Apache Lineage Question

[old377guy]

One of my life goals is to own either a 41' or 47 Apache. My friend who would like to co-own of these boats with me sent me a link to an article last week. I thought that I knew the Apache story but apparently I'm confused even after reading the book "Blue Thunder". In the article Bob Saccenti references a least 3 different "types" of 41' Apache. In no way do I want to step on any toes or create controversy, but what hull is what and how do I know exactly what came from what. If it's not to much to ask, what hull is Bob Saccenti referencing as the poorer performing type? I recently saw a 47' Apache listed online and I appeared to have a notched transom and pad bottom..??? I was going to post this on the main forum, but who better to answer these points that the Apache gang. Thanks.

[C35]

What "article" are you referring to?

[old377guy]

gonna try to find that link again

[old377guy]

ok, here's the link that my buddy sent me.

http://www.teamspeed.com/forums/performance-boats/6874-apache-hulls.html

[Ratickle]

I'll bring that over here to start from and take out the "added" comments to help it make more sense......

I'll also add a pic just for the heck of it.....:)


72521


Bobby;

"I founded Apache Powerboats in 1978 when I started tooling my 21’, 33’ & 39’ boat line. I incorporated Apache Powerboats and went into production in 1980. At the same time I also owned and operated Race Headquarters, Inc., a custom Hi-Performance center and I also co-owned Hawk Marine Power.

In 1982, I brought the Kramer’s into Apache as my partners, sold my interest in Hawk Marine Power and absorbed Race Headquarters, its crew and all its equipment into Apache. The first order of business was to produce the baddest wave buster’s money could buy. Since the tooling for my new 39’ offshore was still months away from completion, I went to the King himself, Don Aronow, and made arrangements to purchase a new 41’ mold he had just completed. The first boat out of the mold was blue and tan and Benny called it “Warpath”. My original Race Headquarters crew rigged Warpath and off we went for sea trial. Ben and I ran Warpath offshore through some of the heaviest seas imaginable at over 90 miles per hour. Ben and I knew immediately that we had built a real winner. We entered Warpath in the APBA Open Class and won the Key West World Championship in 1984. The original factory team was Ben Kramer – Driver, Bob Saccenti – Throttles, and Tom Evans – Navigator. In 1985 we took Second in the Key West U.I.M. Worlds, with the red “Team Apache”.

Ben and I were now racing around the world with APBA & U.I.M. to promote Apache Powerboats. Because of our demanding race schedule we decided to contract Bobby Moore to rig all of our 41’ production and to serve as Crew Chief on our race team. In 1985, I ended my partnership with the Kramer’s on a friendly note agreeing to share the name Apache. I called my company Apache Performance Boats; he kept my original name, Apache Powerboats. Even though we were now two separate companies, we continued to act as one, sharing boat show space and tooling. We also continued to race as a team for promotion of the name. In 1986, we won the National Championship and were awarded the coveted US1 in our “prototype” catamaran “Team Apache”. That was also the year we introduced the new 47’ triple engine Apache Superboat.

In 1987, things started to fall apart. The Kramer’s had major legal problems and the government seized all their assets including Fort Apache Marina and Apache Powerboats. The government hand picked one of Ben’s employees to run the company while they completed their investigation. Some of Ben’s employees were involved with Ben’s problems, some left, and new people were hired. With the new star employee running things, the first order of his business was to disassemble the last 41’ Bobby Moore rigged and copy all measurements and systems and make jigs and templates to duplicate Bobby Moore’s genius. Bobby Moore has never gotten over this to this day.

Many years passed and it was business as usual for me. Around 1996, the government auctioned all the Kramer’s assets. The only thing they did not sell was the Florida Trademark for Apache and the Apache Powerboat name. I did not think about it at the time because my Apache Trademark, although slightly different, is a Federal Trademark. From time to time my attorney in Washington would inquire about the State trademark and was always told “it’s not for sale”. Well, SURPRISE – SURPRISE. After one such inquiry, I was advised that the same STAR EMPLOYEE had just purchased the Florida Trademark from the same “it’s not for sale” government for a couple hundred bucks. What a success story, the employee gets to own the company. Yeah.

Now the real confusion.

