Need to level out around my transom cutouts

[US1Fountain]

I need to fill in the area on my transom where the gimble assemblies mount. At the top and bottom of the cutout, the gel has been worn down enough to not have a flat surface to mount the gimble assemblies to. I replaced the transom wood do to rot and it looks like the assemblies sucked into the gel. Still shiney gel, not dull from moving around. Just as if the wood was soft and the gimble units where pulled in. Not a huge amount, approx 1/16" or so at top and bottom. The middle is fine and flush when checked across wises, but is high when checked up/down within the gimble housing surface area, which is giving me a rocking on that point. I tried sanding the center down some and have a ways to go to get it flat, but I think the right way is to level the top and bottom back out. I'm right at 2" thick, so no room to get carried away sanding the center down.

What is the process for doing this?
I believe need to sand the gel off around the cutout down to bare glass, and add filler and sand flat, but not sure on what type of filler to use. I have some Cabisol from US Composites and some West System high density left over. Going to use Vinlyester resin as that's what I have used and am comfortable with it.

I see fillers that are easier to sand, but not sure about the compression charactristics of them for this application, plus if I can use the Cabisol, rather use it up vs buy more filler and just work harder at sanding. The area needing leveled out is just within the mounting area. Outside that it is flat.

Thanks

[jeffswav]

Can you take a few pics of the area?

[Offshore Ginger]

General rule of thumb in your case is...... if to high sand , and if to low fill , personally i think that you just need to work that area a little more other then sanding down to bare glass and start over because obviously that area is to high and if you need to fill i recomend getting p 77 fairing compound which is good above and below the waterline and can be used on Poly /Vinyl / and Epoxy which is a great option for the pure fact that not all fillers are designed for epoxy and this product is very easy to sand and would work fine on a transom............................ http://www.adtechplastics.com/c-31-faring-materials.aspx :seeya:

[US1Fountain]

1st (top) and 2nd (bottom)pic shows the wear when a straight edge is ran top to bottom, over the housing surface, thru the middle, so the high spots don't show up. If I where to place a straight edge confined within the housing surface only, it's pretty flat, (within Merc specs) other than at the 'ears'.

3rd pic is just a shot

the 4th and 5th pics show how much the 'ears' effect the straightness. 4th pic is with square held tight against the bottom of the housing surface and going across the 'ears'. 5th pic shows how much the high ears effect the gap at teh top. A small amount of too much height really effects the gap.

I have no problem if the housing surface could be flat and be sunk in, which could simply be achieved by sanding the high ears down. I estitmate a good 1/16" would need to be removed to get there. By doing so, I wouldn't have to gel the repair area since it will be painted with an epoxy barrier coating, then anti fouling paint. Have read were a lot of high dollar yachts have no gel coat below the water line to avoid blistering issues. That's good enough for me! :)

Artie, I'm not quite following you, are saying you would just sand the high down, or fill the low, or both and meet in the middle? Can I use the US Composites Cabasol as my filler if I need to go that route? I assume it will just require more effort to sand? I've built up a nice selection of stuff that I've used in this transom replacement that will just get tossed when done, so if posssible to use what I already have, even better.
Thanks

[gcarter]

Sort of like removing hooks and other general uneveness from the bottom.:mad:

[Offshore Ginger]

US 1 Fountain , i see that you have a hump in that area and either way it will have to come down and from the looks of things you most likely will have to go into the glass because your build up just might be to high and to tell you the truth i would take my time and try to sand the high spot out using a hog in that area or file board with guide coat and if you have to fill , yes by all means use whatever possible that you might have leftover if you fill the need but a good filler / faring compoung is much faster and sands twice as easy . I have to say that in your pics if you look at the (layup) on the cutout and l@@k at where you did your repair ( layup ) it shows the high spot having twice the beef .

[jeffswav]

Wow, pretty wavy, looks like you are going to have to fill and refinish the back. Mine was wavy also it took a lot of work to get it perfect.

