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TYPHOON
12-12-2009, 11:24 AM
After the death of 2 more racers I just have to ask you all. Whats fun to watch at a race event? Is it exciting to watch 15 boats racing WOT at 125 MPH or 3 boats racing at 160 MPH? Would you prefer to see, more racing or exabition runs with exotic boats?
MD

MOBILEMERCMAN
12-12-2009, 11:40 AM
The boats are going too fast. The expectation of it being safe is unrealistic. IMO

Pete B
12-12-2009, 11:47 AM
I prefer racing, as for the exotic, Class 1 has rules, and they have minimum 8 boats. This accident is unfortnate, I hope Class 1 takes a good look at what will prevent future accidents like this from happening. and Jimmy is right, running those speeds is running on barrowed time.

XtremeRacing
12-12-2009, 12:03 PM
I watched the video and was a little suprised how long it took medical to get to them. I didnt see any divers jump it just looked like the med. boats. That might be something they might want to look at???

MarylandMark
12-12-2009, 12:08 PM
I'd rather see 25 boats at 80MPH

TYPHOON
12-12-2009, 12:18 PM
They were dead ON IMPACT. The time factor would not have helped them IMO. To fast for the safety tec. of the day. I dont want to get off topic. More racing or speed.
MD

XtremeRacing
12-12-2009, 12:19 PM
Like it or not the fans come for he big show and thats what draws.

Sean H
12-12-2009, 12:25 PM
That crash was supposedly around 120. So slowing down the boats isn't the answer.

The two most recent incidents here in the states with a cat going over and crew getting hurt were well below 120, one well below 100.

How about teams invest in the safety of their boats instead of worrying about tow rigs, pit partys, motorcycles, cars, cool paint jobs, matching uniforms or any of the other things that come before spending money on a quality canopy, windscreen, hinges, handles, seats, etc and making sure their boat is actually built correctly?

The knowledge, technology and parts are out there, they just cost money.

As far as the question, the fan in me wants to watch the big boats go fast.

TYPHOON
12-12-2009, 12:26 PM
Mark Im with you more boats at slower speeds racing. If some flash teams want to come out and do 1 or 2 hot laps for the crowd to display there boats with a wow factor then we can set up a exabition lap between races. Those boats are realy cool and a crowd pleaser but have no business racing at those speeds. NO more deaths please!!!!!
MD

Davidmnc
12-12-2009, 12:29 PM
That crash was supposedly around 120. So slowing down the boats isn't the answer.

The two most recent incidents here in the states with a cat going over and crew getting hurt were well below 120, one well below 100.

How about teams invest in the safety of their boats instead of worrying about tow rigs, pit partys, motorcycles, cars, cool paint jobs, matching uniforms or any of the other things that come before spending money on a quality canopy, windscreen, hinges, handles, seats, etc and making sure their boat is actually built correctly?

The knowledge, technology and parts are out there, they just cost money.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

As far as the question, the fan in me wants to watch the big boats go fast too, but the side by side racing is the show! IMHO

t500hps
12-12-2009, 12:30 PM
I don't follow racing closely at all but more boats at less speed would be great......how many of us have seem those little 19 ft outboard boats racing around a true ocean course thinking they are nuts.....over a dozen boats within a 1/2 mile of each other!! For me it's the competition, not the speed.

(admittedly boats running 50 wouldn't be real interesting but, something just north of 100 is still exciting.

TYPHOON
12-12-2009, 12:31 PM
Sean, isnt 125 MPH fast?? You just stated that people are still getting hurt at under 100 MPH. Slower is safer,cost less and will keep more teams in racing due to less cost at that level.
MD

DollaBill
12-12-2009, 12:33 PM
The reality is that anything over 100 mph is most likely fatal, whether it's in a race boat or a pleasure boat. I know that every time I see the dial approaching 100 and beyond I say to myself I know if ANYTHING goes bad right now I'm prob dead. But thats a choice.

I think everyone should do whatever they want and run as fast as they want and understand the risks. If someone gets killed they know the program. It's tragic, but we all do this by choice.

TYPHOON
12-12-2009, 12:35 PM
You want to see some good racing, go get a freeze frame video from 2002 and watch a Factory 1 class race at 80 MPH. Check out the Marathon race.:cheers2:
MD

TYPHOON
12-12-2009, 12:42 PM
Terrorist have a choice but I dont want them on my race course. Im not trying to save the world. Death is final!!! Go do it on your own time in the bay. There must be reason why NASCAR limitts there speeds. Im pretty sure they could go a lot faster.
MD

XtremeRacing
12-12-2009, 12:42 PM
That crash was supposedly around 120. So slowing down the boats isn't the answer.

The two most recent incidents here in the states with a cat going over and crew getting hurt were well below 120, one well below 100.

How about teams invest in the safety of their boats instead of worrying about tow rigs, pit partys, motorcycles, cars, cool paint jobs, matching uniforms or any of the other things that come before spending money on a quality canopy, windscreen, hinges, handles, seats, etc and making sure their boat is actually built correctly?

The knowledge, technology and parts are out there, they just cost money.

As far as the question, the fan in me wants to watch the big boats go fast.

Sean,

That is an excellent point, and there are a lot of teams out there that could do a much better job keeping up on there equipment. I know first hand this yr. stepping it up to 120/ 130 MPH you have to be on your game. You also need to have the best equipment u can because it will save your life for sure.

Sean H
12-12-2009, 12:53 PM
Sean, isnt 125 MPH fast?? You just stated that people are still getting hurt at under 100 MPH. Slower is safer,cost less and will keep more teams in racing due to less cost at that level.
MD

You can't race a big cat with a top speed of 125, I think you will see the reverse happen, teams will leave (race other orgs, start their own, etc).

How about making some rules and enforcing them, not just safety guidelines?

Sean H
12-12-2009, 12:59 PM
Sean,

That is an excellent point, and there are a lot of teams out there that could do a much better job keeping up on there equipment. I know first hand this yr. stepping it up to 120/ 130 MPH you have to be on your game. You also need to have the best equipment u can because it will save your life for sure.

Exactly. You can stand at the cranes and watch boat after boat go in the water with equipment we all have seen fail on other boats. It baffles me.

If everything we knew was going into the build of the boats and this stuff was still happening, I probably would agree more with slowing the boats down. That is not the case though.

