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View Full Version : Mona Lou and others Bertrams 31'



Black Tornado
12-08-2009, 02:04 PM
Brownie is kindly offered to forward questions to Odell Lewis and I would not want to lose this occasion.
How much Mona Lou boats there were?
In the 1967 Sirois raced with a Bertram 31' yellow-white Sternwinder #90 and then with a yellow-white Mono Lou Bertram 31' #90 Were the same boat? Or according with Richie Powers they are two of the four Bertram 31' of the team of Kiekhaefer?
The Ronda Lee of Bakos was also driven then by Odell. Had she called Mona Lou? Did it always have the three motors?
A Mona Lou all red that became Boss O'Nova existed then. Was it in 1968 or was it one of the four Bertram 31' of Kiekhaefer?
The yellow-white Mona Lou of the Bahamas 500 in 1969 with Moore-Riggs-Brown Bertram 31' was the same of 1967 or a boat?
I post some pics for remember better.

Dude! Sweet!
12-08-2009, 02:10 PM
Was Mongoose one of these boats as well? Charlie, did you ever hear from that appraiser again?

Black Tornado
12-08-2009, 02:49 PM
Here three photograms from the tape "Run Sunward" that it tells the season 1967 in USA including the first Bahamas 500 and the Cowes-Torquay in Europe.

In different competitions the Sternwinder #90 of Bill Sirois the Mona Lou #90(I think to recognize Bill Sirois at the wheel) and the Ronda Lee #80 of John Bakos.
All three Bertram 31' - the first two with two MerCuisers 475hp with two sterns drives and the third one with three smallest MerCruisers 310hp and three sterns drives.
In 1968 Odell Lewis drove the Ronda Lee at the Miami-Nassau. The boat brought the same name or was renamed Mona Lou?

Black Tornado
12-08-2009, 02:59 PM
1968?
the red Bertram 31' Mona Lou then become Boss O'Nova in 1968...1969?
Note the little modifications to obtain from the #70 to the #23.

Black Tornado
12-08-2009, 03:13 PM
Bahamas '500' 1969

The only apparition of a Bertram 31' Mona Lou that I know for the 1969.
But on board there is no Odell Lewis.
This was the old Mona Lou of 1967?
Or the former Ronda Lee? Or the fourth Bertram 31' of the Kiekhaefer's fleet?

Top Banana
12-08-2009, 03:17 PM
Bill Wishnick bought his Bertram right from Carl Kiekhaefer, it was one of the Mercury Racing team boats with speedmasters and it was painted red at the time.

Top Banana
12-08-2009, 03:23 PM
Yellow Tornado was also Sternwinder with Billy Sirois at the wheel.

Brownie
12-08-2009, 03:26 PM
Mel Riggs won Miami-Nassau in 1968 without Odell

Black Tornado
12-08-2009, 03:37 PM
The yellow-white Mona Lou of the Bahamas 500 in 1969 with Moore-Riggs-Brown Bertram 31' was the same of 1967 or a boat?

I must correct me;
not Moore-Riggs-Brown(a mix of two boats crews) but Mel Riggs in that Mona Lou(IV according to Crouse in Searace).

Black Tornado
12-08-2009, 03:41 PM
Mel Riggs won Miami-Nassau in 1968 without Odell

This is known considering that Odell was on the Ronda Lee.
But Mel was on the Maritime 32' with the MerCruisers.

Black Tornado
12-08-2009, 03:44 PM
Bill Wishnick bought his Bertram right from Carl Kiekhaefer, it was one of the Mercury Racing team boats with speedmasters and it was painted red at the time.

Ok. I think about this boat there are no others doubt.
1967 or 1968 for Odell and 1968?-1969-1971 for Wishnick.

Black Tornado
12-08-2009, 03:49 PM
Yellow Tornado was also Sternwinder with Billy Sirois at the wheel.

Almost all doubts gone for this boat of Bill Sirois.
1967-1968 Sternwinder
1968 Yellow Tornado
1969 Red Tornado or White Tornado

NNRT
12-08-2009, 07:06 PM
Eddie LeCarau (sp) did he buy his #8 from Bertram, or was it some one elses first - ? Saw it at the Kings Grant Inn - in Point Pleasant for a while back in the day - on land !

Phil

Black Tornado
12-08-2009, 07:35 PM
Eddie LeCarau (sp) did he buy his #8 from Bertram, or was it some one elses first - ? Saw it at the Kings Grant Inn - in Point Pleasant for a while back in the day - on land !

Phil

The Maelstrom #8 of Lecarreaux was a meteor in 1970 and the boat and crew were under the reflectors for a pair of almost fatal accidents.. Is possible that it was a former 31' of the sixties....or a new boat.

olli
12-09-2009, 11:08 AM
Almost all doubts gone for this boat of Bill Sirois.
1967-1968 Sternwinder
1968 Yellow Tornado
1969 Red Tornado or White Tornado

I was a bit surprised to read that it was built by Italians :biggrinjester::
48733

Top Banana
12-09-2009, 05:12 PM
Did the red Bertram of Wishnick.....Boss O Nova go on to become Patty Lou the red Bertram, that Bobby Rautbord raced in 69 against the 32 Cary of Don?

Black Tornado
12-09-2009, 05:32 PM
Did the red Bertram of Wishnick.....Boss O Nova go on to become Patty Lou the red Bertram, that Bobby Rautbord raced in 69 against the 32 Cary of Don?

This was possible....if existed two Bertram 31' Boss O'Nova.
But Patty Lou (II) in version Bertram 31' it already raced the Bahamas 500 of the 1968.
The particulars of that Bertram for Rautbord are similar to those of the Fino(I)that then it became Fino-WD40 for Doc. Oskar Trost in 1972.
As for the Boss O'Nova seems strange that Wishnick sells the Bertram to Rautbord and then he buys another identical to race the first races in South America in his golden year - the 1971.

Black Tornado
12-09-2009, 05:54 PM
I was a bit surprised to read that it was built by Italians :biggrinjester::
48733

Bingo olli!
I didn't know this article published in Italy in the 2008.
I had the suspicion that among the two "Bertram" White and Red Tornado there was not the ex Sternwinder of Sirois.
My suspect now strengthens that.
Even if in the article the photo of the Yellow Tornado -really the former Sternwinder- reported as first Tornado 30' it is an error of the author.

FLYING FISH
12-10-2009, 03:56 AM
The London - Monte Carlo race dispatches in 1972,state Miss WD 40 was purchased from Bill Wishnick.

Top Banana
12-10-2009, 08:35 AM
I haven't heard anyone mention Peter Rittmaster's boat. American Moppie......as a matter of fact, I think Brownie was on board for one of the wins with that boat.

Toasty
12-10-2009, 09:05 AM
There is a race boat here in NJ (mayslanding). I think it has 1 v drive and the other is straight inboard infront of the cocpit. The owner of a marina, Gary, i believe put big block GM motors in it. Runs very well but is not setting any speed recs. let me dig i may have a pic or 2, not sure. I think its now black with white deck and gold boot stripe white bottom
~Christian

olli
12-10-2009, 09:07 AM
...American Moppie...

The one with the windscreen?

Top Banana
12-10-2009, 12:33 PM
The one with the windscreen?

That's the one.

FLYING FISH
12-10-2009, 05:01 PM
Same boat,unless told otherwise.

Black Tornado
12-10-2009, 06:31 PM
The London - Monte Carlo race dispatches in 1972,state Miss WD 40 was purchased from Bill Wishnick.