[DAREDEVIL]

It actually looks like the gel is very thick on the center of the transom,,,straight edge and sand paper will go a long way !!!!!!!!:cheers2:

[US1Fountain]

I'll look into sanding it. Truth be known, I can sand great in 1 direction, but trying to get both directions flat, screw me up. Heck, I only know what side of the paper goes against the hull because the writing is on the back side.
The sunk in areas at the top and bottom kinda have me thrown though. I guess as long as the whole surface where the assembly mounts in is on the same plain and flat, it's ok. How far under 2" will still work and be safe?
Or is Merc thinking 1/4" under is trouble, so they spec out 2" thinking some will always come up short?

Thanks

[US1Fountain]

US 1 Fountain , i see that you have a hump in that area and either way it will have to come down and from the looks of things you most likely will have to go into the glass ......

OG, if I end up into the glass, do I have to regel it? As mentioned before, I'm going to be overcoating it with epoxy barrier, then antifouling paint, so I believe gel is not required underneath. Looking for some reassurance there.
Thanks!

[Offshore Ginger]

look in your box PM.............Artie

[jeffswav]

Take a look at the pictures of how I did mine, it was a lot of work. Do you have a DA and a long in-line sander?

[US1Fountain]

I have access to the sanders. Will be talking with OG for some guidance so hopefully I can go forward. This will be putting me at a screaching hault after this weekend till I know what to do.

[US1Fountain]

It actually looks like the gel is very thick on the center of the transom,,,straight edge and sand paper will go a long way !!!!!!!!:cheers2:

If you look closer, that's paint on the edge, not thick gel.

[DAREDEVIL]

If you look closer, that's paint on the edge, not thick gel.

Where are u located ?????

[US1Fountain]

Indiana

You up for a LONG road trip? :)

[DAREDEVIL]

Indiana

You up for a LONG road trip? :)

Not yet..lol

But my buddy in Indianapolis could help for sure !!!!!

Or u could bring the boat down here ?????????

[US1Fountain]

I have considered trying to find someone to come take a peek at it, just haven't got to that point yet. Indy is just an hr N of me. Have a buddy that owns a dealership there, if all else fails, might have see if his glass guy works on the side. I have no trailer for it, so hauling it around isn't an option.

[Geronimo36]

sand the high spots but try not to get outside of the transom outline area so it doesn't become a huge re-finishing project. If that happens you'll find yourself refinishing the whole transom

Almost all old boats that I've taken transom assemblies off of kinda look like that.. A lot of it comes from people overtightening the backing plates over the years... Dry fit the transom assembly and if it fits flat and can make a good seal let it fly....

I'm sure the perfectionist's will think otherwise but it's more common what your seeing than you think.. ;)

[US1Fountain]

That's what I'm going to do, start off with just working within the transom unit surface itself and ignore outside that area. I want to avoid gel work if at all possible. This is going on a cruiser that will live in teh water, so perfect is not a requirement here. Had a very nice conversation with OG this afternnon and he said just as you.

Thanks

[DAREDEVIL]

If its on a cruiser that stay's in the water, just make sure it is 100% sealed and dont even worry about anything else, it was on there so..clean it up a bit and thats it !!!!!:cheers2:

[US1Fountain]

Guys, I've been trying to get the high spots sanded down, but for the life of me, I can't get it straight in both directions at the same time. The biggest issue here is that the transom, past the cutouts, isn't flat either when checked up/down. So I can't use that as a guide when sanding the areas I need to. It will just follow the highs/lows of the transom uneveness. I'm fugging tired of this boat!

Question,

Can I use a cheap auto body filler, Bondo, and fill in the lows right over the gelcoat, past the cutouts, since I can use a long straight edge to get both those sides flat, then use a filler/resin and fill in the gimble surface low spots? (does the gel has to come off before the filler goes on??)
Then I can use a long straight board across wise using the Bondo as my temp. giude flat surface. Then once I'm happy with the gimble surface, sand off the Bondo back down to the gel.

Gelcoat. Getting confused here. I believe it is nothing more than colored resin. So I just mix it like the vinlyester resin I've been using, but with twice the hardner, 2% vs 1%, and just roll it on, then sand and buff? How many coats do I need? The gel would just be applied from water line or so and up.

[DAREDEVIL]

Guys, I've been trying to get the high spots sanded down, but for the life of me, I can't get it straight in both directions at the same time. The biggest issue here is that the transom, past the cutouts, isn't flat either when checked up/down. So I can't use that as a guide when sanding the areas I need to. It will just follow the highs/lows of the transom uneveness. I'm fugging tired of this boat!

