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rchevelle71
01-14-2010, 10:34 AM
OK,

So I am almost ready to dive into replacing the Transom on the Pantera.

I can dig up old threads about the actual transom replacement part, but first I need to get to the wood.

This boat has a splashwell(outboard) which it will no longer have once I am done, but thats another thread. I will need to cut the deck off to access the transom. I dont want to remove the whole deck, so i was thinking of removing it partially since I will need to modify the back section to remove the splashwell anyway.

What I want to do is cut the deck right around the vent area, and down into the area where the hatch is, remove it for the work, then splice it back in later. The reason for doing it here is the fact that there will be less visible glasswork since there is not much area around the vents anyway, and the inside part will only be visible when the hatch is open(even though I plan on having it damn near flawless before gel and paint), just less work to get it there. Not sure if this makes sense, but I was thinking of doing this at an angle(as shown in the attached pic), not sure it would make a difference, but just thought the splice may be stronger this way.

Am I totally off base? Has this been done? Is it a feasable thing to do, or would the experts cringe??

glassdave
01-14-2010, 11:22 AM
yea thats totally feasible, since you have to do a bunch glasswork back there anyway. When working with fiberglass the possibilities are endless its pretty much up to your imagination and level of commitment. So i assume your converting to an I/O?

rchevelle71
01-14-2010, 11:30 AM
yea thats totally feasible, since you have to do a bunch glasswork back there anyway. When working with fiberglass the possibilities are endless its pretty much up to your imagination and level of commitment. So i assume your converting to an I/O?

Thanks Dave, just wanted to make sure it was OK before I cut it, you can tell me how to fix it later:sifone:

NOT converting to an I/O, but replacing a damp transom, and closing off the splashwell since it will no longer be needed, may be going with a bracket with swim platform instead of just the jackplate. I will be raising the transom 5", capping the splashwell, adding knees to the transom, and we'll see how the stringers are once I get in there. I need to remove the motor, cut off the 1/4" Aluminum plate that is covering the entire transom(even welded and wrapped up into the splashwell), the boat was originally a twin outboard, then I will measure out where to cut, and go for it. Probably be a few weekends still before I even get to the cutting. What are your thoughts on the angle cut vs. straight, does this make more sense, or do I just hang around with too many engineers?

Rick

jeffswav
01-14-2010, 11:33 AM
I am not a glass expert, but I play one on TV. :rofl: I am working on mine right now, I am sure you have seen the post. Be sure the place you cut has plenty of surface area to make the boat as strong at it was before. I know mine is really thick on the area around the vents. Almost like that area takes more stress than a solid piece. Does that make sence?

rchevelle71
01-14-2010, 11:37 AM
I am not a glass expert, but I play one on TV. :rofl: I am working on mine right now, I am sure you have seen the post. Be sure the place you cut has plenty of surface area to make the boat as strong at it was before. I know mine is really thick on the area around the vents. Almost like that area takes more stress than a solid piece. Does that make sence?

Sure, that makes sense, one other reson for doing it in this area is that I will have access to it thru the venthole, and also easy access to the backside under the hatch area without removing any interior. Since this area is not cosmetic in any way on the inside, i can make it as thick as I want.

Offshore Ginger
01-14-2010, 12:21 PM
Rick is there any chance of posting some pics of the motorwell and adding the knees is a great idea .:bump:

glassdave
01-14-2010, 12:25 PM
Thanks Dave, just wanted to make sure it was OK before I cut it, you can tell me how to fix it later:sifone:


LOL:D


yes thats fine to cut at an angle like that. Not sure you gain any advantage in strength but i understand the thought process. Also for lumber in the transom you might want to go with three layers of half inch rather then the usual two layers of three quarter.

rchevelle71
01-14-2010, 12:35 PM
LOL:D


yes thats fine to cut at an angle like that. Not sure you gain any advantage in strength but i understand the thought process. Also for lumber in the transom you might want to go with three layers of half inch rather then the usual two layers of three quarter.

I will be going 3 layers 1/2, just found a supplier of marine plywood local yesterday(I am sure there are a bunch in south fl though), gotta give a call when I get closer to putting it back in for pricing.

rchevelle71
01-14-2010, 12:37 PM
Rick is there any chance of posting some pics of the motorwell and adding the knees is a great idea .:bump:

This is the closest thing I have here on the work comp. I can get more, whats your idea?