In 1968 existed a Patty Lou Bertram 31' for Rautbord.
In 1969 a Fino Bertram 31' for Rautbord and a Boss o'Nova for Wishnick.
In 1970 always a Fino and a Boss O'Nova both Bertram 31.'
And also in 1971 in the Rio De La Plata of January 09 Wishnick drives the Bertram 31' while to the Hennessy Grand Prix of July 15 a Fino Bertram 31' it is driven from M.Adler.
On the bow of WD40 of Trost there was the writing Fino.
There was two Bertram Boss O'Nova and two Bertram Fino?
Wishnick and Rautbord have exchanged their Bertrams?
Seem me unlikely the thesis of the ex Boss O'Nova.

Top Banana
12-10-2009, 10:07 PM
Wishnick only had one 31 foot Bertram....Boss O Nova which he bought from Carl Kiekhaefer. Bill told me a couple of years ago that when he was racing in South America, he blew an engine after one race....maybe Argentina??

Balestreri helped him find a local who would rent a boat to him so he could compete in the next scheduled race...a week later..maybe Uraguay??

Later in the year when either Balestreri or Wishnick could not compete in a race, the other party did not compete either so it would be fair. Real gentlemen.

Bill was the Chairman of the Board of Witco Chemical Co....a billion dollar company even back then. The company was publicly owned and he took his responsibility very seriously and only raced around the world when his vacation days allowed him the time.....as we all know, he was World Champion that year ....done all on his vacation days.

On the HORBA website, there is a link to the website of Balestreri's son. Maybe there is more info on that site re the old Bertrams.

FLYING FISH
12-11-2009, 05:32 AM
Miss WD 40 was driven by Dr.O.Trost of Sportship distributors for Chris Craft,Donzi and Fino.
In actual fact the Fino colours were more of a vivid red than the more blood red of the Boss O Nova boats.
Not a bad rouse to put the offshore devotees off the scent!

FLYING FISH
12-11-2009, 05:58 AM
Another diatribe to fox the devotees.

1970 F.Cosentino drives Red Tornado in Cowes - Torquay.`This boat was built and designed in 1968 and used by Balestrieri the following year`.End quote.Either the dates wrong or there were two Sternwinders,another one in 1967?

FLYING FISH
12-11-2009, 06:08 AM
There are several reports that state Red Tornado was a new boat for the 1969 Wills Trophy.At the moment I tend to go with this ,and that because it was Balestrieri it is assumed it must have been the old Yellow Tornado.I think even our Italian detective has a furrowed brow over this!

tommymonza
12-11-2009, 09:28 AM
American Moppie lines i had laying around.

Black Tornado
12-11-2009, 09:43 AM
Miss WD 40 was driven by Dr.O.Trost of Sportship distributors for Chris Craft,Donzi and Fino.
In actual fact the Fino colours were more of a vivid red than the more blood red of the Boss O Nova boats.
Not a bad rouse to put the offshore devotees off the scent!

Unfortunately this photo from your archive on Boatmad and that I had forgotten it brings the disbandment of the ship on the other side.
The photo withdraws a Fino version with the different colors from the WD40. The hull in white as the original Patty Lou - the name Fino great in the middle of the side - but above all - an anxious space and race number in the style Mona Lou (red) - Boss O'Nova 1969 version.
They are all 'signs' that could be modified in the time but they leave me a little perplexed.
I must to go in the darkened room for a millimetric comparative.

Brownie
12-11-2009, 09:50 AM
You 'furriners' have left out a whole group of raceboats, largely raced in the US and the Bahamas. The cut-down 28' Donzi. Prototype 008. 1967 Sternwinder and Rhonda Lee were "Magnum Donzi's" 1967 Mona Lou was a 32' Maritime with Mercruisers.

Black Tornado
12-11-2009, 09:57 AM
There are several reports that state Red Tornado was a new boat for the 1969 Wills Trophy.At the moment I tend to go with this ,and that because it was Balestrieri it is assumed it must have been the old Yellow Tornado.I think even our Italian detective has a furrowed brow over this!

In the article in PDF that olli posted is said that in the yards Tornado born near Rome in 1968 the first built boat was a Bertram 31' shortened to 30' for Balestrieri. The photo attached to this show however the Yellow Tornado that we know how to surely be the old Sternwinder.
In the darkened room a first comparative test has induced me to think that the Red and the White Tornado were not the Sternwinder-Yellow Tornado.
My conclusion for the time being it is that the Red and the White Tornado were built in Italy and that the Yellow Tornado stayed in USA after the rental of Balestrieri in the last US races in 1968.

Black Tornado
12-11-2009, 10:01 AM
You 'furriners' have left out a whole group of raceboats, largely raced in the US and the Bahamas. The cut-down 28' Donzi. Prototype 008. 1967 Sternwinder and Rhonda Lee were "Magnum Donzi's" 1967 Mona Lou was a 32' Maritime with Mercruisers.

Sorry Brownie but in 1967 the Sternwinder,the Ronda Lee and one of the three Mona Lou were Bertram 31'.
Two others Mona Lou(II and III) were Maritime 32'.

Top Banana
12-11-2009, 10:10 AM
Sorry Brownie but in 1967 the Sternwinder,the Ronda Lee and one of the three Mona Lou were Bertram 31'.
Two others Mona Lou(II and III) were Maritime 32'.

Sorry Marco.....Brownie is correct. You made me go to the secret files of HORBA photos to bring this one out.

We have to remember that we can compare photos of various boats, but Brownie was on the scene at the time.

Here is a photo of the Magnum-Donzi named Sterndriver and driven by Billy Sirois.

Brownie
12-11-2009, 10:28 AM
That #48 boat is the first staggered engine boat. John Bakos drove it in the 500, and then in the Around Long Island race.

FLYING FISH
12-11-2009, 10:34 AM
All those boats you mention Brownie, both Marco and myself have a record of.The problem is in the very early days there was hardly any record made both on film and in magazines,which anybody trying to make a history of offshore find it`s really hard going to piece together.A typical example is,where are all the 16mm films of offshore racing in the U.S.Only HORBA has shed light on a couple.Now go on Boatmad.com and see dozens from the 60`s as a comparision.Other than HORBA we have yet to see any U.S. devotees bring to the table all the relationships between the various boats in the early years.Marco is virtually the only other guy that has an in depth knowledge of this.OK,we know there are people out there like yourself that have a wealth of knowledge in that era,so would it be great if you imparted in detail all the Bertram,Donzi,Formula,Cigarette,Maritime,Memco,Magnum,Scarab,Thunderbird etc,etc boats so the overall picture will be recorded for all time,but that would take a special person as dedicated as Marco is to do this mammoth task.I think it is a pretty big can of worms that`s just been opened.Try making a history of the CUV boats if based in the U.S. and the problems will soon drive you ape.

FLYING FISH
12-11-2009, 10:47 AM
That photo was used on a mercruiser advert,cut down to look like an open sea shot.Is there one of the 1967 Ronda Lee 28ft with 2 x 450hp mercruisers.I wonder why so much was in black & white.All my stuff was in colour right from 1964.

Black Tornado
12-11-2009, 04:14 PM
Sorry Marco.....Brownie is correct. You made me go to the secret files of HORBA photos to bring this one out.

We have to remember that we can compare photos of various boats, but Brownie was on the scene at the time.

Here is a photo of the Magnum-Donzi named Sterndriver and driven by Billy Sirois.

Any intention to want to know more of who those days was present.
But Brownie and I made reference to the 'SternWINDER' not to the 'SternDRIVER'.
And the Sternwinder was a Bertram.

