PDA

View Full Version : apache 3a vs 5



DrGaryDC
12-25-2009, 06:04 PM
Does anyone have experience what i can expect when i switch out my 3's to 5's on my 41' apache. (ie. handling, speed), I probably would need spacers. thanks
Dr. G

DAREDEVIL
12-25-2009, 06:17 PM
In the class u gonna race it u need acceleration.....leave the 3 A's on it !!!!!!

Leave the boat the way it is and run it first before u whant to change things...just a little tip.:USA:

MILD THUNDER
12-25-2009, 06:26 PM
Wouldnt running spacers on the V's kinda defeat the purpose of running V's over 3A's??

MikeyFIN
12-25-2009, 06:30 PM
Yep---canīt argue with that.
In the US allabout acceleration.

Learn the ropes with the boat first, get a feel for it and after that make changes one at a time and keep a record of every test.
Itīs a slow progress but better that way so you do not end up with a 93mph boat going 78 soon and forgot the notes and changes made while going downhill.

And that goes for everything from camshaft timing to ignition timing and the drives.

You got the speed already dialed in close enough do not mess with it too much and jump with your both feet in.

DrGaryDC
12-25-2009, 06:41 PM
Makes sense, thanks for the great advise. I would cry if i my boat started out at 93 and soon went to 78, ugh. ;)
Dr. G

Chris
12-25-2009, 11:51 PM
Depends on present X dimension. My guess is the transom was cut many years ago to an X that was friendly to the prop selection of the day. So a higher drive height might help. The 5 has the setback box which compensates some for it's shorter height, but not all. My guess is that with the 5's in the 3 holes you're still going to be a bit high. But you can shim down. You can't shim up. With the 5's you'll have the latitude to tune exactly into the sweet spot of speed vs. loss of handling from being too high. With that and a modern set of CNC props, I'd guess there's some substantial gains to be had.

Roger 1
12-26-2009, 12:59 PM
Maybe this picture will shed a little light on the subject....

Ratickle
12-26-2009, 01:05 PM
I currently have 3A's on the Black Thunder, so I am also very interested in this question.

My thought is that 5's give you a lot more latitude, (similar to 6's), with spacers etc and dialing the boat in would be a lot more exact. With 3's or 3A's you're stuck.....

Magnum Mark
12-26-2009, 05:31 PM
Maybe this picture will shed a little light on the subject....

remember this boat weighs maybe 6500 lbs.[no fuel].built to run with 1000 kilo[2200lbs] counterweight in the front....carry on..

p.s..too bad lake X is closed..being that you have merc power the boat would be welcomed.......i was....cya..

Ratickle
12-26-2009, 08:41 PM
Has no one out there actually done this conversion? It seems to be easy and make sense......

What about the guys at Cigarette, Apache, Fountain, etc??????

DrGaryDC
12-26-2009, 08:45 PM
Yeah, if anyone has, would like to know before i make the investment.

Ratickle
12-26-2009, 08:47 PM
Yeah, if anyone has, would like to know before i make the investment.

I think it's time for the Serious Team to do some Serious inquiries around the boating world.....

DrGaryDC
12-26-2009, 09:02 PM
Sounds like a plan, buddy

DrGaryDC
12-26-2009, 10:20 PM
Hey Scott, i do appreciate the information. I do have a pair of 5's that i can try (no money needed) but i believe from what i was told wrong gear ratio. Anyway, yes, the boat runs good as is, with the merc 800's. Makes sense
Dr. G

Birdog
12-27-2009, 08:18 AM
Has no one out there actually done this conversion? It seems to be easy and make sense......

What about the guys at Cigarette, Apache, Fountain, etc??????


All of the 90mph Top Guns had Vs {Staggered boats}.....Diff boat, same era...There must have been a reason

I would check with Tres Martin also....He knows his way around setting up Vs
I bet you will need boxes...

Chris
12-27-2009, 10:27 AM
A SSM V is a #4 with big shafts on boxes.