Offshore Ginger
01-14-2010, 04:08 PM
This is the closest thing I have here on the work comp. I can get more, whats your idea? I have done more then my share of motorwells in the past and the reason i asked for the pic is to get a better idea of what you will be working with . I understand that you are going to raise the transom 5" and in your first post you stated that you no longer will have a motorwell and with that in mind does that mean that you are going to custom fabricate that whole area by glassing it in ?

insanity
01-14-2010, 05:08 PM
Something to consider would be to 'fill' the motorwell and shape/smooth things prior to cutting everything out/off. Then you can pull a mold from it, and when it comes time to put everything back together, pop a part from your mold you created and you would be good to go, in theory your new part would fill in everything you cut out.

Are you going to move the rear seat back after you fill in the motorwell?

J-Bonz
01-14-2010, 08:40 PM
Something to consider would be to 'fill' the motorwell and shape/smooth things prior to cutting everything out/off. Then you can pull a mold from it, and when it comes time to put everything back together, pop a part from your mold you created and you would be good to go, in theory your new part would fill in everything you cut out.

Are you going to move the rear seat back after you fill in the motorwell?

Not a bad idea...

jeffswav
01-14-2010, 09:33 PM
OG and Dave will give you good advice. If you go by what they tell you that should keep you on track. I would take some very detailed pictures. I was thinking that area around the vents might not be good place to cut because of less surface area when you put it back together. It may make a weak spot. However I am no expert it might be fine to cut it there.

rchevelle71
01-14-2010, 10:07 PM
I have done more then my share of motorwells in the past and the reason i asked for the pic is to get a better idea of what you will be working with . I understand that you are going to raise the transom 5" and in your first post you stated that you no longer will have a motorwell and with that in mind does that mean that you are going to custom fabricate that whole area by glassing it in ?

YES,

My thought was to make panels as I go, and glass them in.

rchevelle71
01-14-2010, 10:11 PM
Something to consider would be to 'fill' the motorwell and shape/smooth things prior to cutting everything out/off. Then you can pull a mold from it, and when it comes time to put everything back together, pop a part from your mold you created and you would be good to go, in theory your new part would fill in everything you cut out.

Are you going to move the rear seat back after you fill in the motorwell?


Good idea,

I have never done a mold, and not sure that this needs one. Basically it will be the same structure, just with the motorwell capped off 5" up rom where it is now on top of the new transom.

I will eventually move the back seat back in another episode, but that will require some restructuring. Most important to me is to get the new transom in, re gelcoat the repair/modified areas, and paint to match. I want to be back on the water by summer, so the opening up of the cockpit will be put off a year or so, until I have the coin to redo the entire interior..

Offshore Ginger
01-14-2010, 10:47 PM
YES,

My thought was to make panels as I go, and glass them in. Good idea & when i worked at Skater doing most of the motor wells for trip outboards on 32's i would use panels ( panel ) made out of 2 layers of glass to fabricate the area for the wells , cut them to size and then fit , re glassing over the entire area giving it more beef and structural integrity ,and if you go to my thread titled the Old Don Q Rum and look at the lids / baffles i made for the gas tank's this should give you a good idea of the panels im talking about .

Buoy
01-14-2010, 11:30 PM
Good idea,

I have never done a mold, and not sure that this needs one. Basically it will be the same structure, just with the motorwell capped off 5" up rom where it is now on top of the new transom.

I will eventually move the back seat back in another episode, but that will require some restructuring. Most important to me is to get the new transom in, re gelcoat the repair/modified areas, and paint to match. I want to be back on the water by summer, so the opening up of the cockpit will be put off a year or so, until I have the coin to redo the entire interior..

Rick, this is just me, but, as long as you're opening her up, I'd do the whole "she-bangs" in one shot.
Cut it right in front of the cockpit, pull the whole inner-liner of the cockpit with the deck/gunwales. This will open up the floor and give you the chance to replace the gas tank at the same time.
The one thing that worries me about my boat is the gas tank. I have NO reason to be worried, and everything seems fine, but I know that if the tank goes South, I'm in for one helluva mess.
I remember reading a magazine article posted from "back-in-the-day" about the fact that there is no access to the rank on the 24 Pantera, and it's just stuck in my head.

