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Seafordguy
04-10-2010, 09:23 AM
Fixxxer - this is directed at you!!

I cleaned and reinstalled the IPR. The first time I did it I put the small needle in the OPPOSITE of the way it is shown in this pdf. The truck ran without hesitation but seemed a little down on power and pedal response.

So I pulled it back out and put the little tiny needle in the CORRECT way (ie what is shown in the pdf.). The truck positively would NOT start, blow smoke or anything.

I pulled it back off this morning, and put the needle back in the opposite way of what we see in the pdf - truck started right up, idles great, doesn't hesitate, but is down on power and pedal pressure - which I understand since it is probably not getting the correct inputs for fuel delivery.

Should I replace this IPR all together? I know FORD doesn't service these items and you might not know, but what is your take?

P.S. - it wasn't the IDM.

fixxxer22
04-11-2010, 09:57 PM
I am confused about the IPR, are you removing this from the 2 wire controller located on the high pressure pump? the pdf file is not attached. could you check again and send mw what you were going by?

Seafordguy
04-12-2010, 06:29 PM
Here is the PDF. The little tiny needle I am talking about is on the middle right picture at the bottom of the pdf....

fixxxer22
04-12-2010, 10:15 PM
I have never serviced the valve itself. I cant even find any procedure in the workshop manuals even describing the breakdown of the actual valve. I understand someone has developed a way to mess with it but i feel that it is not a needed repair. i have never replaced a ipr valve on a 7.3 i have replaced many ipr solenoids but not valves. Usually the only time i deal with an ipr is when the nut chatters off the back of one and they act like they need a few injectors. they have a service kit for a new nut and washer.

I would replace the valve first if you can get it sperate from the solenoid (electromagnet) i would also get a new nut and washer kit.

Seafordguy
04-12-2010, 10:22 PM
I have never serviced the valve itself. I cant even find any procedure in the workshop manuals even describing the breakdown of the actual valve. I understand someone has developed a way to mess with it but i feel that it is not a needed repair. i have never replaced a ipr valve on a 7.3 i have replaced many ipr solenoids but not valves. Usually the only time i deal with an ipr is when the nut chatters off the back of one and they act like they need a few injectors. they have a service kit for a new nut and washer.

I would replace the valve first if you can get it sperate from the solenoid (electromagnet) i would also get a new nut and washer kit.

Guy on Ebay had one for 120 bucks shipped to the house so I figure "what the hell". I couldn't find the solenoid separate from the whole thing so I just bought the whole thing. Hopefully it fixes the problem.

Seafordguy
04-16-2010, 10:50 PM
I am frustrated - that didn't fix it either.

I drove it all day with that needle in backwards with the same result - no hesitation, but no response and slightly less power, and when I got home and put the new valve in it didn't start at all again. It came with the solenoid wrapped around the valve so the whole assembly is new. Either way, no luck.

fixxxer22
04-17-2010, 08:53 AM
hmmm. remove the4 plug from the top of the high pressure pump resivoir. it is the rectangle comming upward that the high pressure pump is hooked to. it is dead center front and top of the engine. the plug is off to one side and is (i believe) a 6mm allen head. make sure the resivoir is full of oil. let me know what u find.

Seafordguy
04-17-2010, 11:51 AM
hmmm. remove the4 plug from the top of the high pressure pump resivoir. it is the rectangle comming upward that the high pressure pump is hooked to. it is dead center front and top of the engine. the plug is off to one side and is (i believe) a 6mm allen head. make sure the resivoir is full of oil. let me know what u find.

Yeah - I have checked the level in it. It is full - just to be sure I topped it off, but it was a mute point.

What role does the PCM play in this? (Not the IDM)

fixxxer22
04-17-2010, 12:31 PM
PCM interprets the pressure from the ICP sensor. It then regulates the oil pressure using the IPR. The pump is always running at 100% the IPR just dumps off oil pressure to what the PCM wants to have for ICP at that time.

fixxxer22
04-17-2010, 12:32 PM
Do you still have your old ICP Sensor?

fixxxer22
04-17-2010, 12:50 PM
It is just hard to continue diag without an ids. it just seems like either the pcm is not getting the input from the icp to fire the injecotrs and by possibly turning the needle around you are running at maxium pressure and not bleeding it off. the sensor may have bias or the pump is not putting out enough high pressure oil anymore. try your old icp sensor with the ipr in the correct way. see if it runs then. i have seen new icp sensors with bias in them right out of the box.

Seafordguy
04-17-2010, 02:16 PM
It is just hard to continue diag without an ids. it just seems like either the pcm is not getting the input from the icp to fire the injecotrs and by possibly turning the needle around you are running at maxium pressure and not bleeding it off. the sensor may have bias or the pump is not putting out enough high pressure oil anymore. try your old icp sensor with the ipr in the correct way. see if it runs then. i have seen new icp sensors with bias in them right out of the box.