There's nothing to lose on this one. The straight-bottom 41 likes the extension box- note the White Lightning 41. And being able to adjust X while experimenting with props? The absolute worst thing that could happen is you end up in the same place you started. Which is unlikely.

DAREDEVIL
12-27-2009, 11:58 AM
A SSM V is a #4 with big shafts on boxes.

There's nothing to lose on this one. The straight-bottom 41 likes the extension box- note the White Lightning 41. And being able to adjust X while experimenting with props? The absolute worst thing that could happen is you end up in the same place you started. Which is unlikely.

WRONG !!!!!!!! A #4 is a short version of the #3 and u can get them with a big Prop shaft !!!!!!

A #5 is a thing for its own !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trusst me on this Chris.

MikeyFIN
12-27-2009, 12:53 PM
Doc hereīs a pic by mobilemercman from another thread (http://seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12831&highlight=SSM3) here SSM4īs on the side SSM3a in the middle.


http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=49127&d=1260852069

MikeyFIN
12-27-2009, 12:56 PM
You might find this link (http://www.mercruiserparts.com/Show_pictures3.asp?dnbr=13668&ivar=IMAGES/COMMON/18800.png&inbr=932&bnbr=33&bdesc=CONTROL+PANEL(III-IV-V)) interesting..

DrGaryDC
12-27-2009, 01:15 PM
Hey guys, i appreciate everyones input here. As this is a new boat to me, I am not new to offshore powerboats. I grew up on powerboats on the jersey shore and followed apba and npba back in the day. I have driven all types of incredible boats from 27 magnum sports, 12 meter fountains, 40' skaters (141mph) 39' Mti (130mph). I try to be a perfectionist. I want to set this boat up perfectly, whatever perfect is. It will be driven as well as a trailer queen. No beat up, unmaintained, grease bucket here, haha:)

DrGaryDC
12-27-2009, 01:26 PM
Just by visual, do they look high or low? We have not measured them yet

Magnum Mark
12-27-2009, 02:17 PM
Just by visual, do they look high or low? We have not measured them yet

take a look!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!sent you a better 1..too large to post .....

Magnum Mark
12-27-2009, 02:24 PM
i did !!!!!!

that you did......i was there with minn gary.......randy says 8 mph with 5s...

Magnum Mark
12-27-2009, 02:29 PM
[QUOTE=DrGaryDC;400636]

I want to set this boat up perfectly, whatever perfect is. QUOTE]



IT IS !!!!!!!!

time will tell.....thank you in advance........

DrGaryDC
12-27-2009, 02:33 PM
8 mph increase, we would be looking at just over 100mph, wow

Magnum Mark
12-27-2009, 02:38 PM
8 mph increase, we would be looking at just over 100mph, wow

in a 26 year old boat that was built to run 80......be careful..

Magnum Mark
12-27-2009, 02:39 PM
8 mph increase, we would be looking at just over 100mph, wow

did you get my e mail? post pic if you would...

DAREDEVIL
12-27-2009, 02:53 PM
Here is a better pic

Magnum Mark
12-27-2009, 03:14 PM
other then scott and gary how many actual competitors do we have here????????????

MikeyFIN
12-27-2009, 05:27 PM
Doc.
What to do If I were you would be take the boat out as it is, learn how to accelerate it and take a time from at least say 1500 rpm up to WOT then maybe try those 5īs and do the same, then think that you got 2.5 mile courses and 4 turns...at minimum.
At those courses you need them 3Aīs there.

Just like in roadracing the guy with the better brakes is faster per lap than the guy with more horsepower...

MOBILEMERCMAN
12-27-2009, 07:11 PM
in a 26 year old boat that was built to run 80......be careful..

I suggest you leave it like it is too. Don't change rotation, don't change drives. Run it. Maybe try some props. That's it.

That boat was designed to run in open water. Even today in big open water as is it would challenge the newest and latest and greatest.

Remember the old muscle cars? How many of them remain unchanged and not re engineered and ruined. Only the unchanged ones are worth anything now.

Magnum Mark
12-27-2009, 09:40 PM
I suggest you leave it like it is too. Don't change rotation, don't change drives. Run it. Maybe try some props. That's it.