MOBILEMERCMAN
01-14-2010, 11:54 PM
My suggestion would be to cut the vertical surfaces on the inside. I would try not to mess up the areas of the deck from the rail up including the top horizontal section. If you can make your joint/ blend repair in the inside vertical it can potentially be covered by an upholstered panel. It can then retain the original lines and profile as it does know.

rchevelle71
01-15-2010, 09:19 AM
Good idea & when i worked at Skater doing most of the motor wells for trip outboards on 32's i would use panels ( panel ) made out of 2 layers of glass to fabricate the area for the wells , cut them to size and then fit , re glassing over the entire area giving it more beef and structural integrity ,and if you go to my thread titled the Old Don Q Rum and look at the lids / baffles i made for the gas tank's this should give you a good idea of the panels im talking about .

Cool,

I read the thread, but have not seen it lately, I will go back and look. When you say 2 layers of glass, thats it?? I was thinking of using some type of core? I would like some strengh to it, since inevitably someone will walk on it to get to the bracket/swim platform. Also considering something like this vs. just the knees. This was done on a 24 Sonic twin outboard recently.

rchevelle71
01-15-2010, 09:27 AM
Rick, this is just me, but, as long as you're opening her up, I'd do the whole "she-bangs" in one shot.
Cut it right in front of the cockpit, pull the whole inner-liner of the cockpit with the deck/gunwales. This will open up the floor and give you the chance to replace the gas tank at the same time.
The one thing that worries me about my boat is the gas tank. I have NO reason to be worried, and everything seems fine, but I know that if the tank goes South, I'm in for one helluva mess.
I remember reading a magazine article posted from "back-in-the-day" about the fact that there is no access to the rank on the 24 Pantera, and it's just stuck in my head.


I agree,

But time and $$$ over ride that. I am just sick of having to fix up stress cracks every time I run her hard. I know not all of this is from the bad Transom, but I am absolutely sure MOST of it is. I believe my tank has already been replaced at one point, as the area that would have to be cut out of the back seat area to get it out was all hacked up when I got the boat, I fixed it up when I had the boat torn down the first time. I also plan on repainting the whole boat(a more manly color this time:sifone:), and replacing the interior eventually, if I waited for the $$ to show up to do that, I would be 2 summers lost. If I cut into it now, and keep my head in it, I may be able to salvage Memorial day, and the entire summer. Last summer we had weeks at a time that the Atlantic was 2 feet or less, and I could run all day wide open with the occasional throttle back, I missed the beginning of that due to switching out motors, I dont want to miss that this year.:driving:

rchevelle71
01-15-2010, 09:34 AM
My suggestion would be to cut the vertical surfaces on the inside. I would try not to mess up the areas of the deck from the rail up including the top horizontal section. If you can make your joint/ blend repair in the inside vertical it can potentially be covered by an upholstered panel. It can then retain the original lines and profile as it does know.


Jim,

I am trying to picture this, but I still need to get the deck cap off at some point in the rear section, I dont believe I will be able to get the new transom boards in, in one piece, unless I get the top piece out of there? Also, remember these boats are very tight to work in, only 6'7" wide, I think I can do a more thorough job of getting the transom in correctly if I can access it from all sides. I agree covering it with upholstery would be an easier way out, and the cosmetics on the exterior may not be easy, but at least I can do the external cosmetic portion of it standing upright with beer in hand, not hanging upside down in the bilge trying to glass things together?

Rick

Offshore Ginger
01-15-2010, 12:57 PM
Cool,

I read the thread, but have not seen it lately, I will go back and look. When you say 2 layers of glass, thats it?? I was thinking of using some type of core? I would like some strengh to it, since inevitably someone will walk on it to get to the bracket/swim platform. Also considering something like this vs. just the knees. This was done on a 24 Sonic twin outboard recently.

