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MikeyFIN
01-09-2010, 07:37 AM
In order not to get offtopic in Warpath and other topics around racecars and racing I though this would be a good start...





Ive been a member of the Shelby American Auto Club for many years and have attended and participated their conventions and open track events, as well as ferrari open track events. I raced a 427 SC Cobra replica virtually identical to the original and prepared by Cobra Automotive, they are very knowlegable in track preparation of all Shelby cars. Though Ive never heard any mention of Carrol Shelby putting down his own cars, I can tell you that they arent the most nimble of race cars. Some of the so called best handling cars are usually just considered good handling because they have excellent feel, are very predictable and the driver feels confident driving near or at the limit, but not necessarilly the fastest on the track. In the end the Cobra achieved with brute force and its own kind of skill, and the Ferrari couldnt match it with finness. 917 Porsches were a good example of this they were supposed to be difficult cars to handle but were unbeatable because of their other strengths.

the best handling car is the Fastest is all I can say...
I have wrenched Karting ICA, Karting FIA Formula250īs,Late Model ASA stock cars, Formula Fords, Formula3īs, FIA GT3īs and raced personally Karts and Tin tops for a while so as a Semi pro mech been from USA to Russia in racing I think I have something to bring to the table.

Thereīs proof of Shelby once putting down his 427 cars and bytheway 427īs was never raced by the Shelby American race team.
Maybe he was just frustrated because at the time 1966-69 there was still unsold 1965 427 Cobras ?
Thatīs why they became S/C as the needed number (100) was never filled to homologate them for international racing and was sold as streetcars.
Ferrari 250GTO relied and "fulfilled" the rule by stating itīs the raceversion of a normal 250GT... ( which had a book full of versions...).
Fact is also by the time the 427 came into play it was obsolete and non-competitive internationally, the mid engined cars just walked away.

The Porsche 917 story is also interesting..25 supposed to be made to get them homolageted and while the FIA officials came over there was only one or two cars in the front on the line up in running order.
The rest was just dummies with many parts made of wood, like the ignition key which was required per rules.
How did they get by it?
Well just offered the officials to take anyone of the line up to the test track and fired one up...
Ferrariīs not the only one to know how to get the unfair advantage.

Porsche917īs turned into a Gem especially the Spiders thru the testing of Mark Donohue and Leo Kinnunen who I happen to know personally with their help and John Willment came the idea to make the 917K to create downforce and slow them down.
Both happened to like their cars just as many racers do neutral on full power with a mild understeer before. Actually I have a hard time outside the Rally car drivers having someone not wanting their cars that way.

The Porsche was also in the beginning and evil car and the Horsepowers was at the start only 650hp and the last one Kinnunen drove 1974 had 1560hp available still the 650hp could intimidate the Turbos on a given day.
I have records showing that AAW racing team used many times the less powerful versions because Leo favoured them as in order to be as much as possible on the throttle you had to have the car somewhat in balance.
Also the Targa Florio 1970 showed that Gulf Porsche also there was better suited with the more nimble 908-3 as Leo Kinnunen broke that lap record to stay by a wide margin and they decided to park the 917Kīs.

Regarding brute strength vs handling the third time being a handling being a winning situation I have a very close friend who raced with Felipe Massa etc. in tin cars with a 300hp 2400 lbs Audi A4 Supertouring car equaling the lap time here on a track thatīs known to be the mini Nurburgring (http://www.m-100.cc/6point3/magazines/roadtest_jan1971/index.html) against a 936hp Audi IMSA GTO weighing the same with twice the size of the tires and and internationally recognized driver behind the wheel also.

The last proof is of 2008 with on the same day and same driver and same class cars, FIA GT3, with equal conditions and equipment: A Lambo Gallardo with much less hp and same weight as the Oreca Viper was a second faster and the Lambo has smaller tires in the rear.
So while I was still being the head mech for the Viper and also wrenched the Lambo that season we still clinched no1 at the end of the season but next year the Gallardos took a landslide bumping the Viper off the podium despite in my book a better driver and even letting 2 Porsches in front on the final standings, go figure?