With Apache Powerboats & Apache Performance Boats already sharing the market, the old retired 41’ molds were purchased at auction for 12k and re-sold to a company in Ohio that advertised that they could build the “41’ Apache for half the price”. Also, the star employee moved to the other coast and started to produce boats by Xerox under another tribal name and when I wasn’t looking he slid a few Apache’s in for good measure. Personally, I think he should have named his company “High Dollar Lead Sleds, Inc.”. Additionally, in the early – mid 90’s, a Miami based company made a very, very bad copy of the 41’. They changed the bottom, cut the sheer, and the first time in the water the boat rolled in its first turn. The molds were stacked and stored in the sun and weather out in the yard to never be used again. Just recently those same molds were sold to an individual in Blountstown, Florida who is now saying he is the “New Apache”. What a joke. I wouldn’t use those molds for a flower pot.

All of this would have surely brought tears to Geronimo’s eyes.

Also, rumor has it that I sold out, died, left town, closed up and went out of business and so on. WRONG. NONE OF THE ABOVE

All that I have written here can easily be verified and I know, I lived it.

If you have any questions please call or fax me. I do better on the phone than the keyboard. The resin makes my fingers stick to the keys.

Also, thanks to all the Apache owners who put the TLC and money into keeping their Apache in tip top shape and promoting the heritage.

Best regards,

Bob Saccenti"



I think I got this cleaned up properly.
If not, I'm also sure I'll find out and correct it.....

[Ratickle]

Now, as for what I believe I know in addition to the above.....

I think it's confusing a little because Bobby isn't filling in all the blanks in that letter. Hopefully this will help, (and is close to accurate), fill in those blanks.

Here goes..................:)

Bobby bought the original molds from Don Aronow and began producing the Apache 41. No boats had been pulled from that tooling prior to that purchase. Under Bobby and Ben Kramer, Apache built race and pleasure versions of the boat. Each one was different like custom boats all typically are. Not only could you get it any way you wanted, you could get any weight (within reason) you wanted.

If you wanted it really fast, you could get a light layup and a paper thin deck, etc. Also, "back then", production was a little different. On a standard layup a pleasure Apache will have some variance in weight, maybe as much as a thousand pounds or so, due to more or less resin and cloth going in various places. The standard Apache hull is laid up like the original Cigarette's. They're made to last, that's why so many people like to call them "resin buckets". Apache and Cigarette built boats like the Amish build barns. Not so much what we call "High Tech" now, but what they knew they wouldn't break from decades of experience. Unlike today's boats, they were built old-school. Resin and cloth, and lots of it. No composites, no balsa or foam cores, no carbon, no honeycombs.

As far as "different 41's", you have the original "Saccenti built" boats and then the Apaches built once Mark McManus took over the company. McManus then built a boat called the Comanche 42 which Bob references. Believe it or not they were even heavier than the 41's. Great ride but not all that highly regarded in the Apache community. The short of it is that Apache really doesn't build boats and hasn't for some time. They do alot of restorations.

A few years back a money guy by the name of Thad Allen thought he could just begin building boats under the name Apache. He thought he could litigate and get the name. While that was going on he went ahead and built some very fancy CNC molds and set up shop. Long story that I know very little of, but he lost in court and shut everything down. Those molds eventally ended up in the hands of Pantera who has produced a couple boats from them.

Another company called Saber got ahold of of some 41 molds and began producing a 41. Nice boat and pretty well built up here. They also have the original 47 molds but have built none, (I've heard rumors one is in the works now). This is the company Bob references as the "Ohio company" but they're really here in Michigan. If anyone picked up where Bob left off, it's probably Saber.

There are some "splashed" molds of the 41 floating around but I don't believe anyone has produced a boat from them. An apache copy was built a few years back. Boat was called White Lightning. It was a custom one-off and built by someone not all that well known. Very nicely built, but there's only one and it's not an Apache.

So as far as different versions-

Saccenti built 41(few of them)

McManus built 41(most of them)

McManus built 42 Comanche (not an Apache but based on the 41, not sure how many)

Saber built 41 (not an Apache but from the molds. I see them up here all the time as friends have a couple of them)

Thad A. built 41 Apache (none made)

41 Pantera (nothing really Apache about it other than the name connection)

Various copies and splashes (unknown, White Lightning is the best known)

So there really aren't that many options in a real Apache 41. It comes down to the various full-stagger ex-raceboats and in pleasure boats the side-by-sides or the short-stagger boats. Then the various splashes and "tributes".