Rick , all Skater O/B motor wells are custom made with the exception of the 28 and there is no core in any of them and if you make the pannels that i suggested shape , cut and fit to size adding another 2 layers of glass and tabbing in the perimeter with multiple layer's of fabric along with doing something like you show in your pics you will have more then enough beef & if you only go with the knees you should still be fine . Rick if you still are not sure of this idea then by all means add core , and like i said this is how i have done them in the past working at Skater .

rchevelle71
01-15-2010, 02:24 PM
Rick , all Skater O/B motor wells are custom made with the exception of the 28 and there is no core in any of them and if you make the pannels that i suggested shape , cut and fit to size adding another 2 layers of glass and tapping in the perimeter with multiple layer's of fabric along with doing something like you show in your pics you will have more then enough beef & if you only go with the knees you should still be fine . Rick if you still are not sure of this idea then by all means add core , and like i said this is how i have done them in the past working at Skater .

Thanks,

I will keep that in mind, especially if I do the full framing. Anywhere I can save weight is good. What type of glass would you use to make the panels? I assume you would lay them up on something flat(or in the shape I want them), gel, then 2 layers of glass, cut to fit, install with tabbing, then glass over the entire area with 2 more layers?

Offshore Ginger
01-15-2010, 06:57 PM
Thanks,

I will keep that in mind, especially if I do the full framing. Anywhere I can save weight is good. What type of glass would you use to make the panels? I assume you would lay them up on something flat(or in the shape I want them), gel, then 2 layers of glass, cut to fit, install with tabbing, then glass over the entire area with 2 more layers? Rick, i would use #1708 and yes do your layup on something flat and wait to jell after you have glassed and tooled ( dialed ) everything in . Rick , when doing these pannels you can use a lot of different material's to do your layup on , from packing tape to starboard , which glass does not stick to .

Dude! Sweet!
01-15-2010, 07:58 PM
Man, you and Tim have been reading my mind... :sifone:

Ratickle
01-15-2010, 08:58 PM
And if you don't want to do all that yourself, convince Artie to do it for a good price.....:sifone:

Thanks for all your assistance Artie. Believe me when I say what you and Dave do is very appreciated by all....

rchevelle71
01-17-2010, 11:00 AM
Rick, i would use #1708 and yes do your layup on something flat and wait to jell after you have glassed and tooled ( dialed ) everything in . Rick , when doing these pannels you can use a lot of different material's to do your layup on , from packing tape to starboard , which glass does not stick to .

OK,

Cool, Turns out I may not dig into this project this winter after all. I ran into some unforeseeen Tax obligations, fuggin State of CT taxes your vehicles, and I forgot to pay them or leave a forwarding address when I split town 9 years ago. I had 3 cars, 3 boats, and 3 trailers when I left, so 9 registrations, with 9 years of interest and penalties:eek: Just got the notice on Friday that I owe them a bunch of coin. SOOOOO, I will reinforce it with an old plan that I had made up(Stainless rod with clevises off the upper motor mount going down to a bracket that spans the stringers) to get me thru next summer. I may still lay up a panel to cap the well though, cuz this boat has such a low profile, it wants to take water into the well in the ruff, and coming off plane.

Thanks guys.

Rick

Ratickle
01-17-2010, 11:09 AM
OK,

Cool, Turns out I may not dig into this project this winter after all. I ran into some unforeseeen Tax obligations, fuggin State of CT taxes your vehicles, and I forgot to pay them or leave a forwarding address when I split town 9 years ago. I had 3 cars, 3 boats, and 3 trailers when I left, so 9 registrations, with 9 years of interest and penalties:eek: Just got the notice on Friday that I owe them a bunch of coin. SOOOOO, I will reinforce it with an old plan that I had made up(Stainless rod with clevises off the upper motor mount going down to a bracket that spans the stringers) to get me thru next summer. I may still lay up a panel to cap the well though, cuz this boat has such a low profile, it wants to take water into the well in the ruff, and coming off plane.

Thanks guys.

Rick

Get a tax attorney a settle for a lot less. They should take a one-time lump that is substantially smaller.

Offshore Ginger
01-17-2010, 07:58 PM
And if you don't want to do all that yourself, convince Artie to do it for a good price.....:sifone:

Thanks for all your assistance Artie. Believe me when I say what you and Dave do is very appreciated by all.... Paul thank you ever so much .