That boat was designed to run in open water. Even today in big open water as is it would challenge the newest and latest and greatest.

Remember the old muscle cars? How many of them remain unchanged and not re engineered and ruined. Only the unchanged ones are worth anything now.

got 1 of those as well..anyone interested? nos dont match.....

10x
12-27-2009, 09:47 PM
WRONG !!!!!!!! A #4 is a short version of the #3 and u can get them with a big Prop shaft !!!!!!

A #5 is a thing for its own !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trusst me on this Chris.


Scott, I think you guys are missing the point of what Gary's asking. You are correct on what you say except for the fact that the #5 is a thing of its own.
The #4 & the #5 both have the same prop shaft height, identical cases other than the original #5 case has some extra webbing in the corners for additional support. You can get a #4 with the #5 prop shaft to accept the #6 prop selection, but the guts are the same as a regular #4 drive.
What I think he's looking for, is the difference in prop shaft height from a #4 to a #5, and that height is 4". So, if Gary was to put the "surface type" drive on, (the #5's), he'd more than likely need to add the boxes for sure. The boxes have 3 different height holes drilled in them, the middle being standard. Then probably a 1 or 2" spacer would need be added to get the prop back down. It's all trial and error. Mark and I know a guy that put dozens of different engine combinations in a 41 to get it to run solidly over 100, went from 3A's to 5's from 3 bladers to 5 bladers, and he said that nomatter what he tried, it was all a waste of money. Once you're at that triple didget #, it's like you're hitting a brick wall nomatter what you throw at it.

Just my $.02

Frank

Magnum Mark
12-27-2009, 09:57 PM
Scott, I think you guys are missing the point of what Gary's asking. You are correct on what you say except for the fact that the #5 is a thing of its own.
The #4 & the #5 both have the same prop shaft height, identical cases other than the original #5 case has some extra webbing in the corners for additional support. You can get a #4 with the #5 prop shaft to accept the #6 prop selection, but the guts are the same as a regular #4 drive.
What I think he's looking for, is the difference in prop shaft height from a #4 to a #5, and that height is 4". So, if Gary was to put the "surface type" drive on, (the #5's), he'd more than likely need to add the boxes for sure. The boxes have 3 different height holes drilled in them, the middle being standard. Then probably a 1 or 2" spacer would need be added to get the prop back down. It's all trial and error. Mark and I know a guy that put dozens of different engine combinations in a 41 to get it to run solidly over 100, went from 3A's to 5's from 3 bladers to 5 bladers, and he said that nomatter what he tried, it was all a waste of money. Once you're at that triple didget #, it's like you're hitting a brick wall nomatter what you throw at it.

Just my $.02

Frank

i introduced the doc to that fellow u mentioned frank...i went thru this 17 yrs ago..go doc go ....m.m..

10x
12-27-2009, 10:11 PM
Mark, I love when ya post those good ol' days pics. :) Mannnn, Tommy sure does look young there LOL. Mikey don't look much older either, and Benny, I wanna say, that's the way I remembered him. Keep up the postin !!! Go Mark Go !!! :cheers2:

Did'nt you have that pic from when I was with Mikey in the dynasoar, we went out to race Gene Bell in that 12 meter Fountain with the Ferrarra motors "Me Bad", and Lois waited for us with you in the 35 red Cig in the playpen ??? She wanted to see the pic I took of you and her in your cig. You still got it ???

Magnum Mark
12-27-2009, 10:29 PM
Mark, I love when ya post those good ol' days pics. :) Mannnn, Tommy sure does look young there LOL. Mikey don't look much older either, and Benny, I wanna say, that's the way I remembered him. Keep up the postin !!! Go Mark Go !!! :cheers2:

Did'nt you have that pic from when I was with Mikey in the dynasoar, we went out to race Gene Bell in that 12 meter Fountain with the Ferrarra motors "Me Bad", and Lois waited for us with you in the 35 red Cig in the playpen ??? She wanted to see the pic I took of you and her in your cig. You still got it ???

in my office..will scan it..