Ladies and Gentlemen, I hope this is really close. I'm waiting........:lurk5:

[old377guy]

Paul, thank you for the brief synopsis, it really answers a lot of questions for me. I did assume that Saber was the "Ohio" boat and was aware of the Pantera build as well. I had also filled in the blank about McManus and must assume that the pads and notched transom versions are his. That only leaves me wondering about the West Coast reference. I certainly admire all the beautiful restorations that Apache owners have done throughout the years. The boat that had caught my friends attention recently is the 47' for sale with twin #6s.

[Ratickle]

A little more candy.......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpj_NYNDKgs

[rschap1]

That was an AWESOME VID !!

Reminds me of Boatme's Smoke on the Water Saber vid...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og3-FIMjB7k&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLB5813DC7103D0A67

This sure was one HE-- of a read

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/powerboats/apache-back-750.html

[old377guy]

great old video. rschap, I finally followed my own link and read some of the stuff on the boatdesign. This is the kind of think I was trying to avoid, just wanted to get some facts which Paul has ably provided.

[rschap1]

Quite a $hi+storm going there for a while

FOR SURE !

[DrGaryDC]

I believe my 1986 41 3 man set up is number 11

[Ratickle]

I believe my 1986 41 3 man set up is number 11


You mean this one spanking the freighter?????:26:


72532

[Ratickle]

With the checkered flag?????


72533

[DrGaryDC]

That be the one, great pics, haven't seen those before

[Ratickle]

Harrison, two years ago......

[DrGaryDC]

Any other good pics, ratickle?

[Ratickle]

I'll do some digging....

[Flying Dutchman]

"West Coast" refers the the west coast of Florida, the McManus shop is in Ft. Myers.

I believe that all of the 47's have a little pad, and all 41's and 47's have a notch. I think the 41 saber "Wiked Won" is the only 41 without a notch. I am not pro, just what I have seen over the years.

The only diference I am aware of in "real" 41 apaches is in the transom angle. You can see that most have a "nuckle" where the transom juts out to meet the rubrail, others , like Warpath and the Chiro One boat are straight.

[C35]

So as far as different versions-

Saccenti built 41(few of them)

McManus built 41(most of them)

McManus built 42 Comanche (not an Apache but based on the 41, not sure how many)

Saber built 41 (not an Apache but from the molds. I see them up here all the time as friends have a couple of them)

Thad A. built 41 Apache (none made)

41 Pantera (nothing really Apache about it other than the name connection)

Various copies and splashes (unknown, White Lightning is the best known)

So there really aren't that many options in a real Apache 41. It comes down to the various full-stagger ex-raceboats and in pleasure boats the side-by-sides or the short-stagger boats. Then the various splashes and "tributes".





:

Add Chief to that list. Maybe the most Apache of all the boats not actually made by Apache- and maybe some that were.

[Ratickle]

Add Chief to that list. Maybe the most Apache of all the boats not actually made by Apache- and maybe some that were.


Yea, ask Sunkin and some of the Chicago boys about riding with Bobby on the wheel and sticks in it at Michigan City a couple years ago......


I think a couple came back ghost white......

[Ratickle]

"West Coast" refers the the west coast of Florida, the McManus shop is in Ft. Myers.

I believe that all of the 47's have a little pad, and all 41's and 47's have a notch. I think the 41 saber "Wiked Won" is the only 41 without a notch. I am not pro, just what I have seen over the years.

The only diference I am aware of in "real" 41 apaches is in the transom angle. You can see that most have a "nuckle" where the transom juts out to meet the rubrail, others , like Warpath and the Chiro One boat are straight.


Only Rumors is the only Apache 41 with a step I'm almost positive. I do think I'd call it a "Real" one.....

[old377guy]

Man, you guys have unearthed more info that I though I'd get - impressive.

[DrGaryDC]

What other boat out there has the history, stories, and legacy like an apache. That is why they are so desirable:)

[DrGaryDC]

Does anyone know what the last number 41 was built by Saccenti?

[C35]

Only Rumors is the only Apache 41 with a step I'm almost positive. I do think I'd call it a "Real" one.....

I talked to the owners brother once. He was launching it near Chicago. Told me they got ahold of the mold Cigarette used to make the piece for their prototype step 38. It's a big overlay that bonded on the bottom. I guess the apache really is a larger cig 38. or at least very close. In know the boat is definitely taller up front. He told me it really helped midrange cruise but not much on top. I don't know much about steps but maybe because its just one step?