Offshore Ginger
01-17-2010, 08:03 PM
OK,

Cool, Turns out I may not dig into this project this winter after all. I ran into some unforeseeen Tax obligations, fuggin State of CT taxes your vehicles, and I forgot to pay them or leave a forwarding address when I split town 9 years ago. I had 3 cars, 3 boats, and 3 trailers when I left, so 9 registrations, with 9 years of interest and penalties:eek: Just got the notice on Friday that I owe them a bunch of coin. SOOOOO, I will reinforce it with an old plan that I had made up(Stainless rod with clevises off the upper motor mount going down to a bracket that spans the stringers) to get me thru next summer. I may still lay up a panel to cap the well though, cuz this boat has such a low profile, it wants to take water into the well in the ruff, and coming off plane.

Thanks guys.

Rick Rick . $hit happens and we all hope to see your project continue sometime soon in the future .

Dude! Sweet!
01-18-2010, 02:36 AM
Get a tax attorney a settle for a lot less. They should take a one-time lump that is substantially smaller.

Rick, I've got a real good buddy who's a tax attorney in Miami. He should be able to help or refer you to someone who can. I'll PM you his info tomorrow when I'm in the office.

Good luck dude!

rchevelle71
01-18-2010, 12:42 PM
Rick, I've got a real good buddy who's a tax attorney in Miami. He should be able to help or refer you to someone who can. I'll PM you his info tomorrow when I'm in the office.

Good luck dude!


OK,

Cool. I just called the collector to try and come to a compromise, but it seems they are closed for MLK day:rolleyes: Its not a HUGE amout of $$, but it is enough to stop me from doing the project Correctly(Bracket alone is like $2000), being as its right after the Holidays, and our new Puppy is bleeding me dry with Vet Bills etc., and just had to rereg. all of my vehicles in Fl being my Birthday is the end of the month. Well, here is a pic of the pup, since there may not be any boat pics for a bit:(

rchevelle71
02-02-2010, 02:44 PM
Here is a crude drawing of my reinforcement plans, I already have a 1/4" thick aluminum plate over the entire transom. What do you guys think?

Dude! Sweet!
02-02-2010, 03:32 PM
Gotta be better than nothing right? I man unless you end up breaking the stringer due to the pushing/pulling stress or the hole. I've seen a few O/B boats with an aluminum plate attached to the outside of the transom. How common is that? Is it generally just a band-aid for having a bum transom?

Offshore Ginger
02-02-2010, 04:00 PM
Gotta be better than nothing right? I man unless you end up breaking the stringer due to the pushing/pulling stress or the hole. I've seen a few O/B boats with an aluminum plate attached to the outside of the transom. How common is that? Is it generally just a band-aid for having a bum transom?Good question and Rick does that mean everything is still on hold with the exception of the aluminum ?

rchevelle71
02-02-2010, 04:14 PM
Good question and Rick does that mean everything is still on hold with the exception of the aluminum ?

The Aluminum plate is already there, and covers the ENTIRE transom, including the inside of the splashwell(welded up and over). This boat originally had twins, and when it was converted to single, one of the previous owners plated it, he did a nice job, but I know if I do the transom eventually I dont need it. I plan on leaving it as is, just adding the rods to tie it back to the stringers. I may still do the transom, havent quite made up my mind yet. I got the CT taxes paid off last week, but now it is income tax time, the deciding factor will be how much I owe, or they owe me? But I need to make a decision soon, because I have a fun run on the west coast of FL march 6 which gives me time to do the reinforcement, but not the entire transom, if I decide to do the transom, I dont want to wait too long and lose the entire summer.

rchevelle71
02-02-2010, 04:16 PM
Gotta be better than nothing right? I man unless you end up breaking the stringer due to the pushing/pulling stress or the hole. I've seen a few O/B boats with an aluminum plate attached to the outside of the transom. How common is that? Is it generally just a band-aid for having a bum transom?

I see what you are saying about the stringers, this thing doesnt have that kind of power:eek: The Plate can be there for 2 reasons, it can be a band aid, or it cen be used to spread the load across the transom.