Magnum Mark
12-27-2009, 10:41 PM
Itīs just composite ..can be repaired, just ask Top Bananas opinion ;)

a 41 apache this lite is still state of the art 26 yrs later...the boat can be repaired but can the operators...have you any experiance with this type of equipment?......doc bought this boat with no sea trial or survey..the boat speaks for itsself..when gary drives this boat he will need plastic surgery to get the smile off his face..ask anyone who has been onboard....m.m..

10x
12-27-2009, 10:49 PM
a 41 apache this lite is still state of the art 26 yrs later...the boat can be repaired but can the operators...have you any experiance with this type of equipment?......doc bought this boat with no sea trial or survey..the boat speaks for itsself..when gary drives this boat he will need plastic surgery to get the smile off his face..ask anyone who has been onboard....m.m..

"Ditto" I'm still smiling !!:eek:

DAREDEVIL
12-27-2009, 10:58 PM
"Ditto" I'm still smiling !!:eek:

SO AM I !!!!!

But Frank, the #4 has the upper gears and lower gears from the #3 !

The #5 has bigger gears !!!!

On the propshaft u are correct , thats what i said aswell, I HAVE A #4 Bigshaft.

Also the housing is slightly different in the inside to make room for the bigger gears, the lower is even on the outside thats why the #4 has a little less drag !!!!!!

Please Frank,,,look it up and /or trusst me.

How many parts do u need for a #3,4 or 5 , if i don't hve them i can get them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STILL, maybe not for an other 5 years but now !!!! LOL


The driveshaft height difference = 5.6 inches between a #3 ( 3A ) and a #4 ( 5 ) !!

So know u put the bokes on in - 1 , your 4.6 higher ( remember on this Apache it was 3/4 inches below ) So u are 4 inches above

U now add 3 inches ( which is the max in spacers u can go ) u are 1 above the hull ( TO HIGH , even with the notch )

Why i know ,,i tested this more then once on boats with a notch !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:seeya:

Airpacker
12-28-2009, 08:09 AM
There are two posters in this thread that should remember their manners. I did not see where the Doc asked for your classroom brawl imput. Please take your childish fighting OUTSIDE and keep it of Serious or reprecussions will follow.

Consider this a final warning or your fight will be with me.

Doc, on behalf of Serious, I apoligise for your thread being tarnished and will make every effort to clean it up.

Tres
12-28-2009, 09:21 AM
Does anyone have experience what i can expect when i switch out my 3's to 5's on my 41' apache. (ie. handling, speed), I probably would need spacers. thanks
Dr. G done it many times, depends what your trying to accomplish, and bottom Mods are required. either set will work, 3s or 5s. Just set up different. Higher drive will result in faster speed if you adjust the bottom, but will lack the accell. Problem is with the 3 the prop selection is much more limited. You can adjust the bottom for either drive and gain results.

Birdog
12-28-2009, 09:35 AM
done it many times, depends what your trying to accomplish, and bottom Mods are required. either set will work, 3s or 5s. Just set up different. Higher drive will result in faster speed if you adjust the bottom, but will lack the accell. Problem is with the 3 the prop selection is much more limited. You can adjust the bottom for either drive and gain results.


Well worth calling Tres, Doc...He will help you decide either way....
Congrats on buying my favorite Apache !...Cant wait to see her racing

Listen to guys like MM & Tres..Ignore the 2 class clowns.....

underpressure
12-28-2009, 10:34 AM
Everybody is kinda overlooking parts for the 3 and 5 drives supposedly is getting a little scarce. I have 5's on my staggered gun and was told by all you could not remove spacers but like Mark said it was done many moons ago with a different generation of props. I took out almost 3" and the boat ran exactly the same. And that is on 5's to 5's. Right now I am running 4 blades but more geared for cruise. Mine is heavy though, about 14,500 with fuel so that may be different. Bottom line no one will have an answer, just opinions and past experiences to go by. Even the 41 Apaches had many wieghts and layouts. Still to this day the most incredible go-fast I have ever ridden, bar none, from the light Predator to Mikey's Jester.