TYPHOON
12-12-2009, 01:15 PM
What specific rules are you talking about?
MD

Sean H
12-12-2009, 01:39 PM
What specific rules are you talking about?
MD

canopy/windscreen/mounting/cockpit/bulkheads/seats etc...

you can't go race in the top tier of any enclosed motorsport without set safety standards and rules, not optional guidelines.

Fast Shafts
12-12-2009, 01:40 PM
I agree with Randy, more boats per class,=better racing! Favorite class of all time (as a fan) was F1.

XtremeRacing
12-12-2009, 01:57 PM
I have a question if F1 was so great for the fans and the racers, WHY is there no more
F1 class????

Fast Shafts
12-12-2009, 02:14 PM
Mercury stopped building the 500 HP. They wanted everyone to buy their new 525.:rolleyes:

XtremeRacing
12-12-2009, 02:29 PM
Thats silly their are 5 other builder that can build HP 500 if the class really wanted to race..... Tyler built me one a few yrs back and so has Inovation . The big boats r the show that why, that was my point believe me it has nothing to do with merc.

Mike A.
12-12-2009, 02:44 PM
Thats silly their are 5 other builder that can build HP 500 if the class really wanted to race..... Tyler built me one a few yrs back and so has Inovation . The big boats r the show that why, that was my point believe me it has nothing to do with merc.

It had everything to do with Mercury and our not keeping the 500 as the sole engine package.

F1-00 Racing
12-12-2009, 04:14 PM
The big boats r the show that why

I am sure Mike can correct me, but in St Pete 03 I remember 10-15 750 Cats racing, then Mercury gave someone 5 votes and decided to discontinue the 750 and release the 850. How many 750-850 boats are out there now(that race on a regular basis)3-4?

The bottom line is Mercury has affected all of offshore racing(big and small), but now that they dont have any vested interest or sponsorship monies to any race group, what do we do now?

Frank, in the pits your right, the big boats are the show, on the race course however, they have a tendency of spacing out too far, or basically blowing up and when your a dope on a rope, thats not too much of a show. Last time someone told me that people were there to see the "big boats" I decided to run side by side with a P5 boat and the both of us made the front page of the paper the next day, not the big boats that this particular someone told me everyone was there to see. If memory serves me correctly , you made the front page of the Miami Herald or the KW paper in 05 worlds as you were pictured running side by side with TKO and LaveyCraft. In Deerfield 03, I will never forget you running down the dock telling Bruce and I how great a "show" that we put on with Pitman Photo, "It was the best race out there", you said. We were on the course the same time that Bacardi Silver, Snack Attack, etc were. COMPETITION is the show, whether it is a big boats or a small boats, side by side racing is what the people want to see. Funny thing, I remember when you were one of us small guys, you always used to say"We are the show" Dang you go and get ride in a big boat now and your attitude sure has changed lol :biggrinjester:

DollaBill
12-12-2009, 04:21 PM
The big boats are cool. But come on....... 1, 2 or 3 boats is BARELY a race.

XtremeRacing
12-12-2009, 04:27 PM
Its not a matter of attitude change... Its fact when u stand on the bulkhead at KW all you hear is talk about Geico and the Supercats. I wasnt talking about our team Trent but nice shot, the SVU dont fit in that class, its the big cats. You were the one that told me not to long ago that you wanted to run SVU so u could get a sponsor.The Supercats put on a hell of a show in KW this yr. by far they had the closest side by side racing I have seen in a while. Like it or not thats why they are there.

phragle
12-12-2009, 04:28 PM
What specific rules are you talking about?
MD

What are Rules??? anybody see a Gieco, Aquamania or Jbs run in OPA, SBI or OSS??

SBI:
9.1 Turbines Class Boats CAN NOT EXCEED 155 MPH any time during the event. If any Turbine class boat exceeds the above stated speed during the

OPA: Boat speed is limited to 150 MPH at any given time for all boats, no exceptions.

THEJOKER
12-12-2009, 04:42 PM
I'd rather see 25 boats at 80MPH Applause:iagree:

Wazzup Racing
12-12-2009, 05:13 PM
I know everyone is a monday morning quarterback, but why are they in a 160 mph boat with no full time air? At least if you survive the impact, it gives the medical time to respond. First big wreck in a while where the windows stayed in place. I agree slow down the big cats.

Wazzup Racing
12-12-2009, 05:17 PM
Frank I would have to disagree. The Big boats are the show if there is nothing else going on. Come on up and watch class 6 and 5 with 20 boats deck to deck. Doesn't suck.

XtremeRacing
12-12-2009, 05:43 PM
Smitty,

I never said the smaller classes dont put on a good show I have been doing it for the last 10 yrs in F1 and P class. But the fans do like the Big Rigs and Boats in the pits. I think you need both to put on a complete show, every fan has their favorites....

MikeyFIN
12-12-2009, 05:51 PM
Big fields close racing does it every time.

offtopic:

Back in my road racing days we had this class in Scandinavia Called Super Saloon which was basically a continuation for Super Star Camaro Cup.

The Super Star Camaro Cup had F1 world chamions even racing a race or two just for fun, Big fields a lot of bent sheetmetal and a real crowd getter with 20-40th spectarors quite often.
When the Super Saloon came the field changed every year to more expensive stuff like Porsche 962, Audi IMSA GTO etc etc and the field came down to 1/10 of the former despite still having sometimes great drivers and attention gettersīplus the spectators in the last races could be counted by two hand fingers...

In Sweden the guys started the Camaro Cup (http://www.camarocup.com/pages/58/in-english/) again and with the 3gen chassies had 30 car fields and I can attest that in the rain at the end of the backstraight ( an airfield landing strip) on Anderstorp (http://www.scandinavianraceway.info/eng/default.asp) 3 Camaros abreast figthing for space makes an attention getter.
Not even The Ferrari or Porsche Challenge or STCC could be close to that attention and had the people in the rain watching as much as the Camaros.

http://www.scandinavianraceway.info/eng/movies/scra3.wmv

Sean H
12-12-2009, 05:54 PM
I know everyone is a monday morning quarterback, but why are they in a 160 mph boat with no full time air? At least if you survive the impact, it gives the medical time to respond. First big wreck in a while where the windows stayed in place. I agree slow down the big cats.

Why doesn't an org mandate it? Why are "safety" inspections just checks to see if you have non-skid and a kill switch? When was the last time a boat was turned away because it had hardware we all know has failed before?

and this isn't directed at OPA, they all do it....

MikeyFIN
12-12-2009, 06:06 PM
Gotta disagree here..on the small classes like U.I.M 3C they are quite "anal" regarding safety checks and Iīm fine with that, The doctors and diver come for example to every canopy boat at every race and ask specifially how to open the hatches, belts, where are the belt cutters and sofort.
We race with a serious risk all the time with those little Cats and What made me wonder on the Victory in cockpit vid was that where was the regulators and how flimsy the roof looked compared to our canopies with over half the weight of our boats.

MikeyFIN
12-12-2009, 06:11 PM
.The Supercats put on a hell of a show in KW this yr. by far they had the closest side by side racing I have seen in a while. Like it or not thats why they are there.

Those and the VEE classes put on a nice show!

Thenagain seing the Turbines..ok nice for a while but didnīt get my attention.

Steve Miklos
12-12-2009, 06:12 PM
That crash was supposedly around 120. So slowing down the boats isn't the answer.

The two most recent incidents here in the states with a cat going over and crew getting hurt were well below 120, one well below 100.

How about teams invest in the safety of their boats instead of worrying about tow rigs, pit partys, motorcycles, cars, cool paint jobs, matching uniforms or any of the other things that come before spending money on a quality canopy, windscreen, hinges, handles, seats, etc and making sure their boat is actually built correctly?

The knowledge, technology and parts are out there, they just cost money.

As far as the question, the fan in me wants to watch the big boats go fast.

Exactly

Alltough I think we need to accept that some of the speeds are excessive.
Steve

Sean H
12-12-2009, 06:13 PM
the divers do that here too, but asking how to open hatches is a moot point if that hatch isn't going to be there when the diver gets there.

I have seen boats replace the part that failed with the exact same new part. Makes ya wonder.

Sean H
12-12-2009, 06:14 PM
Exactly

Alltough I think we need to accept that some of the speeds are excessive.
Steve

I would agree with that. I am talking Superboat/Supercat and under speeds. Not unlimited/turbine speeds.

Steve Miklos
12-12-2009, 06:19 PM
I am sure Mike can correct me, but in St Pete 03 I remember 10-15 750 Cats racing, then Mercury gave someone 5 votes and decided to discontinue the 750 and release the 850. How many 750-850 boats are out there now(that race on a regular basis)3-4?

The bottom line is Mercury has affected all of offshore racing(big and small), but now that they dont have any vested interest or sponsorship monies to any race group, what do we do now?

Frank, in the pits your right, the big boats are the show, on the race course however, they have a tendency of spacing out too far, or basically blowing up and when your a dope on a rope, thats not too much of a show. Last time someone told me that people were there to see the "big boats" I decided to run side by side with a P5 boat and the both of us made the front page of the paper the next day, not the big boats that this particular someone told me everyone was there to see. If memory serves me correctly , you made the front page of the Miami Herald or the KW paper in 05 worlds as you were pictured running side by side with TKO and LaveyCraft. In Deerfield 03, I will never forget you running down the dock telling Bruce and I how great a "show" that we put on with Pitman Photo, "It was the best race out there", you said. We were on the course the same time that Bacardi Silver, Snack Attack, etc were. COMPETITION is the show, whether it is a big boats or a small boats, side by side racing is what the people want to see. Funny thing, I remember when you were one of us small guys, you always used to say"We are the show" Dang you go and get ride in a big boat now and your attitude sure has changed lol :biggrinjester:

You are exactly correct.

We actually inteded to have what is now called 750 Supercat to use a low cost year long not unlike the 850 engine. We actually did a powerpoint with Mercury Racing suggesting a detuned 1075 ECM that was only available on race day and testing. The boats could pleasure or poker run as 1075 however or whenever they wanted.

When we put out the bid the 1075 was not shipping yet. Sterling was highly agressive and won. Suddenly mercury disliked the idea and the 850 debate was set to begin as soon as they had product.

I like the 850 plan but not without buy in from the fleet.
Steve

Steve Miklos
12-12-2009, 06:20 PM
I would agree with that. I am talking Superboat/Supercat and under speeds. Not unlimited/turbine speeds.

Agreed
Steve

XtremeRacing
12-12-2009, 06:46 PM
Sean,

What speeds does the 750/850 class run in race conditions.

Sean H
12-12-2009, 07:32 PM
Sean,

What speeds does the 750/850 class run in race conditions.


Smooth races, it can be in the mid 140's, most other races, 125-135.

We are in the midst of taking off the deck to replace it with an entirely new deck/canopy/cockpit/windscreen system.... and we probably already had one of the better ones out there. This one will be much better. You can always improve.

Also looking at other areas as always; hardware, hinges, handles, seats, mounts, air, emergency lighting etc....

for the same (or less) money as a tilt trailer or a nice paint job we are going to step up the safety a notch or two first. Although the tilt trailer would be nice too. :seeya:

XtremeRacing
12-12-2009, 07:35 PM
Sean,

Is Doug Wright doing your new deck?? Sounds like a good move money well spent.

Sean H
12-12-2009, 08:10 PM
yes, Doug is building the new stuff.

MOBILEMERCMAN
12-12-2009, 08:15 PM
Sean,

What speeds does the 750/850 class run in race conditions.


Smooth races, it can be in the mid 140's, most other races, 125-135.



There really is no sensible reason to race faster than that.

MOBILEMERCMAN
12-12-2009, 08:19 PM
We are in the midst of taking off the deck to replace it with an entirely new deck/canopy/cockpit/windscreen system.... and we probably already had one of the better ones out there. This one will be much better. You can always improve.

Also looking at other areas as always; hardware, hinges, handles, seats, mounts, air, emergency lighting etc....

for the same (or less) money as a tilt trailer or a nice paint job we are going to step up the safety a notch or two first. Although the tilt trailer would be nice too. :seeya:

That is exactly what every team should be doing. Maybe not the entire system but, a constant stride toward improving all the little things add up. Like the lighting, hinges hatch hardware ect..

MikeyFIN
12-12-2009, 08:19 PM
the divers do that here too, but asking how to open hatches is a moot point if that hatch isn't going to be there when the diver gets there.

I have seen boats replace the part that failed with the exact same new part. Makes ya wonder.

Well if the hatch has flown away it makes the divers job even easier...

Wahoo 214
12-12-2009, 08:40 PM
Smooth races, it can be in the mid 140's, most other races, 125-135.

We are in the midst of taking off the deck to replace it with an entirely new deck/canopy/cockpit/windscreen system.... and we probably already had one of the better ones out there. This one will be much better. You can always improve.

Also looking at other areas as always; hardware, hinges, handles, seats, mounts, air, emergency lighting etc....

for the same (or less) money as a tilt trailer or a nice paint job we are going to step up the safety a notch or two first. Although the tilt trailer would be nice too. :seeya:

It would be nice to see exactly what you are using. Most of us can't replace the deck but some of the other items could be do able.

Sean H
12-12-2009, 08:55 PM
It would be nice to see exactly what you are using. Most of us can't replace the deck but some of the other items could be do able.

I will start a thread after Christmas once the carbon dust is flying.

There will be plenty of before and after shots. Like I said, we are starting with a pretty good one, but like everything else, it can be made better.

imco offshore
12-13-2009, 12:16 AM
Smooth races, it can be in the mid 140's, most other races, 125-135.

We are in the midst of taking off the deck to replace it with an entirely new deck/canopy/cockpit/windscreen system.... and we probably already had one of the better ones out there. This one will be much better. You can always improve.

Also looking at other areas as always; hardware, hinges, handles, seats, mounts, air, emergency lighting etc....

for the same (or less) money as a tilt trailer or a nice paint job we are going to step up the safety a notch or two first. Although the tilt trailer would be nice too. :seeya:

knowing Geico can go much faster,,they don,t race much faster then that, at the worlds their average speed for the week was only 1 or 2 mph over the cats.Scott B uses his head.not ego.

imco offshore
12-13-2009, 12:19 AM
That is exactly what every team should be doing. Maybe not the entire system but, a constant stride toward improving all the little things add up. Like the lighting, hinges hatch hardware ect..

jimmy i agree with that , you know i run a easy latch system,,but we have no lighting ,,,lets put it in, find us a system,,great idea.:seeya:

Coolerman
12-13-2009, 03:18 AM
First and foremost, RIP Mohammad Al Mehairi and Jean-Marc Sanchez.

About the top speed vs racing, I am with Sean on this. I enjoy seeing the limits of technology pushed. It is sad though when proven safety technology is not used. Look at the top fuel hydro's, or the unlimited hydro's. They have safety technology that seems to work well, although it can't always be 100%.

MikeyFIN
12-13-2009, 06:39 AM
That is exactly what every team should be doing. Maybe not the entire system but, a constant stride toward improving all the little things add up. Like the lighting, hinges hatch hardware ect..

Lighting?

Like a strobe or what do you mean and pics of hinges ?

What we use is ordinary latch hinges with the pins changed to locking pins so if someone from the outside need to open the hatch just pull them and open unless he canīt open it from the outside like supposed to.
We use big rig tarp rubber straps which are pulled thru a hole in the hatch.
Can be pulled open the opposite way and still keep the lid down at speed, rattles a bit and isnīt completely waterproof ( both issues can be fixed ) but gets the job done.

http://hcbzj.win.mofcom.gov.cn/www/5/hcbzj/img/200812811282.jpg

Version 1 (Side by side canopy)
http://kohoracing.fi/gallery/mersin07/IMG_4633.jpg
http://kohoracing.fi/gallery/cadde07/IMG_9434.jpg
Version 2 ( Tandem)
http://kohoracing.fi/gallery/06pellinki/IMG_0458.JPG
http://kohoracing.fi/gallery/stogp06/IMG_2172.JPG

After a flip "test" @ 100mph :( (less than one hour in the water with the new boat) with the strap so the pullhandle is outside. Note the split hull and the mat outside on the deck joint.
http://kohoracing.fi/gallery/06airisto/DSCN5204.jpg

Steve Miklos
12-13-2009, 09:52 AM
jimmy i agree with that , you know i run a easy latch system,,but we have no lighting ,,,lets put it in, find us a system,,great idea.:seeya:

George what we use is glow sticks. Red on the air green on the door. They are very bright and reliable. Richie Powers told me how dark it was when gentry rolled and his struggle to find his regulator. We decided on glow sticks because fixed lighting will show you where air should be. A glow stick on the reg show's you where it's at. In 9 years we have never had one not last hours more than the race.
Steve

MOBILEMERCMAN
12-13-2009, 10:12 AM
I like the light on the air line. I usually tucked mine in the chest strap and lay it in my lap. Having it lit as well is better yet.

Thanks Steve

XtremeRacing
12-13-2009, 10:33 AM
Thanks Steve that is a good idea , where do you get them??

MikeyFIN
12-13-2009, 10:36 AM
I like the light on the air line. I usually tucked mine in the chest strap and lay it in my lap. Having it lit as well is better yet.

Thanks Steve

Thats how I keep it too.
And yes It is dark under there.

F1-00 Racing
12-13-2009, 10:39 AM
http://glowproducts.com/glowsticks/

Probally not where Steve gets them, but this site offers different sizes/colors and options

Pete B
12-13-2009, 10:46 AM
I am sure Mike can correct me, but in St Pete 03 I remember 10-15 750 Cats racing, then Mercury gave someone 5 votes and decided to discontinue the 750 and release the 850. How many 750-850 boats are out there now(that race on a regular basis)3-4?

The bottom line is Mercury has affected all of offshore racing(big and small), but now that they dont have any vested interest or sponsorship monies to any race group, what do we do now?

Frank, in the pits your right, the big boats are the show, on the race course however, they have a tendency of spacing out too far, or basically blowing up and when your a dope on a rope, thats not too much of a show. Last time someone told me that people were there to see the "big boats" I decided to run side by side with a P5 boat and the both of us made the front page of the paper the next day, not the big boats that this particular someone told me everyone was there to see. If memory serves me correctly , you made the front page of the Miami Herald or the KW paper in 05 worlds as you were pictured running side by side with TKO and LaveyCraft. In Deerfield 03, I will never forget you running down the dock telling Bruce and I how great a "show" that we put on with Pitman Photo, "It was the best race out there", you said. We were on the course the same time that Bacardi Silver, Snack Attack, etc were. COMPETITION is the show, whether it is a big boats or a small boats, side by side racing is what the people want to see. Funny thing, I remember when you were one of us small guys, you always used to say"We are the show" Dang you go and get ride in a big boat now and your attitude sure has changed lol :biggrinjester:


What i remember about 2003 St pete, was 10 supercats into the first turn 8 came out! Reliable spun, ripped a sponson off, and slashed the entire length
of JEM putting both out of the race. I can only say luck was on thier side, because it could have been a lot worse. in 2006 OSS Cat Lite 10 boats ft myers, and lots of bumping going on. when and if those classes ever get like that again, better be some good driving and even better judgement on the course. when there are 6 plus boats racing for the first turn at over 100, odds are something will happen in the course of a season. This is why SAFETY is paramount, being fit for racing is a must.