Question,

Can I use a cheap auto body filler, Bondo, and fill in the lows right over the gelcoat, past the cutouts, since I can use a long straight edge to get both those sides flat, then use a filler/resin and fill in the gimble surface low spots? (does the gel has to come off before the filler goes on??)
Then I can use a long straight board across wise using the Bondo as my temp. giude flat surface. Then once I'm happy with the gimble surface, sand off the Bondo back down to the gel.

Gelcoat. Getting confused here. I believe it is nothing more than colored resin. So I just mix it like the vinlyester resin I've been using, but with twice the hardner, 2% vs 1%, and just roll it on, then sand and buff? How many coats do I need? The gel would just be applied from water line or so and up.

NO !!!!!! Gelcoat is gelcoat and resin is resin..

For the low spots , sand the low spots and use some MARINE-TEX,,u can buy at west marine...handles like putty...hardens like steel and sands like wood !!!!!!

Not kidding u either.

[US1Fountain]

NO !!!!!! Gelcoat is gelcoat and resin is resin..



Well fulk! Now this is exactly why I have so much trouble doing any of this transom repair. Just as soon as I think I'm learning something, I learn it ain't right. Let me ask this, do you mix it and apply like resin?

Maybe you need to visit your buddy in Indy this weekend, and while your here, drive on up 1 hr north and get my chit straightened out! I'm lost.

[DAREDEVIL]

Well fulk! Now this is exactly why I have so much trouble doing any of this transom repair. Just as soon as I think I'm learning something, I learn it ain't right. Let me ask this, do you mix it and apply like resin?

Maybe you need to visit your buddy in Indy this weekend, and while your here, drive on up 1 hr north and get my chit straightened out! I'm lost.

The marine-tex,,u apply like puddy !!!!
the gelcoat ,,,u mix sort of like resin and apply like paint !!!!!

[US1Fountain]

Thanks boss. I guess that's what I meant about the gel/resin. Kinda same way to apply.

I take it then you ain't going to visit your buddy? He ain't going to be happy 'bout that. ;)

[Offshore Ginger]

NO !!!!!! Gelcoat is gelcoat and resin is resin..

For the low spots , sand the low spots and use some MARINE-TEX,,u can buy at west marine...handles like putty...hardens like steel and sands like wood !!!!!!

Not kidding u either.Wrong , wrong , wrong . Gell coat is Resin with a Pigment added to produce a color !!!!!!

[US1Fountain]

Now you know how the inexperienced get so confused.

I've thought I read that too Artie, but wasn't 100% sure.

But then I 've also read, and seen some do, on here and elsewhere how gel can't be applied over epoxy, but just got done reading the West Systems How To For Dummies instructions and it says you can gel right over epoxy.

[Offshore Ginger]

Now you know how the inexperienced get so confused.

I've thought I read that too Artie, but wasn't 100% sure.

But then I 've also read, and seen some do, on here and elsewhere how gel can't be applied over epoxy, but just got done reading the West Systems How To For Dummies instructions and it says you can gel right over epoxy.Jerry , i would be very careful about the advise that West sytem tec,s have to offer because they have recomended spraying gell over epoxy in the past when i worked at Skater which failed and is one of the main reasons why we started using a primer called Duratec because Jell and Epoxy do not mix .I also would like to mention that West System Tec's advised using gell in the bilge of an Epoxy boat built at S2 YACHTS from there Pro Set line of Epoxy which also failed because of the Amiens . Jerry , i left you a voice mail at your home because i do not have your number at work .

[Offshore Ginger]

Jerry , i forgot to mention that Marine -Tex is a great Epoxy based product that takes 24 hours to cure and was not designed for large areas .............

[US1Fountain]

Hey Artie, which filler would be prefered for filling the lows spots from the West Sys. line? I'm thinking either the 407 or 410, going from the desciption. I also don't see any reference if they work with the vinlyester resin, since I would like it to work with both that and the epoxy. Considering the West Sys. line since I can pick some up Sat. from WM and start slapping it on this weekend if I can. Though I haven't crossed off using my left over Cabosil, just thinking might be making more work for myself if I do.