On Predator we went from 5 drives to 6's and the handling, trim and raceability was completely different and better.

Cool pics Mark, hope you had a great Christmas.

Carl

underpressure
12-28-2009, 11:12 AM
Oops., just read you bought Magnums boat, wow, never thought he was serious about selling. What an awesome piece, congrats.

We raced Predator, or the Rabbit as Bobby says, another light 41. It weighed 10,000 with fuel at the Marathon race. We never thought it would run good in the rough being light but amazingly it ran like a raped ape and was a terror in flat too. Holy crap could that boat turn. When we had sixes and the Bigger Chiefs it went over 100 pretty easy. Its still classified though.

DrGaryDC
12-28-2009, 11:42 AM
I appreciate it, thank you
Dr. G

underpressure
12-28-2009, 12:59 PM
The Predator boat with 850ish motors ran in the mid 90's with the number 5 drives. It also had the old style tie bar for the drives mounted to the ears of the drive. Made you think a little when we pushed really hard into the turns.

When we put the sixes on we also bumped power to 1140 or so. Like Mark referenced it was a little hairy when it got close to 115, might say out of control or such. Crazy acceleration, but the winning while racing was a combination of a driver who knew how far to push the turn (and the nuts to actually do it) and a throttle guy working the tabs and drives to maintain the spped as close to the class rules in the turns and straightaways as possible. It is less about acceleration in the speed classes as it is staying right at the number. If you try to catch up you most likely break out.

Here are pictures of the Predator tie bar and mine the Marine Machine style

underpressure
12-28-2009, 01:03 PM
Sorry I meant to say the steering was mounted to the ears, but you probably got my drift.

DrGaryDC
12-28-2009, 03:46 PM
Thanks everyone for the great input into the question 3a's vs 5's. I think i have enough info here for my decisions in either experimenting with what i have to work with or just using it the way it is. Thank you all
Dr. Gary

Magnum Mark
12-28-2009, 06:38 PM
Everybody is kinda overlooking parts for the 3 and 5 drives supposedly is getting a little scarce. I have 5's on my staggered gun and was told by all you could not remove spacers but like Mark said it was done many moons ago with a different generation of props. I took out almost 3" and the boat ran exactly the same. And that is on 5's to 5's. Right now I am running 4 blades but more geared for cruise. Mine is heavy though, about 14,500 with fuel so that may be different. Bottom line no one will have an answer, just opinions and past experiences to go by. Even the 41 Apaches had many wieghts and layouts. Still to this day the most incredible go-fast I have ever ridden, bar none, from the light Predator to Mikey's Jester.

On Predator we went from 5 drives to 6's and the handling, trim and raceability was completely different and better.

Cool pics Mark, hope you had a great Christmas.

Carl

happy holiday to you and yours carl.....mark..

10x
12-29-2009, 10:16 AM
SO AM I !!!!!

But Frank, the #4 has the upper gears and lower gears from the #3 !

The #5 has bigger gears !!!!

On the propshaft u are correct , thats what i said aswell, I HAVE A #4 Bigshaft.

Also the housing is slightly different in the inside to make room for the bigger gears, the lower is even on the outside thats why the #4 has a little less drag !!!!!!

Please Frank,,,look it up and /or trusst me.

How many parts do u need for a #3,4 or 5 , if i don't hve them i can get them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STILL, maybe not for an other 5 years but now !!!! LOL


The driveshaft hight diffrents = 6. 1/4 inches between a #3 ( 3A ) and a #4 ( 5 ) !!

So know u put the bokes on in - 1 , your 5.1/4 higher ( remember on this Apache it was 3/4 inches below ) So u are 4.5 inches above

U now add 3 inches ( which is the max in spacers u can go ) u are 1.5 above the hull ( TO HIGH , even with the notch )

Why i know ,,i tested this more then once on boats with a notch !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:seeya:


Scott, thank you for the x-dimension here that you posted. Great info you got there. I will keep this info stored away. I remember having a Cig with 3A's sitting right next to my Fountain, so I measured the distance from the cavatation plate on each drive, to the prop shaft, and that's where I came up with the 4" difference. Never measured them from the yoke to the prop shaft. Now I don't have to. LOL :bump:

Hope everyone has a safe New Years.