Itīs also been proven (by a test of our team with Alcons vs Brembos for example and various others) that when you have 4 wheels taking down the power it takes less time to slow down and get on the gas than having a poor handling car that you canīt get on the throttle soon enough despite having a lot more horsepower.
In the end you just eat up your tires and see the other one go in the distance.

If we look today at Rally cars of today a 300hp WRC car will eat the B-grouper any day which had over X2 that the first time out.
Guys( Men actually) close here tested the first Audi S1 prototype spinning itīs all 4 wheels on tarmac at over 140 when floored... happened on a public road closeby and there was PROOF.
Hannu Mikkola who became the WC with Audi told in the beginning drop 250hp of it and it will be a world champion....

glassdave
01-09-2010, 11:30 AM
I dont have a race story but rather an encounter with a few. I was restoring a 64 triple black convertable T bird about ten years ago and was searching for some parts. I ran across two adds in Hemmings that had what i needed, one in NY and one in upstate Ill. After talking to both gentalmen i decided on the ones in Illinois. I took a day grabbed the GF and headed west. The guys name was Greg Lonberger and was in the Antioch/chain of lakes area. As i was chatting with him on the phone prior to heading out he mentioned how pizzed he was that his rurla area was being over run with city people building large weekend homes all around him, he sounded like a recluse and kind of antisocial. The picture in my head was an old farm house or a double wide or something with a pole building maybe, at any rate he did have a bunch of parts i needed. Anyway we eventually found the place and heres this fantastic large A frame type house on this big natural pond and the biggest pole building i ever saw, had to be two hundred feet plus long and there was a lone early 60's T bird sitting out back. Well i bang on one of the doors and way at the other end of the building i see the guy pop his head out and flag me down that way. We make our way down there and inside. The back third of the building was walled off for a seperate shop and the front part of the building is full of all kinds of cars from a Rolls silver cloud, to a big old 60's Dodge truck set up like Bigfoot. He also had several restored T birds and Mustangs and other stuff as well as a really cool old 914 Porsche with a 450hp Lengenfelter(sp?) small block in it that was really a piece of engineering, visually i looked bone stock. The parts i came for were arainged on a piece of carpet awaiting my inspection, all of which i bought. As i was looking around the building and chatting with the owner i noticed a set of Halibrand Knock offs on one of the shelfs. I ask what they were for and he told me they were for a car he was restoring and asked if I'd like to see it. Hell yea!. We go in back and there on a rotessorie was one of the original Ford Gt-40's, the second built in the program, the car Miles/Gurney won Daytona with. I look around the shop and he has three (3!) original 427 Cobras all mint restored. Needless to say i was in heavan. Greg goes on to tell me he had six or seven of them throughout the 70's and these were the ones he still had left, as he put it "I raced 'em and wrecked 'em but he kept every piece". He sold one previously and built the house and pole building. He showed me a bunch of old race pics including the one where he claimed one of the Cobras tried to kill him, guardrailed it and rolled it on a track somewhere. He kept every twisted piece and put the car back together. He went on to tell me that he never really had a job but was always a "car guy" and the fact that he took an intrest in the Cobras paid off later on, he laughed and said it was a good thing he never took an intrest in a MGB or something lol.

pullmytrigger
01-09-2010, 12:17 PM
wow cool guy!.....was your gfriend pizzed cause u wanted to stay there all day?? lol

glassdave
01-09-2010, 02:08 PM
wow cool guy!.....was your gfriend pizzed cause u wanted to stay there all day?? lol

shes actually great about that kind of stuff, she knew i drifted into a different world at that point and just let me go. I tried to explain the significance but was somewhat unsuccessful although she understood my enthusiasm. We actually did hang out for some time and "bench raced" a bit, really a memorable thing meeting Greg. Apparently he is a leading expert on Shelby and GT-40 cars. I wish i had room (and the memory) to share some of the stories he told me. Funny thing we were talking about the 914 Porsche he had and apparently he built it for a previously wealthy gentleman out of Chicago that went bankrupt mid way through the project towards the end. Greg had no choice but to lean on the car an take ownership for past due balances. At that time it was for sale for a vary reasonable amount as Greg simply said it was to much car and without a doubt the fastest most agile car he had ever driven. Called it scary fast and would whop anything he had ever been in. This ,mind you, coming from a person that owned multiple 427 Cobras and a GT-40. I still have pics of that car and the spec sheet somewhere i will try and scan them and post 'em. I dont have pics of anything else though it was before cell phone cameras :D

tommymonza
01-09-2010, 08:57 PM
Fun fact: On the back of some Daytona Cobras what did the letters NYFAIM mean?

glassdave
01-10-2010, 11:14 PM
Fun fact: On the back of some Daytona Cobras what did the letters NYFAIM mean?