Black Tornado
12-11-2009, 05:28 PM
I must thank the creation of internet.
Is thanks to this that I have been able to know rare people as Graham, Nigel, Charlie, Richie, Brownie,Sonny...through websites as Offshoreonly, Boatmad and not last SeriousOffshore. My knowledge in the history of the Offshore in these last years is grown as an hyperbole of a graph.
I exchange opinions as of information and of images has been and it is fundamental.
Graham and I are trying to complete a gigantic mosaic to which still miss many wedges.
And this mosaic withdraws the history of the Offshore.
At times we perhaps seem some hungry hunters of photo for a mere spirit of collectors but it is not this way.
The images more than every discourse serve for understanding many distant facts in the time that together with the memoirs of the protagonists all of us are able to reconstruct the history of the sport that we love.
I hope that someone of us can continue in the future the work of reconstruction that man as John Crouse, Claudio Nobis,Antonio Soccol and few others have started to make many years ago.

Marco

nthdegree
12-11-2009, 06:29 PM
That #48 boat is the first staggered engine boat. John Bakos drove it in the 500, and then in the Around Long Island race.

Brownie, do you remember what year that was????

I was sitting in a 17' Powercat watching them go by!!!!

Black Tornado
12-15-2009, 05:23 PM
Trying to revive here also this thread an image drawn by the video tape of the Bahamas 500 of 1968 where the Patty Lou (II) Bertram 31' is seen.
As we can notice that Patty Lou could not be the former Boss O'Nova because it already raced in 1968 and because introduces particular that differentiate it from the Bertram of Wishnick.
To notice particularly the exhaust a little above the waterline. From what I know any other Bertram 31' it had the exhausts that didn't go out of the transom.

Black Tornado
12-15-2009, 05:37 PM
I believe that is also to exclude that the Fino Bertram of the 1970 pits him the former Patty Lou Bertram of the 1968.
Some but meaningful similarities among that Fino and the Boss O'Nova Bertram.....

Black Tornado
12-15-2009, 05:51 PM
According from how FLYING FISH had affirmed initially the WD40 Bertram of Trost in the London to Montecarlo of 1972 it is the former Boss O'Nova.
If it is true that a series of clues they make a proof.

T2x
12-16-2009, 11:30 AM
London to Monte Carlo........

Now that's a real boat race.

FLYING FISH
12-16-2009, 12:10 PM
This comes courtesy of the engineer on board the winning boat `HTS` in the London - Monte Carlo.

Miss WD40 with Dr Trost and his lovely wife,on one leg when racing side by side with `HTS`on a flat sea,Miss WD40 suddenly stopped.He had hit a basking shark and got it stuck in the drives,so the lovely Mrs Trost had to push the shark off the drives with a boat hook.

Those were the days.Racing with stories to tell.

FLYING FISH
12-17-2009, 08:30 AM
Can the following questions be answered please.

Where did the red `Mona Lou`Bertram race.It was referred to as Mona Lou III which seem odd as this was the Maritime 32ft.Pre 1968?

Was there 2 `Ronda Lee`Bertrams.`Ronda Lee II`the yellow/white one and the later one with 3 engines,or was it the same boat re-engined.Year 1968.

Was the`Fino` Bertram a one off or did it have other names.Year 1970.

Hannibal41
12-17-2009, 09:34 AM
i am looking for those old time scoops, do you know where i can find them?

Brownie
12-17-2009, 12:01 PM
The red Mona Lou III ran once, in St Pete. Bill Bought it on the spot. It was the first boat with #3 drives. Re: Rhonda Lee. It ran the first Bahamas 500, then Around Long Island, 1967. Bakos was assigned to "dog" me in the "Donzi Blue Devil". I was the only Holman Moody runner, and had won the race the previous year. I finished second, after leading all the way around (255 miles). Ran out of oil from a filter puncture.

FLYING FISH
12-17-2009, 03:33 PM
Many thanks for coming back on that Brownie.It`s much appreciated.

From what you say about Ronda Lee,I take it,it was only the one boat with 3 drives that ran in 1967 Bahamas 500 and Around Long Island.The bit that foxes me though ,is that in the Searace book it says in the 1968 Miami Nassau ,Lewis entered in a new triple engined 31ft Bertram named Ronda Lee.
Any comment?

Bobcat
12-17-2009, 03:54 PM
Trying to revive here also this thread an image drawn by the video tape of the Bahamas 500 of 1968 where the Patty Lou (II) Bertram 31' is seen.
As we can notice that Patty Lou could not be the former Boss O'Nova because it already raced in 1968 and because introduces particular that differentiate it from the Bertram of Wishnick.
To notice particularly the exhaust a little above the waterline. From what I know any other Bertram 31' it had the exhausts that didn't go out of the transom.

Beautiful boat.

seeroy
12-17-2009, 03:58 PM
While John Crouse wrote an incredible history in "Searace" and he deserves everlasting credit for doing what noboby else has, there are some minor errors in the book. I don't have the book in front of me right now, but I am pretty certain that Odell ran the aluminum Maritime "Mona Lou" in the 1968 Bahama 500. OOOPS!! You were referring to Miami Nassau...not B500.

Brownie
12-18-2009, 09:30 AM
Fish, you and I are confusing #3 Speedmaster drives with 3 engines and drives (triple)

FLYING FISH
12-18-2009, 02:22 PM
So from that Brownie do I assume it had 3 engines the whole of it`s career or did it begin life with 2 engines and change to 3 for the 1968 Miami-Nassau or has Crousy got it wrong.

BTW is the `Fino` Bertram a one off,or has it other names.

All these little details I find fascinating when building up a file on the various builders of offshore racing.It`s something you cannot find in what few books have been written on the sport.

Brownie
12-18-2009, 02:47 PM
Rhonda Lee was John Bakos' 31 Bertram that he ran in the Miami-KeyWest 1967. He finished second, with three 327 Mercs on #2 Speedmasters, I finished third in Donzi Baby, with tandem Homan Moodys, and Aronow won in a 28' Magnum. Rhonda Lee was 70 mph, the rest of us were in the middle sixties. Bear in mind that that was the end of the #2 Merc drive for Offshore racing. #3 Speedmaster had better ratios and better props. Strong like bull.........

PJC
12-19-2009, 10:23 AM
Saw this old one sat in a boat yard on the Hamble river last week, I understand it has a good racing history, it was raced by a John Willment, his family still own it

FLYING FISH
12-19-2009, 02:55 PM
Here it is 47 years previous.It`s on a 3 year restoration plan.

DollaBill
12-19-2009, 03:17 PM
Hey Brownie...

Did they use the same mold to make the hulls for the sportfish model in later years? just curious

Black Tornado
12-19-2009, 04:22 PM
Blue Moppie!
But are you sure that she is really that? I would like to see the deck situation of that boat.
Sam Griffith drove that 31' that however few had in common with the 31' that were built five years later .
I am surprised that overseas to the moment anybody comments with great emotion the existence of a milestone of the offshore and theirs.
Gentleman I hope that the restauration succeeds well.
In England he is making the history.

Brownie
12-19-2009, 06:54 PM
The original Moppie was a wooden 30' hull. It was built in 1960, and when it won the Miami/Nassau in 8 hours, 1 minute, we said that that record would never be broken. The orders for similar boats poured in, and Dick Bertram started building 31' utility boats like the Blue Moppie (which I recall was named after a toilet brush). The 31's were the class of the field in those days. Bear in mind that there was only one real race in the world, so one probably wouldn't build an all-out race boat.

BUIZILLA
12-19-2009, 07:38 PM
the Blue Moppie (which I recall was named after a toilet brush). I heard that was Dick's wife's nickname... could be wrong...