This is what I was wondering - although I couldn't say it as technically. It seems like I am possibly tricking the PCM into thinking the oil pressure is higher by having the needle in backwards and it starts.

Just swapped ICP sensors with no success.

I pulled the PCM and noticed it has some Banks Ottomind chip in it. I was unaware of that....

Does it seem unlikely that the HPOP is faulty considering it will run fine with that valve in backwards?

fixxxer22
04-17-2010, 02:35 PM
Turn the igntion off and remove the chip. i have seen the stacked chip overheat and ruin over 20 pcms. wsee if there is any change. can you get ahold of scanner to view a datastream? we want to look at VREF and see what is happening. Or do you have a digital good multimeter?

Seafordguy
04-17-2010, 04:09 PM
Turn the igntion off and remove the chip. i have seen the stacked chip overheat and ruin over 20 pcms. wsee if there is any change. can you get ahold of scanner to view a datastream? we want to look at VREF and see what is happening. Or do you have a digital good multimeter?

Removed Chip - no difference.

I have been trying to locate someone close by with a scanner to view data stream but haven't had any luck.

I have a good multimeter though....

fixxxer22
04-17-2010, 04:34 PM
Unhook the icp sensor and use the multimeter. turn the key to run and check on a voltage scale of 20 dcv (unless it is self ranging ) check between the balck and gray with red stripe wire. should be 4.98-5.01v. any other reading will mess up the entire engine control system. let me know what u find. we are looking at the 5v refrence system. the ground is controlled by the pcm so be sure to use the ground at the connector harness side black. that is also the signal return line.

Seafordguy
04-17-2010, 06:24 PM
Unhook the icp sensor and use the multimeter. turn the key to run and check on a voltage scale of 20 dcv (unless it is self ranging ) check between the balck and gray with red stripe wire. should be 4.98-5.01v. any other reading will mess up the entire engine control system. let me know what u find. we are looking at the 5v refrence system. the ground is controlled by the pcm so be sure to use the ground at the connector harness side black. that is also the signal return line.


4.97 - no kidding....

fixxxer22
04-17-2010, 08:25 PM
that is in spec... ok. hmmmm... i need to ponder on... something...

Seafordguy
04-18-2010, 02:16 PM
Is it unreasonabe to think that the PCM is incorrectly bleeding off all the oil pressure when the IPR is in the correct way and preventing it from starting but when the needle valve in the IPR is in incorrectly it is forcing pressure and causing it to start/run??

fixxxer22
04-18-2010, 05:01 PM
I would not suspect a pcm at this point. i woiuld not go and buy one. you could try and swap yours out with a buddies and see what happens. i usually see the vref going haywire on the trucks with the stacked chips when the pcm overheats. im gonna talk with my other diesel buddy on monday.... see what he thinks.

Seafordguy
04-18-2010, 05:41 PM
I would not suspect a pcm at this point. i woiuld not go and buy one. you could try and swap yours out with a buddies and see what happens. i usually see the vref going haywire on the trucks with the stacked chips when the pcm overheats. im gonna talk with my other diesel buddy on monday.... see what he thinks.

Thanks Fixxxer - If there is a positive here it is that I have learned alot about the truck...

fixxxer22
04-18-2010, 05:44 PM
:cheers2:That is a small silver lining:cheers2:

fixxxer22
04-20-2010, 11:50 AM
well we are both thinking that it may be a bad high pressure pump. or a leak in the high pressure oil system. you could try and make a tool that will adapt to an air hose chuck that goes into the port at the icp sensor and close the ipr and listen for leaks. since the oil rails are integral to the heads i doubt they are leaking. and since the lines aree external then you would see them leaking. you can put the needle back in the ipr and just put 12v to it and that would put the ipr at a 1005 duty cycle. (like putting the needle in backward) it just seems that you are having to put up so much pressure to overcome a leak or a weak pump. i iahve replaced a couple failed pumps on a 7.3 but not many. not saying it is not possible. if you could get your hands on a scanner you could view your icp pressure while cranking. it is obviously too low for the injectors to operate. when you put the needle in the opposite way the pump is running at full bore. also if you cold view icp when the needle is in backward and if it is only putting out 1500psi or so you either have a leak or a bad pump. i just wish i had this thing in my bay right now.

Seafordguy
04-20-2010, 11:52 AM
well we are both thinking that it may be a bad high pressure pump. or a leak in the high pressure oil system. you could try and make a tool that will adapt to an air hose chuck that goes into the port at the icp sensor and close the ipr and listen for leaks. since the oil rails are integral to the heads i doubt they are leaking. and since the lines aree external then you would see them leaking. you can put the needle back in the ipr and just put 12v to it and that would put the ipr at a 1005 duty cycle. (like putting the needle in backward) it just seems that you are having to put up so much pressure to overcome a leak or a weak pump. i iahve replaced a couple failed pumps on a 7.3 but not many. not saying it is not possible. if you could get your hands on a scanner you could view your icp pressure while cranking. it is obviously too low for the injectors to operate. when you put the needle in the opposite way the pump is running at full bore. also if you cold view icp when the needle is in backward and if it is only putting out 1500psi or so you either have a leak or a bad pump. i just wish i had this thing in my bay right now.