[DrGaryDC]

Im not sure i would want to mess with an apache bottom. My dad made a good comparison. The 41 apache is like an old classic car, such as a 50 mercury, and the new technology stepped bottom vee's are like a lamborghini. You cant turn a mercury into a lamborghini:sifone:

[C35]

The guy with the step apache owned teh company that built the chief. From what he said and what I've read it does everything the 41 does, but 10 mph faster with the same power. It also doesn't have that lope theyre notorious for at cruise.

Like rat said, they did something to the chines and it turns like its on rails. There's also something about their steps that's different but i dunno how it works.

Your analogy was good, but im guessing if saccenti built it and it's based on the 41, maybe it's more like a Lambo Diablo vs a Murcialago-- just an evolution.

One other thing i remember him telling me. That the following year the top gun had the same (i think) chine as the chief. He didnt say directly that they swiped it but i got the point

[DrGaryDC]

Thats true about the lope at cruise speed. I was in a 39 MTI that didnt smooth out the ride until 90mph. Guess they all have their issues:)

[C35]

isnt that the truth!

i was on a chris cat once- a miserable and soaking wet ride until about 65-70. then is was an amazing ride.

[Ratickle]

isnt that the truth!

i was on a chris cat once- a miserable and soaking wet ride until about 65-70. then is was an amazing ride.


A friends 33 Ocean Express was the same way. I swear at up to 50 in 4's every wave came over the bow......

[fund razor]

I get hit by the occasional rogue wave until I am really up on top of it.

[DrGaryDC]

I think the only time i got wet was in the ocean city inlet, that is some nasty water

[Ratickle]

I think the only time i got wet was in the ocean city inlet, that is some nasty water

You should have been at Orange Beach......:cool:

[BarChopper]

As far as I know. The bottom INSERT on Only Rumors was attached BY Chris Merrill. Chris was a boat manufacturer in Granger, IN. Built cats, and did mold work, repairs and such on offshore boats. He owned Only Rumors for some time. The insert is the same insert that was used on the early F2 cigs. I really didn't notice the step doing much until the 6 drives were added on Rumors. It had old style 3's on it the first time I was in it, and a long time after... so many hours with that set up. The step we all assumed helped efficiency at cruise ( would make sense right? ). When the six drives came into play the boat really livened up. we started looking at top end numbers and noticed it was a bit more efficient then similarly powered 41's. This is based ENTIRLEY on posted numbers from other owners, and Apache peeps. The boat does settle more on the notch, and the lope is lessened. ( see Pics) I have read comments that it could make the boat unstable in high speed cornering... I havent ever felt that or had concern, BUT the boat has never been in a offshore race where the situation for a HARD PUSHED turn would be in need. Being it is a pleasure set up. I dont ever see that turn happening.

The Chief bottom is a totally different animal.

I attached some pics for everyone to look at.

I did see some Cigs doing the reverse chine in the early days. I am assuming it was for grab in corners at speed.

I know nothing about the notch counts on Apache builds and Saber builds But I did notice the absence of notches on the Sabers I looked at but the addition of the boxes on the six drives had to cure that a bit. :-)

[Ratickle]

I think one of the issues with the reversed chine in the Cig is that it is not legal for racing in Vee. In the early days of Offshore, the Cats and Vees ran together so it made no difference. There can be no downward chines on a Vee because they trap air which is a no-no. They then have to race in the Cat class as an air entrapment design. The new step design with the air entrapment strake design behind the last step would have the same issue.

[C35]

yeah you wouldnt want to reduce spinouts on the racecourse.

[Ratickle]

yeah you wouldnt want to reduce spinouts on the racecourse.


That's also true.....:26:

[Ratickle]

By the way, that is also the reason the Vee rules say steps must be vented to the atmosphere.

[Sean Stinson]

The poor performer Bobby is referring to was the Cigar Boat......it was splashed off one of the Team Apache boats and one was built and rolled in dumbfounding bay when the test pilots put it into a hard turn with the drives tucked under.....the step on only rumors was added by Bobby Moore I am pretty sure but Chris Merrill did own the boat at one time I believe!!!!!

[Ratickle]

Where the heck you been bud?

Was White Lightning built out west? In Seattle or something?

[Sean Stinson]

Yes White Lightning was built out west in Washington State by a guy named Steve Radovich or something very similar to that
name

[Ratickle]

Stinson, do you know the history on Octavia?????

[Sean Stinson]

Yes I do know the history bro

[Geronimo36]

The Thad Allen Apache is the Pantera 41, they added their own step design to the Thad Allen Apache design.