FLYING FISH
12-20-2009, 07:05 AM
Just to reassure you Marco,that photo along with others (Tramontana I etc),was scanned from a slide given to me by the engineering draughtsman who worked on the Vosper raceboats,and had these pics from the 1962 Cowes Torquay race.So I have kept them safe for you to enjoy in later years.
I wish we had lots of similar colour work of the U.S. races of that 60`s era.

Brownie
12-20-2009, 08:08 AM
Buizilla, lighten up!

BUIZILLA
12-20-2009, 08:18 AM
ut oh.... :)

Black Tornado
12-20-2009, 09:18 AM
Just to reassure you Marco,that photo along with others (Tramontana I etc),was scanned from a slide given to me by the engineering draughtsman who worked on the Vosper raceboats,and had these pics from the 1962 Cowes Torquay race.So I have kept them safe for you to enjoy in later years.
I wish we had lots of similar colour work of the U.S. races of that 60`s era.

No doubt about your photo Graham.
I'm refferred to that posted from PJC.

Ratickle
12-20-2009, 10:42 AM
Love this thread guys, can't wait to see what comes up next...

FLYING FISH
12-20-2009, 01:08 PM
The boat has been around for many years in the UK under the ownership of Willimet,who raced it in the 1965 Cowes Torquay after it had raced in 63 & 64 under the ownership of Keith Schellenberg.It was recently rescued from the Motorboat Museum at Basildon,before they had to finally close the doors due to the local council wanting the land for other purposes,so now we have no museum for powerboat racing.
Other than the Bertram 31`s that ran in the UK i.e. Glass Moppie,Damian III,Thunderstreak,Ultra Violet,Chasseur,Lucky Moppie, and Surfrider what other U.S. ones raced other than Fun,Minimar,Rum Runner,Swiftwater and Miss Alimony II and how were the names integrated between each other,if that was the case.I would imagine you would need to be of pensionable age to remeber that era!

THUNDERBOLT
12-22-2009, 09:27 AM
Graham
do you know who has Blue Moppie? was talking to Richard Gardner and Ivor Verlander last Sunday at Cowes it turns out SURFRIDER was sold in the states...Ultra Violet being restored in Jersey but cannot find out by whom. Glass M vanished Thunder had that dreadful cabin added but I believe Chausseur to be in Channel Islands
Mike
ps now have 44 pre registered boats for Classic Revival.

FLYING FISH
12-22-2009, 11:27 AM
Mike,the boat should be at Universal Shipyards.Tim Brand Crombie would know who the owner is.

FLYING FISH
12-22-2009, 12:06 PM
Looks like Glass Moppie was on the Hamble River for the 1961 Cowes - Torquay,before it had the cabin added for 62 & 63.Blue Moppie in 62 Cowes- Torquay.

THUNDERBOLT
12-22-2009, 01:20 PM
Graham
that is Campbells yard.....
Mike

FLYING FISH
12-23-2009, 06:35 AM
In 1970 Wishnick raced a 32ft Nova made specially for him by Bertram.You can see the difference in the attached pics on the air scoops,side flag and number style.
The question is ,was this a completely different boat to the 1969 Boss O Nova (ex-Mona Lou III [Red]) and was this the boat that did the South American races in 1971 before Wishnick got his hands on the 32ft Cigarette.
Miss WD40 looks like the 1969 Boss O Nova.
What was so special about the 1970 boat.

Brownie
12-23-2009, 08:31 AM
It was a standard raceboat. The only thing special was the fact that it had the very first set of #3 speedmasters. An interesting side note, when Oscar Trost bought it for the London Monte Carlo, they dropped the boat with him in it, and fractured a rib (on him, not the boat). He raced all the way with a broken rib. Tough SOB.

nthdegree
12-23-2009, 08:44 AM
www.bertram31.com

If you poke around this web site there is some interesting info on the Ray Hunt design that started all this DEEP Vee stuff!!!!!!

FLYING FISH
12-23-2009, 01:46 PM
Yes,as you say Brownie that boat was Miss WD 4O,now I have found further pics of it.I wonder if the ex-Mona Lou III boat was knackered for Wishnick to have another similar boat,rather than mod his 1969 one.

Looked on the Bertram site.If only there was more history on the earlier racing types.

Black Tornado
12-24-2009, 06:41 AM
In 1970 Wishnick raced a 32ft Nova made specially for him by Bertram.You can see the difference in the attached pics on the air scoops,side flag and number style.
The question is ,was this a completely different boat to the 1969 Boss O Nova (ex-Mona Lou III [Red]) and was this the boat that did the South American races in 1971 before Wishnick got his hands on the 32ft Cigarette.
Miss WD40 looks like the 1969 Boss O Nova.
What was so special about the 1970 boat.

Graham, had made already a comparison among the two boats and I believe that they are both the same boat.
If really Wishnick made build another Bertram..32' (?) to then to enroll it in the competitions as Nova (because?)he would not have proposed any signs of the old Mona Lou III as for instance the enormous white space of the number of competition wanted by Kiekhaefer to identify better from the airplane his boats.In fact the space for the #23 is smaller.
Other small details like the identical position on the deck of the two compasses, or the air scoop forward and of the identical cockpit bolsters would reduce those some air scoops of the engines bay and of the side flag and number style to simple changes done in the time.
As it regards what version raced the first South American race the answer it is in the first photo that I have attached below coming from an article regarding the Rio De La Plata race (the second competition in South America was the Buenos Aires-Punta des Este where Wishnick raced with the Boar Hog that Fernandez Bunge sportingly had lent to the American after that had out the Bertram.)
The second pic came from a magazine of the 1970 about the Long Beach-Ensenada(where the article made refer to a 32' Nova Special).
The third pic came from a magazine of 1969. As we can see the flag is in the "Nova" version....
As the flag was a sticker it is probable that it was often lost during the race and replaced then in a different version.

FLYING FISH
12-27-2009, 03:38 AM
All very fine Marco,but wouldn`t it be nice if we had a straight answer from say Brownie,Mona Lou III eventually became Miss WD 40.Yes or No.

Black Tornado
12-28-2009, 07:36 PM
Mercury and Kiekhaefer have filmed kilometers of tapes of offshore documentaries.
This is sure.
Where are they now?
Lost?
Absolutely I don't believe.

Brownie
12-29-2009, 09:14 PM
Fish, yes.

FLYING FISH
12-30-2009, 04:59 AM
Thanks for that Brownie.It just shows what a muddle the journo`s reports can be at times.Our Italian detective will be able to close the case on that one,in readiness for more cases to be solved.Your recall capablities will be tested again I`m sure,so don`t keel over on us.

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 10:11 AM
Ok,starting a boat list....

#8/77 - My Moppie - R. Bertram - MerCruiser 2 x 450 - drive shaft - 1967-69

pic1 1967

pic2 1969

pic3 today

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 10:32 AM
#15/52 - Master Moppie - P.Rittmaster - Holman&Moody 2 x 550 - drive shaft - 1967-68

then became American Moppie-Canadian Moppie for Tim Powell in 1971-72

pic1 1967

pic2 1967

pic3 1968(Bahamas 500)

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 10:44 AM
#80 - Ronda Lee II - J.Bakos/O.Lewis - MerCruiser 3 x 225 - stern drives - 1967-68

pic1 1967

pic2 1968(Bahamas 500)

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 11:06 AM
#90 - Sternwinder - W.Sirois - MerCruiser 2 x 450 - stern drives - 1967-68

then became Yellow Tornado in end season of 1968.

pic1 1967

pic2 1968(Bahamas 500)

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 11:16 AM
#90/? - Mona Lou - W.Sirois/O.Lewis? - MerCruiser 2 x 450 - stern drives - 1967-69?

former Sternwinder? Or one of three Bertrams 31' of the Kiekhaefer fleet? It was the same 31' at the Bahamas 500 of the 1969 for Mel Riggs?
Odell Lewis not drove a Bertram in 1967 altrnating only the two Maritime 32' with turbines(Mona Lou II) and MerCruiser(Mona Lou III) engines.

pic1 1969(Bahamas 500)

pic2 1967

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9617/baham50069.th.gif (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/baham50069.gif/)

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 12:07 PM
#43 - Zippè - M.Fortney - Holman&Moody-Ford 2 x 500 - stern drives - 1967-1970?