Thanks for your help. Been nice talking with you.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/filler-selection-guide/

[Wildman_Grafix]

I thought when thinned enough gel can be sprayed, with the correct gun?

[DAREDEVIL]

I thought when thinned enough gel can be sprayed, with the correct gun?

YES :cheers2:

[Offshore Ginger]

Hey Artie, which filler would be prefered for filling the lows spots from the West Sys. line? I'm thinking either the 407 or 410, going from the desciption. I also don't see any reference if they work with the vinlyester resin, since I would like it to work with both that and the epoxy. Considering the West Sys. line since I can pick some up Sat. from WM and start slapping it on this weekend if I can. Though I haven't crossed off using my left over Cabosil, just thinking might be making more work for myself if I do.

Thanks for your help. Been nice talking with you.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/filler-selection-guide/Jerry , to tell you the truth i use Cabosil for just about everything and so has every other boat co , that i have ever worked for including Thompson Boats , S 2 YACHTS , Power Quest , SKATER , which have used cabosil for everything as a filler in the past and present . Jerry no high tec $hit here, plain & simple .Jerry if you decide to go with any fillers from West system that will best fit your needs i would recomend 410 - and to tell you the truth i do not think you really need it because Cabosil will be just fine for your type of application .

[Offshore Ginger]

I thought when thinned enough gel can be sprayed, with the correct gun?Even a Preval Sprayer .:bump::seeya:

[Wildman_Grafix]

Can it be sprayed through a HVLP primer gun? Something with a 1.7 nozzle? i might even have one with a 2.2 around.

Seems to me that spraying would be better then rolling it on. You know, less sand and buff.

Just a paint guy trying to find out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Geronimo36]

Jerry , to tell you the truth i use Cabosil for just about everything and so has every other boat co , that i have ever worked for including Thompson Boats , S 2 YACHTS , Power Quest , SKATER , which have used cabosil for everything as a filler in the past and present . Jerry no high tec $hit here, plain & simple .Jerry if you decide to go with any fillers from West system that will best fit your needs i would recomend 410 - and to tell you the truth i do not think you really need it because Cabosil will be just fine for your type of application .

Artie, can you use Cabosil with Epoxy? I had always used Cabosil as a thickening agent whenever I used Poly/Viny resins.

I can't remember why but when I did my transom last year I went with the West fillers to fare low spots. Most of my deeper low spots I filled with 1708 and sanded down as close as I could get with the flap disk then skimmed with the West filler.

[Offshore Ginger]

Artie, can you use Cabosil with Epoxy? I had always used Cabosil as a thickening agent whenever I used Poly/Viny resins.

I can't remember why but when I did my transom last year I went with the West fillers to fare low spots. Most of my deeper low spots I filled with 1708 and sanded down as close as I could get with the flap disk then skimmed with the West filler.Frank , yes you can and in fact i have been using cabosil all week long with West system as a thicking agent and to tell you the truth i purchased a 10 lb bag of Cabosil last year for $ 60.00 and it is one of those things that just might last for years .

[Offshore Ginger]

Can it be sprayed through a HVLP primer gun? Something with a 1.7 nozzle? i might even have one with a 2.2 around.

Seems to me that spraying would be better then rolling it on. You know, less sand and buff.

Just a paint guy trying to find out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Yes you can spray it through a HLVP primer gun and the bigger the tip the better .

[Wildman_Grafix]

Yes you can spray it through a HLVP primer gun and the bigger the tip the better .

Thanks,

Jerry let me know, that part I can help with. Should save you some sand and buff time.

Phil

[Geronimo36]

Frank , yes you can and in fact i have been using cabosil all week long with West system as a thicking agent and to tell you the truth i purchased a 10 lb bag of Cabosil last year for $ 60.00 and it is one of those things that just might last for years .

Cool, thanks for the info Artie!

That west filler is expensive in comparision...:cheers2:

Years ago I remember having Ocean sport fish that needed space down the strut for some reason...I think the engine alignment was wayyyy off..... So, I made a concoction of vinyl resin, matt and cabosil and filled the 1/8" void... Smeared it all in and once it started to kick I cut the edges... It worked out really well and I understand the boat is still that way 10+ years later! :cheers2:

[US1Fountain]

Thanks Artie!! I've mastered that Cabisol, so I'll use it. 1 less product to throw away when this project is done.