Chief is based on the 41' with a step design using the 36' deck design.

West Coast is McManus. Thad Allen lost the Apache rights in a lawsuit many many hears ago and now McManus owns the original Apache rights. He also took ownership of the 36' hull mold but there is no longer a 36' deck mold.

Most of the info is posted in various threads over the years on OSO.

[C35]

t allen didnt lose anything. he nevr had it. he got hosed by the guy that sold him a name he didn't own. dip$hit allen spent big $$ building molds before he had the name. too bad- i alwys wondered why he didnt just build it with a diff name. he just walked away

[Geronimo36]

Lost it, got hosed, smoked too much crack.... depends who you talk too...:seeya:

[Ratickle]

Now that's some stuff to talk about.....:sifone:

[C35]

Lost it, got hosed, smoked too much crack.... depends who you talk too...:seeya:

isnt he the dude that had to buy his own lambo back from the pd after they chased him home?

[Geronimo36]

CS, I'm not sure.

[Ratickle]

I'll see what I can find out. May make a great Joe Offshore story.....

[Sean Stinson]

Now, as for what I believe I know in addition to the above.....

I think it's confusing a little because Bobby isn't filling in all the blanks in that letter. Hopefully this will help, (and is close to accurate), fill in those blanks.

Here goes..................:)

Bobby bought the original molds from Don Aronow and began producing the Apache 41. No boats had been pulled from that tooling prior to that purchase. Under Bobby and Ben Kramer, Apache built race and pleasure versions of the boat. Each one was different like custom boats all typically are. Not only could you get it any way you wanted, you could get any weight (within reason) you wanted.

If you wanted it really fast, you could get a light layup and a paper thin deck, etc. Also, "back then", production was a little different. On a standard layup a pleasure Apache will have some variance in weight, maybe as much as a thousand pounds or so, due to more or less resin and cloth going in various places. The standard Apache hull is laid up like the original Cigarette's. They're made to last, that's why so many people like to call them "resin buckets". Apache and Cigarette built boats like the Amish build barns. Not so much what we call "High Tech" now, but what they knew they wouldn't break from decades of experience. Unlike today's boats, they were built old-school. Resin and cloth, and lots of it. No composites, no balsa or foam cores, no carbon, no honeycombs.

As far as "different 41's", you have the original "Saccenti built" boats and then the Apaches built once Mark McManus took over the company. McManus then built a boat called the Comanche 42 which Bob references. Believe it or not they were even heavier than the 41's. Great ride but not all that highly regarded in the Apache community. The short of it is that Apache really doesn't build boats and hasn't for some time. They do alot of restorations.

A few years back a money guy by the name of Thad Allen thought he could just begin building boats under the name Apache. He thought he could litigate and get the name. While that was going on he went ahead and built some very fancy CNC molds and set up shop. Long story that I know very little of, but he lost in court and shut everything down. Those molds eventally ended up in the hands of Pantera who has produced a couple boats from them.

Another company called Saber got ahold of of some 41 molds and began producing a 41. Nice boat and pretty well built up here. They also have the original 47 molds but have built none, (I've heard rumors one is in the works now). This is the company Bob references as the "Ohio company" but they're really here in Michigan. If anyone picked up where Bob left off, it's probably Saber.

There are some "splashed" molds of the 41 floating around but I don't believe anyone has produced a boat from them. An apache copy was built a few years back. Boat was called White Lightning. It was a custom one-off and built by someone not all that well known. Very nicely built, but there's only one and it's not an Apache.

So as far as different versions-

Saccenti built 41(few of them)

McManus built 41(most of them)

McManus built 42 Comanche (not an Apache but based on the 41, not sure how many)

Saber built 41 (not an Apache but from the molds. I see them up here all the time as friends have a couple of them)

Thad A. built 41 Apache (none made)

41 Pantera (nothing really Apache about it other than the name connection)

Various copies and splashes (unknown, White Lightning is the best known)

So there really aren't that many options in a real Apache 41. It comes down to the various full-stagger ex-raceboats and in pleasure boats the side-by-sides or the short-stagger boats. Then the various splashes and "tributes".





Ladies and Gentlemen, I hope this is really close. I'm waiting........:lurk5:

Bro I don't feel like filling in the blanks tonight but buddy I will help you cross the T's and dot the I's

[Ratickle]

We'll chat Sean. Very soon.....