I've seen that undernieth the number on the front of some cars. I have no idea and google brings up nothin? . . . . :confused:

MikeyFIN
01-11-2010, 05:57 AM
I dont have a race story but rather an encounter with a few. .

Sure did the guy have a job..he was a Racer.
Thatīs a fulltime job.
And great story.

pullmytrigger
01-11-2010, 11:26 AM
Heres one........Superbike qualifying race, May '88......got into the first turn about 10th of 32 or so guys on the grid......passed a couple guys during the race.....things are going well......Mosport is FAST, fastest track we raced on but it was ROUGH in those days, that was just before the major repaving job as it is today.....Anyway laps are winding down, get onto the Long uphill back straight......you enter in second gear and wind it right out in 6th, somewhere right around 150 155mph......see a guy up ahead....my bike had legs......just shifted into 6th gear catch his draft and start pulling up to him pretty good.....about 10ft off his back wheel the guy comes up out of his tuck and his front wheel is a blur, speed wobble, did I tell you the track was rough?.....were prob doing like 145 mph.....by now my front wheel is about 2ft off his back..... the guy looses it!!!!..... the front end of his bike digs in, he separates and the bike starts going end over end in mid air a foot away from me as Im chugging by at 145.....I could easily reach out and touch it....Im like WTFAAAAAAACK!!!!!.......I stayed in the gas even harder to get away, the bike comes down on its back right on the fairing and gauges.....the fairing explodes when it hits the pavement and pieces hit my bike and leg, the bike shudders but I manage to get by...... Im thinking like "WTF THAT GUYS GOTTA BE DEAD WHOA!....JEEZUS!!......then reality flashes in at 150 and I see the 5th gear right hander at the end of the straight coming up FAST......Im WAY off line for the entrance over react and clamp the brakes so hard both wheels start to chatter at 140, then I cant steer of course and Im running out of f'king track in a hurry!..... After saying hello to Elvis I managed to keep it out of the dirt with about 6" of pavement to spare......came around to the pit straight and saw the red flag pulled in and said "somebody gimmie a f'kin smoke....WHOA!!!!"
They took the guy away in the ambulance and he was apparently ok, just tumbled didn't hit a guard rail....saw the bike and whole fork, triple clamp front wheel assembly had separated from the bike, no tank, seat or tail section was in sight......

I got a couple more....

MikeyFIN
01-11-2010, 11:39 AM
Ahhhh... Mosport.. the place where CanAm legends were made of.
One of the true glorious tracks in North America, along with Watkins Glen and Road America.

That was a good one hopefully the other guy is ok.

I know this guys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjdPIBb6LRw) both brothers and their family company (funeral service, of all) is ca 800 yards from me on this street...
Remember watching the news like yesterday.
RR Racers are very well known from this little town of ours.

Keep them coming.

xlr8by
01-11-2010, 12:53 PM
I've seen that undernieth the number on the front of some cars. I have no idea and google brings up nothin? . . . . :confused:

It means Next Year Ferrari's Ass is mine! :). I am being serious.

Dude! Sweet!
01-11-2010, 02:10 PM
Ahhhh... Mosport.. the place where CanAm legends were made of.
One of the true glorious tracks in North America, along with Watkins Glen and Road America.

That was a good one hopefully the other guy is ok.

I know this guys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjdPIBb6LRw) both brothers and their family company (funeral service, of all) is ca 800 yards from me on this street...
Remember watching the news like yesterday.
RR Racers are very well known from this little town of ours.

Keep them coming.

Good enough to get an Italian F1 drive named after him, eh?