggie type boats with knuckles, were direct "pops".

He was right the crease is hard to keep straight even with the tools we have nowadays.


http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/06c2b62e6a.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

[old377guy]

Mikey, actually a Scarab is 37.6' (37' 7"); and yes isn't it an interesting coincidence, crease and all - Jeff

[Toasty]

dont know ask Charlie, he might know cause he was sniffing around cig at that time...
cant really tell by the exhaust if they are wide or close...

C