Phil, I ain't worried about putting too much Gel on. My process whenever attempting auto body work or painting is to put it all on, sand 3/4's of it back off. :) Then apply more back where I sand too much. I'm a machinist, not a body guy. :)

[DAREDEVIL]

Thanks Artie!! I've mastered that Cabisol, so I'll use it. 1 less product to throw away when this project is done.


Phil, I ain't worried about putting too much Gel on. My process whenever attempting auto body work or painting is to put it all on, sand 3/4's of it back off. :) Then apply more back where I sand too much. I'm a machinist, not a body guy. :)

If gelcoat is applied thicker then 1/8+ it will crack..and come back off,,or let water into the glass !!!!

But what do i know....:sifone:

[Offshore Ginger]

If gelcoat is applied thicker then 1/8+ it will crack..and come back off,,or let water into the glass !!!!

But what do i know....:sifone: Dam ........that is the smartest thing you have ever wrote yetttttttt but not quite right and what are the chances of that really happening on a boat that does not do Triple digits and on the transom at that ........ (hello) ? I have seen a lot of things over the years and have sprayed primer (Duratec) 50 mills wet on wet working at Skater and never seen a crack and if water gets under the jell and wicks into the glass it will cause de-lamination put then again there are a whole lot of boats out there with over 30 mills on there bottoms Fountains ext ,ext ,and yes they have cracks in the jell but then again you seem to know more then anybody else considering you have been working on boats far longer then i ever have which is only 38 years and please tell me you are not a race boat driver , which only means STUPID . ?:iamwithstupid::icon_bs:

[jeffswav]

Hey guys, I just tried some 3m glass bubbles mixed with resin for filler on my vents. Mixed it to a peanut butter consistancy worked pretty well. I will let you know how it sands out tomorow.

[US1Fountain]

Yeah Jeff, keep us informed. Pics would be good. I'm more of a coloring book than a Readers Digest person. :) I'm going to use my Cabosil. I gots tons of that stuff left over. I'll be glad when I can pitch the rest! Tommorrows the day to throw some filler on and fill some old screw holes and what nots. I think once I get the transom sanded flat, things will move forward fast! Things have gone SLOW up to now, begining with the 1st cut into the old transom back in Nov. I'm ready to kick it up and get'r done!

Artie, this cruiser is a triple digit boat. Everything I do to it, has both cost 3x more than thought and took 3x as long to do. :)

[DAREDEVIL]

Dam ........that is the smartest thing you have ever wrote yetttttttt but not quite right and what are the chances of that really happening on a boat that does not do Triple digits and on the transom at that ........ (hello) ? I have seen a lot of things over the years and have sprayed primer (Duratec) 50 mills wet on wet working at Skater and never seen a crack and if water gets under the jell and wicks into the glass it will cause de-lamination put then again there are a whole lot of boats out there with over 30 mills on there bottoms Fountains ext ,ext ,and yes they have cracks in the jell but then again you seem to know more then anybody else considering you have been working on boats far longer then i ever have which is only 38 years and please tell me you are not a race boat driver , which only means STUPID . ?:iamwithstupid::icon_bs:

So if race boat drivers are stupid..mmmmhhhhh how did u ever get your job....lol Damn, i wish i had your knowledge,but then again i am shure glad i am not as ignorant and dumb as u are...u say a pleasure boat should not be build like a faster race boat ,,because ??????? MMMMMMHHHHHH good advertising for ya there.....lol
Like i said before, u may be a real good glass guy but not a very smart business man or know anything about "boats" and i am not talking about laying up glass or working on them ,,there is a lot more to know about them then u and i and all us here want to know !!!!!

Whatever :rolleyes:

[US1Fountain]

If gelcoat is applied thicker then 1/8+ it will crack..and come back off,,or let water into the glass !!!!

But what do i know....:sifone:


I don't know true or not. Just go with what I read or am told. I do appreciate all opinions to help. Alot of replies bring up some info that I wouldn't have known to even consider and then I'll do some more info seeking.

Thanks

[jeffswav]

Ok, I am not the glass expert here, but the 3m glass bubbles with resin seem to be pretty good. I am using them on my vents and not a structural location, I would see what the other guys think.