XtremeRacing
12-13-2009, 11:08 AM
Trent ,
Thanks for the info. perfect that will work.

F1-00 Racing
12-13-2009, 11:19 AM
What i remember about 2003 St pete, was 10 supercats into the first turn 8 came out! Reliable spun, ripped a sponson off, and slashed the entire length
of JEM putting both out of the race. I can only say luck was on thier side, because it could have been a lot worse. in 2006 OSS Cat Lite 10 boats ft myers, and lots of bumping going on. when and if those classes ever get like that again, better be some good driving and even better judgement on the course. when there are 6 plus boats racing for the first turn at over 100, odds are something will happen in the course of a season. This is why SAFETY is paramount, being fit for racing is a must.


I remember that as well, and knock on wood all safely came out of the accident ok. And I totally agree with you that safety is the most important aspect of racing. Unfortunately, accidents will happen, but hopefully in the future, the only result will be hurt pride and some boat damage, not loss of life.

THEJOKER
12-13-2009, 12:01 PM
Bill Park and myself spent the money to go to full time air when we raced SVL#33. I never understood the reach for air method if you're upside down or knocked out.

MOBILEMERCMAN
12-13-2009, 12:46 PM
Bill Park and myself spent the money to go to full time air when we raced SVL#33. I never understood the reach for air method if you're upside down or knocked out.

It is still not fool proof. You are assuming a water intrusion doesn't relocate it and your helmet on your head.

THEJOKER
12-13-2009, 12:56 PM
It is still not fool proof. You are assuming a water intrusion doesn't relocate it and your helmet on your head.

You are right but we had back up air also. If the canopy stays intact your chances are good. After lengthy discussions with Will at Phantom I felt safe in that boat. We were also were running the bigger motor.

Sean H
12-13-2009, 01:51 PM
Lighting?

Like a strobe or what do you mean and pics of hinges ?

What we use is ordinary latch hinges with the pins changed to locking pins so if someone from the outside need to open the hatch just pull them and open unless he canīt open it from the outside like supposed to.
We use big rig tarp rubber straps which are pulled thru a hole in the hatch.
Can be pulled open the opposite way and still keep the lid down at speed, rattles a bit and isnīt completely waterproof ( both issues can be fixed ) but gets the job done.



After a flip "test" @ 100mph :( (less than one hour in the water with the new boat) with the strap so the pullhandle is outside. Note the split hull and the mat outside on the deck joint.



all those things might work on a much lighter boat, but would be definite don'ts on a larger cat. If you have ever seen the half inch stainless and aluminum handles that have folded over on the inside or the hinges like that with no backing plates that come straight out of the hatch or canopy you might be surprised.

3 point positive latches, handles that cant be turned or bent by the water pressure on the outside, hinges that can take the direct impact of the incident. Hatch edges that can't catch water (recessed into canopy). If the hatch doesn't stay on, your chances drop dramatically.

Glow sticks work great on regulators and escape handles, but we are looking into an actual emergency lighting system as well. It can get dark in a hurry.

phragle
12-13-2009, 01:54 PM
Another item I have mentioned before, but is probably overlooked by a few (after seeing the inside on many canopies...

Your torso is strapped in so your not going anywhere, but is a violent crash you arms and legs will be flying around. What will they hit? Should you injure an arm or leg because it hit something or is bleeding heavily because you gouged it, have you contemplated how to deal with the situation? have you tried/ practiced extricating yourself with one hand? can you reach your air with either hand? Have you padded/recessed whatever you might contact?

TYPHOON
12-13-2009, 01:58 PM
Sean, great stuff. Any pic's of the hardware? I would think a standard latching system and all hardware should be the same on every canopy boat. In an emergency the rescue team is familiar with the hardware if its all the same. Just a thought.
MD

MikeyFIN
12-13-2009, 02:01 PM
all those things might work on a much lighter boat, but would be definite don'ts on a larger cat. If you have ever seen the half inch stainless and aluminum handles that have folded over on the inside or the hinges like that with no backing plates that come straight out of the hatch or canopy you might be surprised.

3 point positive latches, handles that cant be turned or bent by the water pressure on the outside, hinges that can take the direct impact of the incident. Hatch edges that can't catch water (recessed into canopy). If the hatch doesn't stay on, your chances drop dramatically.

Glow sticks work great on regulators and escape handles, but we are looking into an actual emergency lighting system as well. It can get dark in a hurry.

Iīve seen the horror pics yes.
They key yes is to have them on a light boat yes, but look at the lids...they are basically all that you mention plus kevlar carbon and reinforced.
The hinges have stainlessteel backing plates offcourse on the Canopy and I did mention about those hatches without their backing plates, the next version did have them just couldnīt find any good close up pics of those, the might be on one of my secondary harddrives which crashed and lost probably 10000 boatpics there.

I Agree fully what youīre saying but those hatches stayed perfectly on a 100+mph totally sideways 3 barrel roll even that way
No I donīt rely on them still could been a truly bad accident there also.
Regarding the rubber straps they will hold extreme measures as they have to keep the cargo inside the tarp if needed even in a flip with a big rig.

You have valid points and regarding lightning, thats a truly good idea.
Still personally like in aircrafts I hate to have sturdy metal objects close to me.
I prefer the stuff to give in a bit not rip off and be a passive restraint, you probably know what Iīm after.

MikeyFIN
12-13-2009, 02:04 PM
It is still not fool proof. You are assuming a water intrusion doesn't relocate it and your helmet on your head.

Along comes HANS restraints and the more you take up safety equioment the less mobile you get and in the end youīre body cant take the hits despite staying in place.

Sean H
12-13-2009, 02:08 PM
here are some mock up pics... I don't have any final pics on this computer. Even this is going to be slightly revised in the re-rig over the winter.

TYPHOON
12-13-2009, 02:13 PM
phragle, Those are also good points. Most teams have there cockpit well layed out with padding where your legs and arm's are hitting. On the other subject I do like the idea of testing in the duncker with differant scenario's. Call it advanced training. If you have ever been to the pool and watch the teams practice the duncker there are always some teams that realy struggel with the fear of being under water. The saftey divers spend extra time with those people and by the time they are done the person always is in better shape then when they first got there. My hats off to Dave D. and the entire staff that works with him. It's not a good feeling when you are flipped,under water,strapped in and reaching for air. I hate the feeling but what I can tell you is it has gotten easyer and easyer over time beacause of the mandatory practice I have gone threw. Just ask anyone that has gone over if they thought the dunker helped them.
MD

HIGH LIFE
12-13-2009, 02:13 PM
App. 1980-1981 I remember in APBA a doctor said it was 4 times more dangerous running 90 than 80...100+ ??? I would like to see the former Production, Modified + Sport classes come back. "HIGH LIFE"

MikeyFIN
12-13-2009, 02:17 PM
here are some mock up pics... I don't have any final pics on this computer. Even this is going to be slightly revised in the re-rig over the winter.

Looks good but I wonder how do you open that hatch when the pins get bent?

Sean H
12-13-2009, 02:21 PM
Looks good but I wonder how do you open that hatch when the pins get bent?

If the pins bend, which they could, and the hatch is stuck, that means the hatch is still on. There is still another way out the boat, the tunnel. Although, if there is enough pressure to bend the pins, I would assume that the hatch will be gone like the other cases. Hopefully the hatch will stay tight enough and sealed enough, that it can not lift, therefore not bending anything.

MikeyFIN
12-13-2009, 02:23 PM
Another item I have mentioned before, but is probably overlooked by a few (after seeing the inside on many canopies...

Your torso is strapped in so your not going anywhere, but is a violent crash you arms and legs will be flying around. What will they hit? Should you injure an arm or leg because it hit something or is bleeding heavily because you gouged it, have you contemplated how to deal with the situation? have you tried/ practiced extricating yourself with one hand? can you reach your air with either hand? Have you padded/recessed whatever you might contact?

On top of my 3 layer fireproof nomex which isnīt much of a cushion but more than a T-shirt like in Clearwater as per "team boss orders", I have knee pads, long neck racing shoes and elbow pads and racing gloves.
I have from roadracing and karting learnt to cover everything.
Being a Finn (=Sauna @ 200F several times a week) so Iīm used to heat but not get burnt.

MikeyFIN
12-13-2009, 02:25 PM
If the pins bend, which they could, and the hatch is stuck, that means the hatch is still on. There is still another way out the boat, the tunnel. Although, if there is enough pressure to bend the pins, I would assume that the hatch will be gone like the other cases. Hopefully the hatch will stay tight enough and sealed enough, that it can not lift, therefore not bending anything.


Yes I understand that but I was thinking how to get inside the boat if the hatch stays on. As it doesnīt mean the crew inside is alright and the rescuer need to have as easy as access as possible.
From the Victory crash we saw how the rescuer IMO panicked.
Therefore we use those rubber straps... you can put more of them ( Iīd prefer double from the pics at least) in a hatch and they will stay on as long as the hatch is light and sturdy..those of ours can be run over by a truck or shot at with a mooserifle and they take it and weight is minimal.

This is a good discussion and I like it to stay fruitful.

MikeyFIN
12-13-2009, 02:34 PM
App. 1980-1981 I remember in APBA a doctor said it was 4 times more dangerous running 90 than 80...100+ ??? I would like to see the former Production, Modified + Sport classes come back. "HIGH LIFE"

Everytime you add speed the stopping distance quadruples or the energy ( mass X speed ), so does the risks involved.

Pete B
12-13-2009, 02:34 PM
phragle, Those are also good points. Most teams have there cockpit well layed out with padding where your legs and arm's are hitting. On the other subject I do like the idea of testing in the duncker with differant scenario's. Call it advanced training. If you have ever been to the pool and watch the teams practice the duncker there are always some teams that realy struggel with the fear of being under water. The saftey divers spend extra time with those people and by the time they are done the person always is in better shape then when they first got there. My hats off to Dave D. and the entire staff that works with him. It's not a good feeling when you are flipped,under water,strapped in and reaching for air. I hate the feeling but what I can tell you is it has gotten easyer and easyer over time beacause of the mandatory practice I have gone threw. Just ask anyone that has gone over if they thought the dunker helped them.
MD

They should start having you guys do the dunker with blackout goggles to simulate doing it in the dark, everyone that has done the dunker, knows that it it a survival tool, take it to the next level, It can only help that much more.

MikeyFIN
12-13-2009, 02:43 PM
here are some mock up pics... I don't have any final pics on this computer. Even this is going to be slightly revised in the re-rig over the winter.

One question is this hatch flat?
If yes why as a bent one is sturdier, right ?

Sean H
12-13-2009, 02:47 PM
One question are this hatches flat?
If yes why as a bent one is sturdier ?

They are curved (front to back and side to side). The angle just doesnt show it.

This canopy proved to be one of the best out there, the new one will be even better.

Scarab KV
12-13-2009, 02:48 PM
What i remember about 2003 St pete, was 10 supercats into the first turn 8 came out! Reliable spun, ripped a sponson off, and slashed the entire length
of JEM putting both out of the race. I can only say luck was on thier side, because it could have been a lot worse. in 2006 OSS Cat Lite 10 boats ft myers, and lots of bumping going on. when and if those classes ever get like that again, better be some good driving and even better judgement on the course. when there are 6 plus boats racing for the first turn at over 100, odds are something will happen in the course of a season. This is why SAFETY is paramount, being fit for racing is a must.

Here ya go

MikeyFIN
12-13-2009, 02:50 PM
They are curved (front to back and side to side). The angle just doesnt show it.

This canopy proved to be one of the best out there, the new one will be even better.

I figured it should but had to ask to be sure.

Looking forward to the pics!

Is that canopy by chance a swedish design, the same they use for the US Navy?
If yes thereīs some lively discussions about them over on the Swedish boards.

phragle
12-13-2009, 03:09 PM
One question is this hatch flat?
If yes why as a bent one is sturdier, right ?

Theoretically a curved structure is stronger than a flat structure. In the event of a direct impact only a small portion of a curved piece takes the entire hit, while allowing the rest of the structure to absorb/ dissipate the energy. Hence he archway you see in many bridges, doorways etc.

MarylandMark
12-13-2009, 03:37 PM
Theoretically a curved structure is stronger than a flat structure. In the event of a direct impact only a small portion of a curved piece takes the entire hit, while allowing the rest of the structure to absorb/ dissipate the energy. Hence he archway you see in many bridges, doorways etc.

or Volkswagen Beatles...

phragle
12-13-2009, 03:50 PM
or Volkswagen Beatles...

A true engineering masterpiece! While there were upgrades in design it remained the same basic car for decades. I can't think of another car with as big an aftermarket parts selection. From dunebuggies to dragster, people turned them into almost anything. Not much on a bug you could destroy that couldn't be fixed with the most basic tool kit and $300. If you did manage to do more damage, you could always turn it into a bajabug, toss on a fiberglass manx body or scrap the body and use a tube frame.

MikeyFIN
12-13-2009, 04:34 PM
A true engineering masterpiece! While there were upgrades in design it remained the same basic car for decades. I can't think of another car with as big an aftermarket parts selection. From dunebuggies to dragster, people turned them into almost anything. Not much on a bug you could destroy that couldn't be fixed with the most basic tool kit and $300. If you did manage to do more damage, you could always turn it into a bajabug, toss on a fiberglass manx body or scrap the body and use a tube frame.

Top contenders for that spot would be 69 Camaro...new bodies can be had even... the 28-34 Ford V8 Rods.... Cobras.... what else...

MikeyFIN
12-13-2009, 04:40 PM
Theoretically a curved structure is stronger than a flat structure. In the event of a direct impact only a small portion of a curved piece takes the entire hit, while allowing the rest of the structure to absorb/ dissipate the energy. Hence he archway you see in many bridges, doorways etc.

I know Iknow..I just gave politely some leeway to answer as Iīve been criticized to be the know it all recently on the board even :cuss:
Seems you know a lot more of Beetles than I do. Also Bikes arenīt my true forte or Ichehockey for the matter..despite having family friends who has been in NHL.
I know quite a lot of boats in general..even sailboats and treeboat, engines, not transmission, drives or props, Im electrically inclined, I donīt know Sqaut about American Football but love it, same goes with baseball.

So I have a lot of stuff I do not know... but what I have studied in the uni of physics math and chemistry I remember a bit.

MikeyFIN
12-13-2009, 04:42 PM
Hence he archway you see in many bridges, doorways etc.

Masts and sails...

Ratickle
12-13-2009, 08:22 PM
This thread got off target a bit...

I'd rather see deck to deck racing. I also believe the NASCAR example of taking over the US vs Farmula 1 or Indy has proven that most fans feel the same in this country.

That being said, a high speed spectacle, such as LOTO every year, also shows a huge following for the high speed, large boat, demonstrations. A race with every turbine cat running well would be extremely exciting. But I worry about those guys at those speeds very time they're out there. At the speeds they are running, a flip in a sweeper or straight would not be anything I would ever want to witness.

I believe the Amsoil Cat, and the class they spec into, is as good as it gets. Maybe the old SuperCat class was top of the heap for what I've witnessed. I believe there were 13 in Key West in 03. Then an engine rule change destroyed that class, just as those same types of changes have destroyed every top competition class up until now (in my estimation).

MOBILEMERCMAN
12-13-2009, 09:09 PM
I like to see deck to deck.. The thing is some teams just want to stand out. If they race in a big class that doesn't always happen. So they reach for the top and avoid the heavy competition. Now there are nearly as many extreme classes as others. The worst part is the fans get awe struck and the modest classes with the heavy competition get lost at the circus. Oh well.

phragle
12-13-2009, 09:42 PM
with the classes.. I can invision a break down like this working.. you have your

P classes
SVL
SV
Diet Cat..cat lite whaterver you call it..
Big Cat
Turbine.

2 day race weekend. Sat. morning test. Sat afternoon 2 races, bottom half of P class then top half of P class
Sunday midday, 2 races, SVL and Diet Cats, second race, SV, Big Cats and Turbines.

This is holding in my mind (though many would probably disagree) that P class is entry level, meaning that you get your feet wet and learn to race, With apsirations of moving beyond GPS racing to deck to deck racing.

Not only would this keep racing challanging (if you have been racing in the same P# class for years and winning, it's time to step to the next level) It would also grow the sport as people moved from P to svl or diet cat, those P boats would be available for new guys to move into the sport or to move up P levels.

It would also provide the venue with 2 days of racing on the water.

imco offshore
12-13-2009, 10:13 PM
your in big trouble now Rob!!!!!

Mike A.
12-13-2009, 10:31 PM
This thread got off target a bit...


<Maybe the old SuperCat class was top of the heap for what I've witnessed. I believe there were 13 in Key West in 03. Then an engine rule change destroyed that class, just as those same types of changes have destroyed every top competition class up until now (in my estimation).

Nope. Boycott then the genuises at OSS destroyed it. OK, back to regularly scheduled programming.:seeya:

phragle
12-14-2009, 01:36 AM
your in big trouble now Rob!!!!!

What else is new??? I'm kind of used to being in trouble. :willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

MikeyFIN
12-14-2009, 04:39 AM
I like to see deck to deck.. The thing is some teams just want to stand out. If they race in a big class that doesn't always happen. So they reach for the top and avoid the heavy competition. Now there are nearly as many extreme classes as others. The worst part is the fans get awe struck and the modest classes with the heavy competition get lost at the circus. Oh well.


Me too.

Why not put on P classes a mandatory top rpm limit, maximum pitch prop or gear ratio and forget about the gps?
Regarding extreme classes, think a spectator can easily make a difference in those?
I could easily also mistake P1 boats for other classes myself.

MikeyFIN
12-14-2009, 04:45 AM
It would also provide the venue with 2 days of racing on the water.

I would like to see every class race at least one race a day just like in other forms of motorsport running a championship series as offshore doesnīt have a starting grid to qualify for on saturday.

Regarding dominant P racers, If thatīs how much they want to spend and not more then itīs up to them.

Ratickle
12-14-2009, 06:26 AM
This is holding in my mind (though many would probably disagree) that P class is entry level, meaning that you get your feet wet and learn to race, With apsirations of moving beyond GPS racing to deck to deck racing.

Not only would this keep racing challanging (if you have been racing in the same P# class for years and winning, it's time to step to the next level) It would also grow the sport as people moved from P to svl or diet cat, those P boats would be available for new guys to move into the sport or to move up P levels.

P classes are more for the guys who do not have the travel time, or wallet depth, to travel a circuit so they can have a "part-time" race boat or race local events only. In several cases it's also their weekend pleasure boat.

I personally think it is an outstanding venue and the classes just need a little tweaking for standardization between the orgs. OPA's obviously is well received based on the boat counts.

Steve Miklos
12-14-2009, 08:26 AM
This thread got off target a bit...

I'd rather see deck to deck racing. I also believe the NASCAR example of taking over the US vs Farmula 1 or Indy has proven that most fans feel the same in this country.

That being said, a high speed spectacle, such as LOTO every year, also shows a huge following for the high speed, large boat, demonstrations. A race with every turbine cat running well would be extremely exciting. But I worry about those guys at those speeds very time they're out there. At the speeds they are running, a flip in a sweeper or straight would not be anything I would ever want to witness.

I believe the Amsoil Cat, and the class they spec into, is as good as it gets. Maybe the old SuperCat class was top of the heap for what I've witnessed. I believe there were 13 in Key West in 03. Then an engine rule change destroyed that class, just as those same types of changes have destroyed every top competition class up until now (in my estimation).


An engine rule and tight specs is what made Supercat. What broke it was there is always one or two guys (usually newbies) who will temporarily spend whatever and they like to change things to price the others out. They exit the sport and leave a big mess.
Steve

imco offshore
12-14-2009, 09:29 AM
I would like to see every class race at least one race a day just like in other forms of motorsport running a championship series as offshore doesnīt have a starting grid to qualify for on saturday.

Regarding dominant P racers, If thatīs how much they want to spend and not more then itīs up to them.

the NASCAR word!!!! mikey trucks race friday,,,,nation wide sat,,,,,,cup sunday....i don,t think you can cordinate 6 to 8 races a day,,,,they have trouble getting 2 done on time..

XtremeRacing
12-14-2009, 10:45 AM
Lol

phragle
12-14-2009, 11:13 AM
Here is my vote.. on Friday night of race weekend, when we are all liquered up, we have tricycle races!!!!

Davidmnc
12-14-2009, 11:43 AM
Here is my vote.. on Friday night of race weekend, when we are all liquered up, we have tricycle races!!!!

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

2TR
12-14-2009, 11:52 AM
I'd rather see 25 boats at 80MPH

How about 80 boats at 25mph?

DollaBill
12-14-2009, 12:04 PM
Here is my vote.. on Friday night of race weekend, when we are all liquered up, we have tricycle races!!!!

Apparently you missed the Fountain Grand Prix in 2004 in NC. But it wasn't tricycles. It was mini choppers and scooters. And it was UGLY:sifone:

2TR
12-14-2009, 12:06 PM
with the classes.. I can invision a break down like this working.. you have your

P classes
SVL
SV
Diet Cat..cat lite whaterver you call it..
Big Cat
Turbine.
.

What, No http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QF8N8PVKL._SL500_AA280_.jpg ??

Wahoo 214
12-14-2009, 12:40 PM
Apparently you missed the Fountain Grand Prix in 2004 in NC. But it wasn't tricycles. It was mini choppers and scooters. And it was UGLY:sifone:

We had some pretty good golf cart races this year at Harrison Twp MI:driving:

Ryan Beckley
12-14-2009, 12:41 PM
Yea...that makes perfect sense the ONE class that is race EVERYWHERE in the world , but lets not have it here in the States......that makes perfect sense.....Also the biggest class in KW last year.

MikeyFIN
12-14-2009, 12:56 PM
the NASCAR word!!!! mikey trucks race friday,,,,nation wide sat,,,,,,cup sunday....i don,t think you can cordinate 6 to 8 races a day,,,,they have trouble getting 2 done on time..

Daym you Americans allthough I love Oval Racing ;)

I thought more about roadracing/sport car like ALMS/FIA GT/ Formulas an sofort... over here every class goes on track same days.

Lets say first is the free practices on saturday morning, then qualifications afternoon and on Sunday two races each class.
With boats it could be 2 races a weekend saturday and sunday having the tests on Friday or on your own time the week before ;)


Well guess not George ;)

MarylandMark
12-14-2009, 01:14 PM
How about 80 boats at 25mph?

Hell ya- with 50HP max HP egg beaters!!

http://www.zapcat-racing.com/

MikeyFIN
12-14-2009, 01:23 PM
Hell ya- with 50HP max HP egg beaters!!

http://www.zapcat-racing.com/

HERE...

U.I.M V50

http://www.v-racing.nu/Webdesign%20klassidor/dyvik20070902-38.jpg

http://img.unt.se/Article_Images/468_10281648Gemensamoffshoreracing2.jpg

very popular up here north.

http://www.v-racing.nu/Webdesign%20%F6vrigt/F%F6rstasidan.htm

2TR
12-14-2009, 01:24 PM
Hell ya- with 50HP max HP egg beaters!!

http://www.zapcat-racing.com/

And I just bought one.. :sifone:

F1-00 Racing
12-14-2009, 01:38 PM
Apparently you missed the Fountain Grand Prix in 2004 in NC. But it wasn't tricycles. It was mini choppers and scooters. And it was UGLY:sifone:

Thank you so much for that reminder, how about when Mack was on a 10 speed bicycle and challenged Smitty to race his Ducatti. Where was medical that night?:bump::cheers2:

phragle
12-14-2009, 01:52 PM
What, No http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QF8N8PVKL._SL500_AA280_.jpg ??

Diet cat..get bigger eggbeaters

DollaBill
12-14-2009, 02:33 PM
Thank you so much for that reminder, how about when Mack was on a 10 speed bicycle and challenged Smitty to race his Ducatti. Where was medical that night?:bump::cheers2:

that night was friggin hysterical

Next Generation
12-14-2009, 04:31 PM
Racing! Racing! Racing! Thats why we call it Racing!