It is possible that this boat was sold to Paul and Betty Cook together the cat and became the Mongoose for Betty.

pic1 1967

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 12:12 PM
#18 - Patty Lou - R.Rautbord - ? 2 x ? - stern drives? - 1968

pic1 1968(Bahamas 500)

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 12:23 PM
#70 - Mona Lou - O.Lewis - MerCruiser 2 x 450 - stern drives 1967?-68

then it became the Boss O'Nova for Wishnick in 1969-71

pic1 1968(Hurricane Classic-December 7?)

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 12:34 PM
#53 - American Moppie - P.Rittmaster - MerCruiser 2 x 475 - stern drives - 1969

sold to the young Italian Ronny Bonelli in 1970 it became Mister Charly.

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 01:35 PM
#70 - Mona Lou - M.Riggs/O.Lewis? - MerCruiser 2 x 475 - stern drives - 1969

Probably the Mona Lou #90 in 1967 with the name moved on the sides because the absence of space on the stern cause new higher exhausts tubes.

pic1 1969(Bahamas 500)

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 02:54 PM
#18 - Fino - R.Rautbord - MerCruiser 2 x 475 - stern drives - 1969?-70-71?

it is possible that was the ex Mona Lou of the same 1969.
A lot of the similarities among the two boats.
It's possible that this Fino was in yellow-white version....

pic1 1969 Mona Lou and 1970 Fino.

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 03:05 PM
#4/89 - Red Tornado - V.Balestrieri/F.Cosentino - MerCruiser 2 x 475 - stern drives - 1969-70

Maybe was the former Yellow Tornado or a new boat(built in Italy?)

pic1 1969(Balestrieri)

pic2 1970(Cosentino)

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 03:13 PM
#89 - White Tornado - F.Cosentino - MerCruiser 2 x 475 - stern drives - 1969

Same like the Red Tornado- was the former Yellow Tornado or a new boat(built in Italy?)

pic1 1969

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 03:18 PM
#8 - Maelstrom - E.Lecarreaux - MerCruiser 2 x 475 - stern drives - 1970

pic1 1970

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 03:36 PM
#303 - Quicksilver - D.Silvera - Mercury 4 x 140 - outboards - 1970-71

the only outboards version was the last Bertram 31' built.

pic1 1970

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 04:06 PM
#90/4 - Yellow Tornado - V.Balestrieri/D.Pruett - MerCruiser 2 x 450 - stern drives - 1969

Former Sternwinder it was rented to Balestrieri to race the last races in USA, after the loss of the his Magnum during the CTC.
Maybe it become then one of the two 31' of the Tornado Racing Team in 1969.

pic 1 1968 testing the boat before the Miami-Nassau.

pic2 1969 Miami-Nassau

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 07:11 PM
#23 - Boss O'Nova - W.ishnick - MerCruiser 2 x 475 - stern drives - 1969-70-71

It was the former Mona Lou in red and n 1972 became WD40 for Doc.Oskar Trost.

pic1 1969(Hennessy-California Cup-August 23)

pic2 1970-71

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 08:32 PM
#69 - Mister Charly - R.Bonelli - MerCruiser 2 x 475 - stern drives - 1970

The former American Moppie.

pic1 1970

pic2 today

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 08:51 PM
#123 - American Moppie - T.Powell - Holman&Moodie? 2 x ? - drive shaft - 1971

Former Master Moppie in 1967-68. Maybe the boat was renamed American Moppie when still in hand of Rittmaster.
Then became Canadian Moppie in 1972 and Moppie in 1973.

pic1 1971

pic2 1972

pic3 1973

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 09:02 PM
#009 - McQeen Jeans - R.Kelly - ? 2 x ? - stern drives? - 1978-79

Former 1973 Moppie of Barker. It was the last 31' to compete in offshore.

pic1 1978?-79?

#5 - WD40 - O.Trost - MerCruiser 2 x 450 - stern drives - 1972

Former the Boss O'Nova.

pic2 1972(London-Montecarlo)

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 09:19 PM
#S-3 - Mongoose - B.Cook - ? 1? x ? - stern drives? - 1974-75

Was it this a new boat for Betty Cook?
Very probable that instead it was sold together with the homonym cat Zippè and then modified with a cockpit advanced toward the bow.

pic1 1974?-75?

pic2 today

Black Tornado
12-30-2009, 09:25 PM
I hope that someone can add precisations,corrections and new updates.

FLYING FISH
12-31-2009, 06:43 AM
A marathon darkroom session Marco.Began in 2009 and almost ended in 2010.

McQueens Jeans raced in 1978 &1979 by Roger Kelly.Not sure about sterndrives.Need to check.

Quicksilvera also raced in1971 by D.Silvera

Zippie also raced in 1966 [R.Bertram] & 1970 [M.Fortney]

Mona Lou III [red] only raced once in 1968 Hurricane Classic (see post 49)

Mona Lou IV [yellow/white] raced in 1969 Bah 500 [M.Riggs] & Gateway [O.Lewis].It could well have been the No 90 boat in 1967 but can`t prove it.

Yet to sort Fino out.

Red & White Tornado`s still not 100% certain.

Miss WD 40 had 2 x Mercruisers - total 900hp

FLYING FISH
12-31-2009, 06:58 AM
No pics out of water,but cannot see outdrives in the racing pics.

Bobcat
12-31-2009, 09:43 AM
thank you for posting those pics Marco!

Black Tornado
12-31-2009, 11:13 AM
A marathon darkroom session Marco.Began in 2009 and almost ended in 2010.

McQueens Jeans raced in 1978 &1979 by Roger Kelly.Not sure about sterndrives.Need to check.

Quicksilvera also raced in1971 by D.Silvera

Zippie also raced in 1966 [R.Bertram] & 1970 [M.Fortney]

Mona Lou III [red] only raced once in 1968 Hurricane Classic (see post 49)

Mona Lou IV [yellow/white] raced in 1969 Bah 500 [M.Riggs] & Gateway [O.Lewis].It could well have been the No 90 boat in 1967 but can`t prove it.

Yet to sort Fino out.

Red & White Tornado`s still not 100% certain.

Miss WD 40 had 2 x Mercruisers - total 900hp


In this dual discussion that I think it will break down in 2010 I would have wanted to bring me the bottle in the darkened room but instead I will be forced to celebrating like alls the people they are preparing to do from several days.

In the only photo(very good) of the McQueens Jeans it seems me to perceive the sterns drives. The stern surface in fact it is not so 'cleaning up' as those with the drives shaft.
However there are not still certains.

About the only 31' with the outboards still I don't understand why it is called Quicksilvera if the letter A never compare in the pics.
However I provide to add the year 1971.

Zippè(not Zippie) of the 1966 according to your race-list and Searace was a 25'. After all the first 31' - those designed by Specht appeared in the 1967.
Considering that the boat was driven from Bertram himself is it possible that he was not a 25' but the prototype of 31'?
About the Zippè in 1970 only you have a report for the Hennessy Cup of August 15(but as Bertram 25') considering that Searace for a Zippè boat jump from the 1967(still a Bertram 25') to the 1971(the new cat of Ron Jones).