Dude! Sweet!
02-02-2010, 08:02 PM
I see what you are saying about the stringers, this thing doesnt have that kind of power:eek:

Yet... I saw you sniffing around SnF looking at some big hot rod motors! :sifone:

rchevelle71
02-03-2010, 09:53 AM
Yet... I saw you sniffing around SnF looking at some big hot rod motors! :sifone:

NOT ME:rolleyes:

I learned my lesson with the hotrod 2.4(man that thig revved, til it blew up), its all stock for me now, A 300xs or 2 are stock merc motors arent they:driving:

Dude! Sweet!
02-03-2010, 06:05 PM
NOT ME:rolleyes:

I learned my lesson with the hotrod 2.4(man that thig revved, til it blew up), its all stock for me now, A 300xs or 2 are stock merc motors arent they:driving:

Someone I know (with a purple pantera, cough cough) yelled at me for suggesting I might convert my OB boat to 4 stroke... :cheers2:

rchevelle71
02-04-2010, 11:54 AM
Someone I know (with a purple pantera, cough cough) yelled at me for suggesting I might convert my OB boat to 4 stroke... :cheers2:

300xs is a 2 stroke Optimax 3.2 liter stroker with a sportmaster lower:sifone:

Dude! Sweet!
02-05-2010, 12:51 PM
Well there ya go! I've never claimed to be smart! Or well informed, or good looking, or rich... :sifone:

rchevelle71
02-05-2010, 12:57 PM
Well there ya go! I've never claimed to be smart! Or well informed, or good looking, or rich... :sifone:

I claim to be all of those, except rich, if I could keep my mouth shut, and never leave the house, someone might actually believe me:sifone:

I hear TNT is selling motors cheap at the Miami show, but still too much dough for me, unless thay have 10 year financing. I will be doing my taxes tonight, and if all goes well, i may still put a new transom in this thing.

Dude! Sweet!
02-05-2010, 01:19 PM
Yah, I've got an itch to change the fishboat motors out on my 24 and get something(s) with a 20" mid to get the props out of the water. And then if the motors come off, I've got a list of stuff I want to do. Getting a moisture meter on my transom is one of those things, recoating the SMI bracket is another. But that comes after the 28 project and we'll see where it falls with the house stuff and the Camaro...

rchevelle71
02-05-2010, 01:40 PM
Yah, I've got an itch to change the fishboat motors out on my 24 and get something(s) with a 20" mid to get the props out of the water. And then if the motors come off, I've got a list of stuff I want to do. Getting a moisture meter on my transom is one of those things, recoating the SMI bracket is another. But that comes after the 28 project and we'll see where it falls with the house stuff and the Camaro...

With Twins, especially on a bracket, I would probably go with the 20's also. I recently realized that with my motor deeper(1-1/2"from where I had optimum handling), it is actually a little faster at WOT(less prop slip I guess), but the handling went away, especially at part throttle(not that I spend much time there), gonna settle for the happy medium and go back up 3/4", and step back on prop dia. a bit to get the RPM's at the limiter, solid mounts, hopefully lose some weight off the transom, etc. last time out ran 59.5:driving:, and I just couldnt squeeze that extra .5 MPH out of it:mad:

Dude! Sweet!
02-05-2010, 03:00 PM
I've got some setup issues I'm working through now on mine. It's a great training boat because it feels like it's going 100 when it's only going 45! :D

rchevelle71
02-05-2010, 03:30 PM
I've got some setup issues I'm working through now on mine. It's a great training boat because it feels like it's going 100 when it's only going 45! :D

That is about mine feels like when going 45, hence the reason I only run WOT whenever possible:sifone: Those who have ridden in mine, will tell you it feels like its going 100 at 45, and 80 at 60, cant figure that one out:driving: Not sure if you have seen the videos, but if you watch it running near WOT on the ocean it handles pretty decent in most cases(other than when I dont pay attention and get a little off balance), and dont pay too much attention to the bounce in the ICW, I was just plain off on my judgemet:cheers2:there, it was late in the day:eek:

http://www.youtube.com/user/rchevelle711

rchevelle71
02-05-2010, 04:37 PM
Looks like the Donzi guys are doing it

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?p=555393&posted=1