I am trying to track down a scanner on thedieselgarage and thedieselstop - I am worried about the HPOP as that sounds like both an expensive job and an unpleasant one.

fixxxer22
04-20-2010, 12:02 PM
the pump is not bad at all. a little tedious but not bad. i cna send you workshop manual directions. all you do is remove the fuel filter housing. the lines to the pump and the bolt through the sproket and the bolts retaining the pump. no biggie..

Seafordguy
04-20-2010, 01:43 PM
the pump is not bad at all. a little tedious but not bad. i cna send you workshop manual directions. all you do is remove the fuel filter housing. the lines to the pump and the bolt through the sproket and the bolts retaining the pump. no biggie..

I was just looking online. It doesn't look bad at all - couple hours max. My Haynes Manual says I have to remove the turbo but I don't see how that could be the case at all.

A guy here at our work (who I have never met but owns a PSD) says he has a scanner that streams data. I will get it tomorrow and see if I have any luck on Wednesday night. There is an HPOP on Ebay right for 99 bucks with no bids so hopefully I could still make that auction deadline.

fixxxer22
04-20-2010, 04:58 PM
yeah, there is no need at all to remove the turbo. i have replaced a couple pumps but i have re-sealed many. its not bad at all.

fixxxer22
04-26-2010, 04:20 PM
Any luck? or updates. How is it going?

Seafordguy
04-27-2010, 06:04 PM
The old HPOP is torn out and the replacement is in Laurel MD according to UPS Quantum View. Will be here tomorrow mid-day and I am going to put it on tomorrow.

Anything I should be aware of??

I couldn't believe the EBP Sensor fitting that was in the Exhaust Manifold came out. It was a northern truck for a while so you can imagine what kind of rust was built up on it.

fixxxer22
04-27-2010, 09:31 PM
you can just bend the fitting a little to get to the high pressure pump gear retaining bolt. but you are doing it by the book and that is the best way to do things the first time around. look at the ep sensor tube bung in the manifold. make sure the threads are there. you can get a new nipple next day from a ford dealer if needed. i have had them all come off but some take the threads with.

just fill the high pressure pump resivoir with new clean oil so its first compressing of any oil is new and clean. be sure to replace the gasket between the pump and resivoir. I have one i can give you and air you if needed. other than that it is pretty straight foreward. be sure to torque the bolt on the pump gear. have an assistant hold the crank if you dont find a compression stroke strong enough to get the wrench to click. i usuually roll them over with the torque wrench until i hit a compression stroke on a cylinder. then it is usually enough to hold the gear while i am torquing the bolt.

Seafordguy
04-28-2010, 07:08 AM
you can just bend the fitting a little to get to the high pressure pump gear retaining bolt. but you are doing it by the book and that is the best way to do things the first time around. look at the ep sensor tube bung in the manifold. make sure the threads are there. you can get a new nipple next day from a ford dealer if needed. i have had them all come off but some take the threads with.

just fill the high pressure pump resivoir with new clean oil so its first compressing of any oil is new and clean. be sure to replace the gasket between the pump and resivoir. I have one i can give you and air you if needed. other than that it is pretty straight foreward. be sure to torque the bolt on the pump gear. have an assistant hold the crank if you dont find a compression stroke strong enough to get the wrench to click. i usuually roll them over with the torque wrench until i hit a compression stroke on a cylinder. then it is usually enough to hold the gear while i am torquing the bolt.

10-4 - Do you know the torque amount for the Gear Bolt off the top of your head?

If not hopefully my Haynes manual will have it.

fixxxer22
04-28-2010, 11:25 AM
95 Ft/Lb on the gear bolt.

Seafordguy
04-28-2010, 06:02 PM
FUUUCCCKKKKK I broke the damn fitting on the pressure regulator coming off the driver's side of the fuel bowl. I cranked the truck twice, and fuel went everywhere and then I realized I hadn't tightened the fitting down. Went back to tighten it up and "snap".

Truck didn't start on those two cranks but I can't say for sure it isn't fixed until I get this pressure regulator fixed

Just found this.

http://www.guzzle7pt3.com/fbowl.php

Looks like they are a weak spot and aren't under heavy pressure.

fixxxer22
04-29-2010, 12:32 PM
ok, well get that fixed but dont throw your hands up right away. it will take some extended cranking to prime the high pressure pump. also it will take a few key cycles to prime the fuel system since it has been drained and opened. cycle the key from off to run 6 times for 30 seconds before attempting to start to fully prime the fuel side of the system.