About the red 31' Mona Lou you always consider it as the III,but this one is for the Maritime 32' with the MerCruiser, being the II the Maritime 32' with the turbines and the I the Bertram 25' of the 1963.
Then I think that for the Mona Lou 31' red it should be spoken of IV or V (if it also existed a 31' Mona Lou in yellow-white).

As you see different open cases they still stay and of difficulty solution without further images.

Now I go in the darkened room to analize the sterns of the 31' trying to solve the Red and White Tornados dilemma.

Black Tornado
12-31-2009, 11:23 AM
thank you for posting those pics Marco!

For some pics we must thank the precious archive of Graham (FLYING FISH) on Boatmad and for some other graces to Nigel and HORBA.

FLYING FISH
01-01-2010, 08:50 AM
Continuing the Anglo - Italian dialogue.

I would have thought the tops of the outdrives would be visible on McQueens Jeans if it had any.

My Zippe references for 66 & 71 are a mixture of race reports and searace info.It seems odd that in 67 Fortney had a 25ft Bertram then uses a 31ft Bertam later on,as seen in the Suncoast film.Poor old Crousy does mix things up occasionally,like on P101 he refers to Boss O Nova as the former Mona Lou III,yet in the 68 Hurricane report refers to it as Mon Lou IV,which he also calls the yellow/white Bertram of 69 Bah 500 as Mona Lou IV.As far as I can see the Mon Lou boats did not have the model number written on,rather like the cigarette Eraf boats,which only Marco has managed to work out which was which.Maybe we have to make our own minds up as to what number we give them.

Going back to Zippe,I reckon that when it raced in 71 it was the cat,and not the 31ft Bertram after all.

So,the call goes out again,where are the U.S. devotees to clear all these outstanding questions.

Brownie
01-01-2010, 10:17 AM
Zenor Zippe was a Ron Jones (hydroplane builder) catamaran. A very brave construction and design. Like all the airplanes before the Wright brothers, the horsepower wasn't available (under the rules) to fly it. I drove it back then. It went 58 MPH into the wind. It was an aluminum/nomex honeycomb job. The boat was owned, I think, by Maurey Fortney, who owned food franchises. He sold the boat to Paul Cook (Betty's hubby), who invented shrink-tube. He didn't have much luck with it either.

Black Tornado
01-01-2010, 11:01 AM
I must say that unfortunately we must make use of our bible Searace with a lot of parsimony and attention. It remains the our point of reference and it stays the base on which then to formulate our hypotheses if we always hold present to avoid to fall in his innumerable booby-traps.
Concern to the Mona Lous I must contradict you on the fact that they did not have the model number written on the boat. You perhaps report to the Bertrams only, because the two Maritime bring well the serialis II and III.
We are able therefore accordingly to submit the IV and V to the remainders two Mono Lou Bertrams and considering that that red not raced (probably) in 1967 and that yellow instead yes I believe obvious to submit the IV to the yellow and the V to the red one for our convenience going beyond what is written on Searace.
Even if we must still remove every doubt on the existence of the Bertrams 31' Mona Lou. Were they two?
Richie Powers answered years ago on one my specific thread on the Bertrams of the Team Mercury of Kiekhaefer (as you see the problem has become a historical dilemma).
The our 7xchamp remembered that they existed well 4 Bertramss 31' in the Mercury Team period 1967-68 before Kiekhaefer disbanded the team.
One in yellow for Sirois (Sternwinder), a yellow with three engines for Bakos (Ronda Lee II) a red for Lewis and finally a third yellow for Stenback (but Stenback had a white Magnum 28-Quicksilver IIs. Richie perhaps confused it with the yellow Bertram 28' Speedmaster of Steve Sirois of the 1968.Hey Seeroy where are you?)
I don't believe that Odell Lewis had three or four boats in that 1967.
There is a Bertram 31' of too much.
Richie affirmed that the Ronda Lee II was driven by Sirois that year.
The yellow Sternwinder stays of Sirois.Ok.
The yellow Ronda Lee goes to Lewis e/o to Sirois and perhaps is that Mono Lou in yellow with the #90 of Sirois that appears in Run Sunward in a race of the 1967.
Perhaps that is the same boat that then it reappears in 1969 to the Bahamas 500 with Mel Riggs?
I believe both a very reasonable hypothesis.
Brownie was offered of intermediare of our questions to the unattainable Odell Lewis that it is the only one that can definitely close the case.
I have asked him these questions. I hope has not been replaced for some the preferable jugs of beer.

Black Tornado
01-01-2010, 11:14 AM
Zenor Zippe was a Ron Jones (hydroplane builder) catamaran. A very brave construction and design. Like all the airplanes before the Wright brothers, the horsepower wasn't available (under the rules) to fly it. I drove it back then. It went 58 MPH into the wind. It was an aluminum/nomex honeycomb job. The boat was owned, I think, by Maurey Fortney, who owned food franchises. He sold the boat to Paul Cook (Betty's hubby), who invented shrink-tube. He didn't have much luck with it either.

However that cat stays an interesting project.
Ron Jones built in that same year another interesting cat for the Italian Commander Petroni. It called Navalcat and it had the cockpit, the engine bay and the sterns drives all in the center, in the wing.
But all this would deserve another interesting thread....

Black Tornado
01-01-2010, 12:19 PM
Brownie do you remember the sterns of the 31' Bertrams?
Were they modified (cutted toward the inside) for lodging the sterns drives Speedmaster #3?
Could the Speedmasters #2 be lodged directly on the transom of the firsts 31' Bertrams that they used the drives shaft?

FLYING FISH
01-01-2010, 03:05 PM
I know the model No`s appeared on the Maritimes,but the point I was making Marco was that I could not see them on the Bertrams.Sure we can renumber the Bertrams ourselves,but the moment I modify my records,new information comes to light that changes these numbers yet again.It would be good for somebody in the U.S. to say exactly what Mona Lou Numbered Bertrams raced in which years and what races, then that would clear the fog.

Brownie
01-01-2010, 03:41 PM
Post 112 shows the two possibilities. The fog is not so easy to lift. I don't recall Odell driving any 31 Bertrams except the red one, one time. I notice that you think that he drove one in the 1969 Bahamas 500, but I do not think so. I remember most of his boats, from the Muddigger 20 foot Alim V-20 to the Maritime turbine. As far as the Bertram 31s are concerned, don't forget Dick Bertram and Peter Rittmaster with their inboard, shaft drive boats.

FLYING FISH
01-01-2010, 06:35 PM
Brownie,look at post 103,where I mention Mel Riggs drove 1969 Bah 500 as Odell was incapacitated,whereas Odell drove in 1969 Gateway,unless Crousy has mixed up.

Do you remember a 25ft Bertram racing in 66/67 as Zippe or was this actually a 31ft Bertram.

Can you throw any light on that Bertram No 90 Yellow/White (Mona Lou) racing in 1967,which you would think was Sternwinder but isn`t.

Brownie
01-01-2010, 08:25 PM
The names changed on all those boats, depending on the driver. Married drivers, Odell (Mona Lou), and John Bakos (Rhonda Lee) named their boats after their wives. Single drivers, Sirois (Sternwinder) Gene Wagner (Milkshake), etc.
Considering that the legal engines of the early sixties were only about 400 HP, if you wanted to go fast, you had to go light. If you wanted to go light, and stay together in rough water, you had to go small. The 25' Bertram was a potent racer, winning Miami Nassau twice, 62 and 63, and Around Long Island, New Buffalo (Michigan) to Chicago and back, etc. The California guys didn't keep up with developments in Miami. The raced our used stuff for a while.