RMPRam
01-02-2010, 09:57 AM
Gary,

I have tried both combinations on my straight bottom 38 Cigarette flat deck. I currently have #3A's on the transom and the boat runs about 90-92 mph. I had Stelling's box's with #5's and the boat ran 100-102mph. I liked the box's and #5's but I wanted to sell the boat so I removed them and installed the #3A's. I have the box's, transmissions, fresh #5's etc. for sale, if you are interested.

Gary
763-473-8963

Ratickle
01-02-2010, 10:40 AM
Gary,

I have tried both combinations on my straight bottom 38 Cigarette flat deck. I currently have #3A's on the transom and the boat runs about 90-92 mph. I had Stelling's box's with #5's and the boat ran 100-102mph. I liked the box's and #5's but I wanted to sell the boat so I removed them and installed the #3A's. I have the box's, transmissions, fresh #5's etc. for sale, if you are interested.

Gary
763-473-8963

What spacers did you end up running on the 5's? My step bottom Black Thunder has 3A's.

DAREDEVIL
01-02-2010, 11:57 AM
wonder ,,really what the differents is/would be ?!!!!!

I see non hight advatage on these pics.:confused:

( the cig is side by side , so it makes sense )

On these pics from the 41 u can really see the hight on DOC's #3's compared to the low X on the other 41 with the boxes. Prop hight is the same .

Chris
01-02-2010, 12:20 PM
I've seen a half-inch make a difference with the right props on the 41. And I can't see a half-inch difference standing next to the boat without measuring.

RMPRam
01-02-2010, 12:45 PM
I tried 1", 2" and then stacked them for 3" (the vertical drive shaft has enough spline contact for 3" of spacers). I used 17.5x31 4bbl's, 18x32 4bbl's and the 18x32 worked the best. I have spacers available.

Ratickle
01-02-2010, 01:38 PM
I tried 1", 2" and then stacked them for 3" (the vertical drive shaft has enough spline contact for 3" of spacers). I used 17.5x31 4bbl's, 18x32 4bbl's and the 18x32 worked the best. I have spacers available.

Any chance at all you remember the numbers of all that testing with drives, spacers, and props?

underpressure
01-02-2010, 03:21 PM
Same to you Mark, hope to see you again soon.

underpressure
01-02-2010, 03:26 PM
The "other 41" with the boxes is a staggered 38 Top Gun. They are all shot at different angles with different trim too, so it is next to impossible to tell anything other than they are all really nice boats, and I agree with Chris on eyeballing a half inch. It is even tough then especially with boxes.

Sean Stinson
01-03-2010, 09:43 PM
Look I am pretty sure I am qualified enough to chime in here as well.....As far as the difference in the 3A and 5 it is pretty much the length of the vertical shaft the 5 being the shorter of the two....so it becomes a matter of set-up like Tres mentioned....the best thing to do if you have everything available is to try each and every set-up and see which one works better make sure and keep a record and only change one thing at a time so you can keep a good baseline.....in the Docs new boat it is light so you don't need a whole bunch of bite tocarry the front end which will help the 5 work out fairly well from the start but again you need to start with a good baseline and see what works trust me when I say evryone is different and likes different things......they are like strippers who each have their own agenda!!!!!!

DrGaryDC
01-03-2010, 10:14 PM
I thought every stripper i met liked me, lol

Sean Stinson
01-04-2010, 10:54 AM
I thought every stripper i met liked me, lol

They don't like you........they love you....AS LONG AS YOU HAVE MONEY....:sifone::sifone::sifone:

Geronimo36
01-04-2010, 12:26 PM
trust me when I say evryone is different and likes different things......they are like strippers who each have their own agenda!!!!!!

Sean, that's a classic line!!!

I'm also a believer that everyone is different and they like what they like or more what they have so they try to portray that onto others... ie. their way is the best! lol :willy_nilly:

Proof is in the puddin!!!!:cheers2: