Brovo X drive,needs beefing up

[Donskihp]

I'm running a supperchsrged 496 HO with CMI sport tubes, giving me aproximately 700 hp. My drive is a stock Brovo X drive. I know I'm pushing it way past its limits. I've been told that the shafts are the same as the XR drive, but the gears are smaller. My question is, can I go to say, Imco and replace the stock gears with better gears?

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

IMCO has an extreme drive that will bolt on. Not sure about using their parts in a merc housing.

[Donskihp]

Yea, I'm thinking of a definate outdrive upgrade, however I was thing of a gear change as a tempory solution, until I do the change
Don

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

It is my opinion you do all or nothing. There have been a number of changes in the drives over the years. What serial group is your drive? The newer ones have shims in the upper the early do not. There are different u joint assemblies and a bigger prop shaft. Not sure what just a gear change really does for you.

Again this is my opinion and opinions vary.

[Donskihp]

I called Imco today and inquired about my options, and their comment was for me to use my gimble and lower and use the Imco extreme upper
Don

[Uncle Dave]

You can Imco Sc, or Teague platinum- same deal.
Better housings towers, bearings and shafts and caps in these 2- but The gears are the same merc gears - same stuff.

The next step is to an Imco SCX this uses different bigger gears and is definitely beefier.

How big and heavy is your boat, and are you running on the ocean?

Dave

[DAREDEVIL]

You can Imco Sc, or Teague platinum- same deal.
Better housings towers, bearings and shafts and caps in these 2- but The gears are the same merc gears - same stuff.

The next step is to an Imco SCX this uses different bigger gears and is definitely beefier.

How big and heavy is your boat, and are you running on the ocean?

Dave

I thought the IMCO Sc gears are bigger then the merc ??? :confused:

[Donskihp]

I'M running a 2005 Donzi 26zx with a whipple Suppercharged 496 HO and CMI Sport tubes. I should be producing aproximatley 714 hp. I live on the Chesapeake bay, and thats where most of my running is done. My boat is 5800 lbs.
Dom

[DAREDEVIL]

I'M running a 2005 Donzi 26zx with a whipple Suppercharged 496 HO and CMI Sport tubes. I should be producing aproximatley 714 hp. I live on the Chesapeake bay, and thats where most of my running is done. My boat is 5800 lbs.
Dom

Ok, with 700+ HP..i would recomend a Arneson conversion or NXT !!!!!!

Or one of the bigger IMCO's

[Donskihp]

NXT drive is not an option, because of the transmission,I have no room to move the engine forward. Arneson drive will work but its about 24K, a little pricey considering the economic slum weve been in.

[Uncle Dave]

You and I share a similar sized performance envelope. My rig is

28.8 with an 8ft beam (called a 2750 )
Ilmor 710 6300RPM
About 5500Lb loaded the way I have it.
Im using a teague platinum XR and a mercury ITS steering system

100% ocean running.

After wearing out a B1XR in 54 hours I decided the only viable upgrade for me is an SCX Upper, Ill try that and then buy the lower if I need to.

Arnesons are awesome, but I have not seen one n a small v yet.
Big v's yes.

Even if you had room for a tran the NXT is not the way to go on a single engine boat (at least running cleavers)


Uncle Dave

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

You can Imco Sc, or Teague platinum- same deal.
Better housings towers, bearings and shafts and caps in these 2- but The gears are the same merc gears - same stuff.

The next step is to an Imco SCX this uses different bigger gears and is definitely beefier.

How big and heavy is your boat, and are you running on the ocean?

Dave

Good info.. The gears work best when the stay where located. The heavier parts around the gears help them live longer.

[Uncle Dave]

I thought the IMCO Sc gears are bigger then the merc ??? :confused:


No the SC uses beefed up components like shafts etc,top caps etc- but is stuck with Merc gears.

Its superior to a Bravo because of all these tweaks, but the gears are the same - It, and a Teague Platinum drive are very close in componentry

The SCX is the big boy with the Non Merc gearset. Much heavier duty.
The SCT is the SCX, but without a cone clutch designed for a transmission.


UD

[Ratickle]

No the SC uses beefed up components like shafts etc,top caps etc- but is stuck with Merc gears.

Its superior to a Bravo because of all these tweaks, but the gears are the sameIt and a Teague Platinum drive are very close in componentry

The SCX is the big boy with the Non Merc gearset. Much heavier duty.
The SCT is the SCX, but without a cone clutch designed for a transmission.


UD

Thanks for all your input. Nice to have guys willing to assist.

[DAREDEVIL]

No the SC uses beefed up components like shafts etc,top caps etc- but is stuck with Merc gears.

Its superior to a Bravo because of all these tweaks, but the gears are the same - It, and a Teague Platinum drive are very close in componentry

The SCX is the big boy with the Non Merc gearset. Much heavier duty.
The SCT is the SCX, but without a cone clutch designed for a transmission.


UD

good info, thanks!!!:cheers2:

[Uncle Dave]

Thanks guys.

Ill let you guys know how it stands up to 1000HP pretty soon.

Im fairly certain Ill be switching over to this upper drive soon. Im going to stick with the regular Imco lower vs the SCX lower as Ive "only" got 700 ponies.

Heres my rig.




Uncle Dave

[Donskihp]

Thanks for the info, I'm thinking the IMCO upper is the way to go. I haven't check out Teagues Platinum, I'll have to do that Don

[Uncle Dave]

Thanks for the info, I'm thinking the IMCO upper is the way to go. I haven't check out Teagues Platinum, I'll have to do that Don

No problem- Im a "giver" (smile)

This is what happens to stock bravo gears after a season in my rig.

On the gear you can see a hard wear line and pitting.
On the shaft a bearing wore and shifted (pretty sure thats what teh guy said)
and caused the shaft to wear substantially.

I caught this in time- you may not be so lucky- go SCX.


Uncle Dave

[Donskihp]

What were the symptions that clued you to you failure?

[Uncle Dave]

What were the symptions that clued you to you failure?

Shavings on the magnets.


UD

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

When I raced Bravo's the drives were disassembled and inspected every race.

[DAREDEVIL]

I say go ARNESON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cheers2:

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

The IMCO raced all year last season without a problem or a teardown.

[DAREDEVIL]

The IMCO raced all year last season without a problem or a teardown.

I know your in the IMCO boat, but the arneson is way better and can handle way more abuse ,,no matter what size boat.
If Rik sets it up , it will run as long as the rigger listens to him !!!

I agree, that the imco is a good drive but not for 700 + HP !!!!!
No matter what they claim.

Sorry

[Uncle Dave]

I know your in the IMCO boat, but the arneson is way better and can handle way more abuse ,,no matter what size boat.
If Rik sets it up , it will run as long as the rigger listens to him !!!

I agree, that the imco is a good drive but not for 700 + HP !!!!!
No matter what they claim.

Sorry

The arneson is indeed cool.
Are there a few smaller (under 30ft ) single engine v's with Arnesons?
I would be interested in seeing them.



UD

[DAREDEVIL]

The arneson is indeed cool.
Are there a few smaller (under 30ft ) single engine v's with Arnesons?
I would be interested in seeing them.



UD

There is /was an old 30 foot velocity with twin arneson....so i don't see why a 26-30 could not run with a single !?

Rik, i bet has some more info on that !:cheers2:

[Donskihp]

Good to Know Thanks! Don

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

DD not for nothing. This thread is about beefing up a bravo. His question wasn't should I re rig my boat, add a transmission, and change everything from the flywheel back.

[Uncle Dave]

There is /was an old 30 foot velocity with twin arneson....so i don't see why a 26-30 could not run with a single !?

Rik, i bet has some more info on that !:cheers2:


Id like to see some picts of small single engine v's running an Arneson.

Single v's running surface piercing apps can have strange handling characteristics. Twins no problem.

I think that certain ASD's can run standard bravo style props, which may mitigate this issue somewhat but not fully.

I dont think anyone can logically argue that in a twin app its not a great way to go.


UD

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I agree.

I have yet to see a single worth talking about. If they worked someone would be racing one.

[DAREDEVIL]

I agree.

I have yet to see a single worth talking about. If they worked someone would be racing one.

Why do u always really think u know everything...
I don't get it, the man does not need to rerig the boat , the arneson convertion fits 100% since the tranny is in the conversion box and bolts up to the stock bravo transom cut out !!!!!

Also i bet there are some smaller boats with that conversion ,,,Rik will chime in !!!!!!!!!!

Beefing up a bravo is in my opinon about getting a stronger drive that fits the transom and holds up to 700 + HP !!!!!!

NO ???:leaving:

And by the way Jim, u have yet to see a lot of things that changed since u worked for fountain or been merc active !!!!! IMO
Sorry

And why is it that u always have to argue with me ???
Let the man decide what he wants .....mhhhhhhh

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I don't claim to know everything.. Just show me one that works as a single.

I like them for twins.

[DAREDEVIL]

I don't claim to know everything.. Just show me one that works as a single.

I like them for twins.

If a bravo works, why wouldn't an arneson CONVERSION work,,,its called CONVERSION !!!!!!!!!

I will find u one ,,let me search .

[DAREDEVIL]

I purchased a 1981 Carrera 21 ft. Elite about ten years ago with a bbc and an Arneson ASD6 drive. I'm a swimming pool contractor and had been working on Arneson pool cleaners for years so when the boat came up for sale I had to have it. I still have the boat and the boat has had several motors but the drive has never been apart. A great package and you get the Arneson rooster tail. Your project sounds great, good luck. Doug

This is a quote from ......u know where.

[DAREDEVIL]

here is an other....


04-24-2007, 09:35 PM #13
Rik
arneson-industries.com
Platinum Member




Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 1,502 Quote:
Originally Posted by 920stjb
I worked on the original 22' that Steve put an Arneson in/on.
I am also the one that got to fill in the transom for the SS/M 3 to replace it. DON'T DO IT!!! There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Arneson Drive, it just didn't work on the 22'er. In my time there, he never tried one again, I have no idea why.
Why don't you call Velocity and talk to Steve personally? He's very approachable and a really nice person.
Tell him Steve Bartus said to call him and I said "Hi" to him and family. Also tell him I said to quit that wussy golfing and get into a manly pursuit, like racing boats or something.
Call him, you can only benefit from it.


How long ago was this?

If they, and I know they didn't, use our new ASD6 Kit the engine would have to be mounted too far forward for the CG of a small boat.

The only issue with such a small boat is balance and the engine placement is where the problem is.

I have 28' Velocity with the Arneson Kit and it hadles fine, docks easy, gets on plane easy and has good bow lift.

22 with to forward cg??

[DAREDEVIL]

An other post..........

arneson-industries.com
Platinum Member




Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 1,502 Quote:
Originally Posted by Padraig
Rik, how about more info on your 280 with arneson drive. what engine/hp etc. What gains if any did you see and what is a typical price for this type of conversion?

Thanks,

I think the boat is about 3 yrs old.

28' with a 1000-1200 hp engine

They're trying to get it to the Desert Storm Poker Run this weekend.

Short water test, gets on plane better than the Bravo customer says, easier to steer, and better acceleration. Ran up to 95 and no handling issues with great ride attitude he says.

No issues docking.

AI#7M Kit

Running a Hering 5 blade propeller. Don't know the specifics on it but I think it is a 32P. Customer thinks its too small.

Will know more after they tow for 13 hrs to get to Havasu.

This customer has EXPLODED everything off the back of the boat prior to this. BMAX, IMCO, TEAGUE, MAX Machine, etc.

Goal is 105-110.

[DAREDEVIL]

Now i will find u some pictures !!!!!!! LOL

[DAREDEVIL]

A guy that did it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Registered


Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 9 I own the 280 rik is talking about.
it is a stock bottom and still retains the notch transom.the install was pretty simple and i can t say enough about rik.evertime i had a question, or needed a part,it was there.
performance is pretty awsome . the boat jumps on plane like a rocket. and so far the mid and up into mid 90 s is great. also the smooth water porpus is gone completly. I have not yet gone wide open only because this is an injected motor and did not have time to remap before my computer battery died.
I did call steve , he said it would not work. But after every thing else failed , I took the chance. Just like you guys i heard all this stuff , and now after runnig the boat i will say it is all b.s. If i get time to get the mapping done by mid day fri, I ll be on my way to the desert storm.

[Uncle Dave]

Can you post the links so I can go see some picts?

Id like to read up on the threads.

UD

[Uncle Dave]

Ill poke around the other three sites.

I dont see squat here.


UD

[Rik]

I agree.

I have yet to see a single worth talking about. If they worked someone would be racing one.

Jim, you of all people know that one can race anything they want as long as it has a Mercury out drive on it. It's been this way for over 10 years so please don't use that worn out expression.

The service guys make more $$ on Bravo's than any other out drive made. I was just in Havasu and if there was one there was ten people telling me they make far to much $$ on Bravos to want to install a drive that does not break. Then I pointed out to them put their best interest far far ahead of their customers and they said it's all about $$ in their pocket.

Now back to this thread on Bravo's not Arnesons :D

[DAREDEVIL]

Wow, Rik......even i did not know its that many small ones ..lol


Thanks for chiming in !!!!!! :cheers2:

Scott

[Uncle Dave]

Any other stepped hulls than the u39 boat?




UD

[DAREDEVIL]

Any other stepped hulls than the u39 boat?




UD


Because of the setback and high X,,,shouldn't it run better with a stepped hull ??

Just asking .

But i bet Rik has the answer we need !!!!!!!!!!!

[Uncle Dave]

Because of the setback and high X,,,shouldn't it run better with a stepped hull ??

Just asking .

But i bet Rik has the answer we need !!!!!!!!!!!




I would think it would-simply based on less parasitic loss-
-- but I dont really know.

I cant find a current switchover thats "like" my setup.

Ill read up on the velocity in the meantime.

UD

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Jim, you of all people know that one can race anything they want as long as it has a Mercury out drive on it. It's been this way for over 10 years so please don't use that worn out expression.



Rik, I stand corrected. I hope they make their way east.

Times are changing with racing and Mercury's stranglehold. Get some out there in OPA or P1usa.

[Rik]

Rik, I stand corrected. I hope they make their way east.

Times are changing with racing and Mercury's stranglehold. Get some out there in OPA or P1usa.

Will there be a P1 USA? What will be their catch?

I don't believe anyone is building new boats at this time??

[DAREDEVIL]

Will there be a P1 USA? What will be their catch?

I don't believe anyone is building new boats at this time??

Rik, as far as i know its coming together..but thats all i heard !:sifone:

[Donskihp]

Ok! What do you all think of Teagues Platinum drives? Teagues web site showes his Platinum upper for about $5700. And showes it can handle up to 900hp. This would solve my stress problem at least fot this summer. I'm a Platinum Powerboat member,so I can get a substancial discount on it. I have been admiring the Arnson drives for quite some time, but I'm not about to try a conversion at the begining of summer. I know how simple conversions go, and they never end up as simple as they make it out to be. Anybody have any experience with Teagues platinum outdrives? Don

[DAREDEVIL]

Ok! What do you all think of Teagues Platinum drives? Teagues web site showes his Platinum upper for about $5700. And showes it can handle up to 900hp. This would solve my stress problem at least fot this summer. I'm a Platinum Powerboat member,so I can get a substancial discount on it. I have been admiring the Arnson drives for quite some time, but I'm not about to try a conversion at the begining of summer. I know how simple conversions go, and they never end up as simple as they make it out to be. Anybody have any experience with Teagues platinum outdrives? Don

never had one..knowing Bob T. i think he builds good products...but 900HP ???????? i don't know....:rolleyes:

About the conversion kit from arneson...1 day !! DONE !

[Donskihp]

Do you have experence doing the conversion? My daughter has a jeep wrangler 4 cyl,and everyone told me it was an easy conversion to make it a 6 cyl. Well I did it and nothing was as told,from transmission to motor mounts ,it all took costom fabrication.I was lucky that I had sa shop and all the equipment to do the job. Don

[DAREDEVIL]

Do you have experence doing the conversion? My daughter has a jeep wrangler 4 cyl,and everyone told me it was an easy conversion to make it a 6 cyl. Well I did it and nothing was as told,from transmission to motor mounts ,it all took costom fabrication.I was lucky that I had sa shop and all the equipment to do the job. Don

Yes, i helped some people do it .

Its a bolt on deal, drive off, engine out...change coupler bellhousing , gimbal off...arneson gimbal on, steering on ,tranny on engine , engine in, drive on, prop on..done !
with forklift and tools 2 people 8 hours !!!!!!! :cheers2:

PS. boat already had hydraulic steering ,, if not..then a little longer.

[Donskihp]

I have twin Latham steering cylinders, do u know if they would have to be relocated, I'm not a big fan of filling transome holes. Don

[DAREDEVIL]

The rams on the conversion kit are on the box..so no re locating..just filling or blocking .
The reason i said it makes it easyer is the hoses and helm is already there.

Look in the picture u can see what i mean.

U can sell your cylinders, drive, gimbal , bellhousing and such..and recope some funding.:cheers2:

[Uncle Dave]

Ok! What do you all think of Teagues Platinum drives? Teagues web site showes his Platinum upper for about $5700. And showes it can handle up to 900hp. This would solve my stress problem at least fot this summer. I'm a Platinum Powerboat member,so I can get a substancial discount on it. I have been admiring the Arnson drives for quite some time, but I'm not about to try a conversion at the begining of summer. I know how simple conversions go, and they never end up as simple as they make it out to be. Anybody have any experience with Teagues platinum outdrives? Don

I have a Teague Platinum upper with an Imco lower.
Its a high quality product, and Bob Teague stands by his warranties.

- but 900HP on a lake- maybe. On the ocean- no way.
Its basically the same as an Imco SC.

I just did a rebuild at 54 hours.
I "hit it" with an Ilmor 710 and a 5500lb boat 100% ocean running.


Uncle Dave

[John P]

I like the Bmax.

[Donskihp]

Iv'e seen adds for the Bmax, but never really gave it much attention. Does it hook up the same as the Brovo. What is it rated for,what kind price tag comes with it? Don

[Uncle Dave]

Seen lots of good AND bad press about the Bmax, and I like to know more about it. Somewhere here on OSO there is a great pict with three of them across the back of a rig all blown bad.....


At the same time.... I've been using Imco stuff for 20 years and have multitudes of quality parts form that company in both my boats.
I trust Imco, and it looks like the SCX has tons of momentum at the moment.


Uncle Dave

[John P]

Iv'e seen adds for the Bmax, but never really gave it much attention. Does it hook up the same as the Brovo. What is it rated for,what kind price tag comes with it? Don

Yes it hooks up like a bravo, they say 900 hp but it all hinges on the weight of the boat as to how much it will take. I have 800's in my Black Thunder and the uppers had 300 hrs on them when I changed out the gears. The lowers are just the same as a XR with a larger vertical shaft but still use Merc lower gears as do most of the drives out there. I have heard talk of maybe a company up north making a new lower gear set to fit the Bravo lower that will hold more power. I also know that Bmax is being sold and the new owners are going to revamp the drive with some billet parts so new things on the horizon soon.

[DAREDEVIL]

Yes it hooks up like a bravo, they say 900 hp but it all hinges on the weight of the boat as to how much it will take. I have 800's in my Black Thunder and the uppers had 300 hrs on them when I changed out the gears. The lowers are just the same as a XR with a larger vertical shaft but still use Merc lower gears as do most of the drives out there. I have heard talk of maybe a company up north making a new lower gear set to fit the Bravo lower that will hold more power. I also know that Bmax is being sold and the new owners are going to revamp the drive with some billet parts so new things on the horizon soon.

Do the lowers still fall off ????? :eek:

They have so much vibration from the large upper gears that they strip the studs hlding the lower and just fall off !!

And 900 HP ..NO WAY, a merc #5 is rated @ 750 !!!!!:confused:

[John P]

If you had one with vibration there must have been something wrong inside I have 3 and no vibration at all.
As far as the hp rating is concerned it depends on the weight of the boat like any drive would be. You would not put a Alpha on a 42 Fountain.
My 46 BT has 820 hp x 3 and they hold up very well.

[Donskihp]

Pretty much made up my mind between Imco or Teague Platinum

[Boatally Insane]

Found some interesting reading on the subject.....

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/drives-lower-units/193630-imco-vs-teague-drives.html


Doug

[Donskihp]

Wow! thanks for that link, I had already pretty much made up my mind to go Teague. But that pretty much closes the door on which to go with. I'm really supprised, because I was thinking that the imco was the stronger one. With Teagues I'll be able to through any thing at them, for I,m only 714hp and hitting about 85mph. Don

[CRC]

An Arneson on a small V? This one comes to mind: :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jKhIXJ0fME

My Bravo X lasted 7 hours after my repower to the 525 and my boat is much smaller. The XR w/Imco shorty has held up so far. You are running on borrowed time! Keep your towing insurance paid up:willy_nilly:.

[LAKE EFFECT]

With Procharged 509's I have self educated myself on the Bravo drive. Everybody makes them out to be so difficult to work on, and Teague and the others use special components. They are a very simple drive. The reason why some hold up and some dont is totally in the setup.

Teague uses the Merc case, gears, and clutch on their uppers. There are some aftermarket cases around, but not gears and clutches.

The Bravo X should have the thicker floored gear(helical),were as the XR uses straight cut gears(the X helicals are almost as strong), same clutch as the XR, same clutch shaft(#2 on the top), and same clutch shaft bearings. Im not sure if the X uses the metal caged gear floor bearing that the XR uses, or if there using the plastic cages from the reg Bravo.

Anyway, I've been researching and upgrading my Bravo's(early IMCO SC's at first,now Merc XR's)for 5 years, with some good success. Here is a list of some things to do that will help keep a Bravo alive behind some HP.

Upper: X housing with a steel tower, good top cap(I have Max Macines w/7/16 studs), X gears/XR'swould be better, #2 merc clutch shaft, Teagues and Max Machines are stronger, hard shimmed pinion, full roller lower clutch shaft bearing(not the stock caged bearing). This is what you will get with the Teague upper, less then 1/2 $ if you do it yourself. There are a couple of bearing changes that can be made that I know Max Machine does, not sure about Teague.

Lower: good vertical shaft(with a lower nut not bolt), XR prop shaft and carrier, and hard shim the bullit(instead of using the crush ring). Have to use Merc gears(no aftermarket choices). You can buy better aftermaket shafts though. all the stock bearings in the lower are fine.

HP transom assembly with hydraulic steering.

Sorry for the rant. The Bravo is small and prone to failure, but its efficient and fast, and with the right parts and setup you at least get a 60/40 change of making it thru the summer without a rebuild.

LE

[Donskihp]

Interesting, I'll probably change drives this summer, right now i've been trying to dial things in with BBlades