Seafordguy
04-29-2010, 12:38 PM
Yeah - I started thinking about it last night and the 2 times I cranked it probably wouldn't have mattered because most likely almost NONE of the fuel was getting through the filter - it was much easier to just spew out the fitting which wasn't tightened down.

I'm not pessimistic YET.

Seafordguy
04-29-2010, 09:13 PM
Nope - no success.

Cranked it to on about 5 times. Cranked the engine over about 10 times, with the same result as before. I am stumped and frustrated as hell.....

fixxxer22
04-29-2010, 09:30 PM
have you turned the needle around again to see of you at least have the high pressure oil system bled out?

Seafordguy
04-29-2010, 10:01 PM
have you turned the needle around again to see of you at least have the high pressure oil system bled out?

I will do that first thing in the morning. I am also charging the batteries overnight as it seemed to be starting to crank slower.

Seafordguy
04-30-2010, 07:02 AM
No luck this morning. Cycled the key 6 more times for 30 seconds, re-checked HPOP oil level, re-checked all sensors were hooked up.

I am going to fiddle with it a little more but if you are out of ideas do you think this scanner will work?

http://norfolk.craigslist.org/pts/1672436322.html

fixxxer22
04-30-2010, 09:44 AM
that is a really good scanner. we have one in the shop we use for other veehicles than ford. they have verey good data capabilities. see if you can try it first. but 350 is really cheap! that thing would cost overe 3k (and they still make it) to buy new and get all the cords and keys. if you get it call me, or any scanner for that matter. it will be easier over the phone (563) 570-6010

Seafordguy
04-30-2010, 10:22 AM
that is a really good scanner. we have one in the shop we use for other veehicles than ford. they have verey good data capabilities. see if you can try it first. but 350 is really cheap! that thing would cost overe 3k (and they still make it) to buy new and get all the cords and keys. if you get it call me, or any scanner for that matter. it will be easier over the phone (563) 570-6010

He's still got it and said if I picked it up tonight I could get it for 300.

I put the IPR valve back in backwards and the truck started right up. Put it back in the proper way and it didn't start.

I am going to go get it tonight I think. You available tonight 7ish or would you rather wait for tomorrow?

Seafordguy
05-02-2010, 09:13 AM
Ended up being the Yellow and Red wire going into the connector on the IPR that had worked itself out of the connector. After a LOT of work and more parts than I care to recall we finally got it worked out.

Was throwing code 1283.

Additionally this made the buzz test throw 1271, 1273, 1275, 1277, 1293, and 1294.

Just thought I'd throw that out for people searching in the future.

fixxxer22
05-03-2010, 10:31 AM
glad you got it fixed! just curious... Did the ford diag site help you through the ipr circuit or were you wiggling hranesses and found it? either way you got a running truck and a spare pump. now with that scanner you can pinpoint even farther before having to replace anything. you got a good deal on that scanner. so good that i would just keep it. you could spend more than that in a dealer for diag.

fixxxer22
05-03-2010, 10:34 AM
and when circuits go haywire it can make codes like that on a buzz test. I always do koeo first if it does not run and address any hard faults (or the first code on the list) and then see if the others go away.

Now go drag that boat to the water!:cheers2::driving::willy_nilly::smash:

Seafordguy
05-03-2010, 12:30 PM
Oh - I am definitely keeping that scanner - it would cost me 300 bucks to get it towed to the dealer and diagnosed.

Actually I started following the ford site - The first couple steps were ohm testing the PCM relay to the IPR red side, and then ohm testing the IPR coil, etc.... Eventually it worked its way down to two or three different "problems" and the common thread on each problem was that Circuit 522 was either shorted or disconnected. I was then able to narrow down what Circuit 522 was and it even said it was the Yellow and Red wire. I looked at the harness and pulled the glue out of the back and as I did the Yellow/Red wire came right out.

The wire wasn't corroded, or broken - it just looked like it had pulled back into the insulation over the years. Very stange. I put it back in the connector and siliconed it in - hopefully it stays. I would have never found it without that direction because it looked fine in the connector from the outside....

Seafordguy
05-03-2010, 12:31 PM
Now go drag that boat to the water!:cheers2::driving::willy_nilly::smash:

got to change fuel filters and blower oil and give it a waxing and I am ready to rock:driving:

fixxxer22
06-08-2010, 09:54 AM
I just had the same concern on a 330000 mile 7.3 the IPRconnection was fried. Anyways i got the part number of the pigtail for ya. it was $15.00 6E7Z-12A690-DA Put her on with some weatherproof heat shrink crimps and it is the updated pigtail. it has plastic snaps no more metal retainer. i like them a little better. just be sure to not mix the wires up.