Black Tornado
01-01-2010, 08:57 PM
Brownie,backing to the 31' Bertrams sterns,in your post #49 and #55 you say that the first Speedmaster #3 were on the red Mona Lou of 1968 and that the Sternwinder of Sirois and the Ronda Lee II of Bakos both of 1967 they had the 'old' Speedmaster #2.
Then the 31' Bertrams original transoms was changed for better lodging the new Speedmasters #3 I suppose. In fact that red Mona Lou and then all the others 31' built beginning from 1968 they had that new transoms.

Black Tornado
01-01-2010, 09:12 PM
Also the exhausts pipes go out from the transom in two principal different ways.
In fact in the firsts 31' they go out a little above of the water-line, while in the 31' with the modified transoms the pipes go out very more aloft also preventing from being able to write the name of the boat.

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/3447/bertram31sterns1.th.jpg (http://img33.imageshack.us/i/bertram31sterns1.jpg/)

Brownie
01-02-2010, 04:29 AM
The original dry exhausts were made by Kiekhaefer. They were simply dry pipes on cast iron manifolds. The later ones were Pattersons, and true headers, first used by the Cigarette "Blonde II". The flat area of the transom was larger for the #3 drive.

Black Tornado
01-02-2010, 07:13 AM
Ok,then we can establish two types of original 31' Bertram(a third version include the only outboards version-Quicksilver);
1-those with the first type of transom - year 1967 - that include both those with the drives shafts (My Moppie-Master Moppie) that those with the sterns drives Speedmaster #II (Sternwinder-Ronda Lee II-Patty Lou-Zippè) and with the exhausts pipes low(except the Ronda Lee II).
2-those with the new transom(from a new mold) - year 1968-70 - with the Speedmasters #III (red Mona Lou-Red & White Tornado-American Moppie-Mona Lou 1969-Maelstrom) and with the exhausts pipes more high.
All this should help a lot us to identify between them.
They now miss some photos....

cadillacboats@me.com
01-07-2010, 01:35 AM
I've got one for sale in Stuart, Florida. Was a twin TRS boat in Black and White but looks like it was Light Blue originally. Sammy James who built these looked it over and said it's one of the old Bertram race boats he built for Bertram. Only one I've seen. Call with any questions (772) 285-2266 cadillacboats@me.com Thanks, Cadillac McDaniel
P.S. Odell has seen this one and also says it's one of the old race boats :-)

Black Tornado
01-07-2010, 07:46 AM
I've got one for sale in Stuart, Florida. Was a twin TRS boat in Black and White but looks like it was Light Blue originally. Sammy James who built these looked it over and said it's one of the old Bertram race boats he built for Bertram. Only one I've seen. Call with any questions (772) 285-2266 cadillacboats@me.com Thanks, Cadillac McDaniel
P.S. Odell has seen this one and also says it's one of the old race boats :-)

Have you seen the third photo in my post #81 in page 4? page 5 sorry
From your description it could be that.

PJC
01-07-2010, 10:12 AM
Hi Caddy

Happy new year

Pete

seeroy
01-07-2010, 01:40 PM
Marco - Here are two photos of Cadillac's boat at OFF2009 - Steve Sirois

http://i50.tinypic.com/9lbali.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/2rfectg.jpg

Black Tornado
01-07-2010, 04:31 PM
Thanks Steve!!!
Clearly it is not the same boat to which I refferred (that I posted in the page #5).
But how much errors in those writings in the side stern!!!
It is not of the 1965. Still that 31' in 1965 they had not been designed.
And it absolutely is not the "Moppie."
And then it is well to see has the transom of 'second generation' (you see my post #118 and #120) probably built beginning from 1968 to lodge the Speedmasters #3.
It could be of the Mona Lou of the Bahamas 500 of 1969 or the Maelstrom of Lecarreaux of the 1970.

seeroy
01-08-2010, 08:57 AM
Marco - I concur with your remarks! I doubt that Cadillac's boat was part of the "Kiekhaefer Navy", but I strongly suspect that it was a race boat and would be a great restoration opportunity for someone. As to the yellow #90 boat with the name "Mona Lou" on it.....I suspect that the answer is associated with MEL RIGGS. I talked with Jim Hauser yesterday and neither of us can remember more that two 31' Bertrams in the "K Navy". Both of them were yellow. Bill ran one of them as #90 twin engine Sternwinder which eventually ended up with Balestreiri. John Bakos ran the other as #80 Rhonda Lee triple 327's. Neither of us remember Odell ever racing either of those two boats. Time has a way of fogging memories, but I suspect that Mel may have run the #90 boat with "Mona Lou" name on it. I have to caveat this by saying I was away from the Lake alot during the 1969-1970 timeframe. From mid-1970 on I was completely gone. I definately believe the answers will surface when you get response from Odell, Johnny, Mel or Sammy. I also believe John Stenback and/or Phil Schenk will have good info. - Steve

Black Tornado
01-08-2010, 12:14 PM
.....I suspect that Mel may have run the #90 boat with "Mona Lou" name on it. - Steve

Steve,if you referred to Mel Riggs that drive the #90 Mona Lou in a 1967 race I don't believe that is correct. Again I remain of the opinion that is your brother Bill on that boat.
However those 1967 (Sternwinder and #90 Mona Lou) boats cannot be the same Mona Lou in the Bahamas 500 of 1969 and that Mel Riggs brought to the second place. That because they have different transom.(see the pics)
About the 31' of Cadillac McDaniels he writes that it could be light blue in origin. I have only a photo in b/w of the Maelstrom but it could be just in light blue....

Black Tornado
01-08-2010, 12:26 PM
Sorry,that is the right comparison #90 Mona Lou 1967-#70 Mona Lou 1969.

seeroy
01-08-2010, 02:12 PM
Marco - I just talked with Odell on the phone for 30minutes. New information....He DID race a 31' Bertram twice. I recorded our conversation and will sort out the details later. Odell has an excellent memory, but some of the information is a little foggy regarding dates. He ran one in the Dec 1968 Hurricane Classic (St Pete). He also ran one in a Sam Griffith race (Probably Palm beach to Freeport and back. Probably 1968.) He said it is possible that one of those races was in the #90 boat (previously Bill's boat) with Mona Lou name. The other race was in a red boat that eventually went to Bill Wishnick. He also said that Mel Riggs ran yellow boat in winning Bahama 500 (1969?) with Mona Lou name.. In looking at the photos you have posted, one has Mona Lou on the transom while the other had Mona Lou on the side (due to transom configuration?). Odell was quite certain that Bill never ran with Mona Lou name on boat. Now I am thinking that there were TWO different twin engine yellow 31's that carried the Mona Lou name. One would have been with Odell driving and Mel hanging on. The other would have been with Mel driving and ?? hanging on. I know this is somewhat confusing, but Odell has newspaper atricles that may help clear things up. The bottom line is that it looks like the "Kiekhaefer Navy" might have actually had THREE yellow boats (Two twins and one triple) and ONE red boat. It is also possible that the triple engine boat was rerigged either from or to twin engine configuration. In one Bahama 500 (after 1969), Bill road with Doug Silvera in one of the yellow boats to win that race. OK, my brain is fried for awhile. I will try to sort things out later by listiening to the recording and put things into a logical sequence. By the way...Odell stated that he (Mona Lou) did get your e-mail, but he is not computer literate, so I am guessing you may not get a response. I will continue to try to help you sort this dilemma out. Best Regards - Steve

Black Tornado
01-08-2010, 06:12 PM
Steve you have had the best idea to call Odell and thanks for the aid that you are doing in order to resolve the node of the 31' Bertram Mona Lou.
- Odell confirm to have drove the red Mona Lou in a single race (Hurricane Classic) according also to Graham (Flying Fish).
-He asserts that Bill has not never drove a boat that carried the name Mona Lou.
-That probably he has drove a 31' yellow with the name Mona Lou but with the #90.
And this is already a good attended point in that you can put order re-listening the long telephone call and thus to add other data.
If truly Odell drove a 31' yellow with the #90 this could also be the former "Sternwinder" that for a contest has changed name. Otherwise those would not be explained the #90 if existed a fourth 31' destined to Odell besides that red one in the Kiekhaefer Navy.
I must remember that the 31' red it came in 1968 when in Bertram were modified the transoms of the new boats.
The 31' in second place in the '500 of the 1969 with Riggs at the wheel probably was a new one for Odell in 1969 but it didn't become the fouth 31' because the Kiekhaefer Navy was disbanded at the end of 1968(In fact the boat brings in the bow the writing MerCruiser Stern Drives of the new-born team without the Boss Carl).
About the Bill-Silvera couple on an other yellow hull in order to win a Bahamas 500 was in 1971 but was in the new 36' Cigarette " Starduster".
Silvera won also the '500 of 1970 on another yellow 31' Bertram with the outboards,the "Quicksilver", but according to Searace, with Doug in the cockpit there was only him nephew Neville Garcia.
Waiting anothers your news thanks a lot Steve for your efforts to solve this cases.

Black Tornado
01-08-2010, 08:29 PM
race # - boat name - driver - engines -race year - notes

-8/77 - My Moppie - R. Bertram -Mercruiser 2x450 -1967-68-69 - drives shaft

-15/52 -Master Moppie -P.Rittmaster -H&M Ford 2x550 - 1967-68 - drives shaft

-80 -Ronda Lee II -J.Bakos/O.Lewis-Mercruiser 3x225 - 1967-68 -stern driv. SM#2

-90 -Sternwinder -W.Sirois -Mercruiser 2x450 -1967-68 -stern drives SM#2

-43 -Zippè -M.Fortney -H&M Ford 2x500 -1967-? -drives shaft?

-18 - Patty Lou -R.Rautbord - ? -1967-? -drives shaft?

-90 -Mona Lou -O.Lewis? -Mercruiser 2x450? -1967-? -stern drives SM#2 -ex Sternwinder?

-70 -Mona Lou -O.Lewis -Mercruiser 2x450 -1968 -stern drives SM#3 - red version

-90/4 -Yellow Tornado -V.Balestrieri/D.Pruett -Mercruiser 2x450 -1968 -stern drives ex Sternwinder

-23 -Boss O'Nova -W.Wishnick -Mercruiser 2x475 -1969-70-71 -stern drives ex Mona Lou red

-53 -American Moppie-P.Rittmaster-Mercruiser 2x475 -1969 -stern drives

-70 -Mona Lou -M.Riggs -Mercruiser 2x475 -1969 -stern drives

-4/89 -Red Tornado -V.Balestrieri/F.Cosentino-Mercruiser 2x475-1969-70 -stern drives SM#3

-89 -White Tornado -F.Cosentino -Mercruiser 2x475 -1969 -stern drives SM#3

-18 -Fino -R.Rautbord -Mercruiser 2x475 -1969?-70-71? -stern drives ex 1969 Mona Lou?

-69 -Mister Charly -R.Bonelli -Mercruiser 2x475 -1970 -stern drives ex American Moppie

-303 -Quicksilver -D.Silvera -Mercury 4x140 -1970-71 -outboards

-8 -Maelstrom -E.Lecarreaux -Mercruiser 2x475 -1970 -stern drives

-123 -American Moppie-T.Powell -Mercruiser 2x500 -1971 -drives shaft? ex Master Moppie

-123 -Canadian Moppie-T.Powell -Mercruiser 2x500 -1972 -drives s.? ex 1971 American Moppie

-5 -WD40 -O.Trost -Mercruiser 2x450 -1972 -stern drives ex Boss O'Nova

-65 -Moppie -F.Barker -Mercruiser 2x500 -1973 -drives shaft? ex Canadian Moppie

-S-3 -Mongoose -B.Cook -Mercruiser 2x500 -1974-75 -stern drives? ex Zippè?

-009 -McQeen Jeans -R.Kelly -Ford Sabre 2x300 -1978-79 -ex Moppie


-12 are the hulls built surely(My Moppie-Master Moppie-Ronda Lee II-Sternwinder-Zippè-Patty Lou-red Mona Lou-American Moppie-1969 yellow Mona Lou-Red or White Tornado-Quicksilver-Maelstrom)

-5 boats of uncertain origins(1967 yellow Mona Lou-Red or White Tornado-Fino-Mongoose)

-20 race victories(7 Boss O'Nova-4 Red Tornado-2 Sternwinder+1 Yellow Tornado-1 Zippè-1 Mona Lou red-1 American Moppie 1969-1 White Tornado-1 Quicksilver-1 Mongoose)

-5 hulls still exist(3 in USA-My Moppie?-Mongoose-? 1 probably in GB McQueen Jeans-1 in Italy ex Mister Charlie)

seeroy
01-08-2010, 11:01 PM
More Info - Marco - I just watched "Run Sunward" VERY CLOSELY...At 17:15 the narrator, John Healey (Narration written by John Crouse), talks about Bill while clearly the boat, seen from the left side, is #90 with Mona Lou on the transom. Looking carefully at the driver you will notice that he is wearing SHORT SLEEVES. At about 18:15 the boat (#90/Mona Lou) is shown again from the left side and once again driver has SHORT SLEEVES. A second later the picture switches to a right side close up view. You cannot see either the boat number or name...BUT the driver is wearing a LONG SLEEVE jacket. Also, by helmet design and the fact that he was my brother, I am certain that it is Bill. I do not believe the earlier SHORT SLEEVE driver is Bill. These two short sequences were pieced together to make it seem they were the same moment, boat, and people. Additionally there are several other sequences in the movie with #90 and Sternwinder name. Those other sequences are also clearly of Bill driving. The whole movie is a compilation of sequences taken from many races/events and pieced together to make the whole movie. It is only very subtle differences that give evidence of the facts. I do not know who the SHORT SLEEVE driver is but I have to believe that it is either Odell or Mel. I think it is probably Mel in the Bahama 500. The other dilemma remaining is about the photo you have provided with Mona Lou name on the side as opposed to the stern. I think that is the Odell / Sam Griffith race (Palm Beach to Freeport and back). NOW I will review the "Mercury Film Archive" Vol 2 "The Bahama 500". WOW! You really have me intrigued about this whole thing. I feel like Sherlock Holmes trying to figure out who farted in church. :ack2: - Steve

seeroy
01-08-2010, 11:44 PM
OK Marco, I just watched the Mercury Classics 1968 Bahama 500 movie closely. No new clues there. Good clean clear video of Odell in#49 Maritime, Bill in #90 Sternwinder, and John Bakos in #80 Rhonda Lee. Also some good shots of Jim Tebo and Me in #202 Starr. That's enough for now. Tomorrow is all day with Iris and our 3 and 5 year old Grand Daughters. After that I will be more worn out than I ever was after a boat race. Sometime after the weekend I will try to analyze the phone recording with Odell. Eventually I will also call Johnny and Mel to get their remembrances of the Bertram chronicles. I hope this has all been helpful rather than too confusing. Good Night and Best Regards - Steve Sirois

FLYING FISH
01-09-2010, 04:38 AM
I have a report stating that `Maelstrom` was painted yellow,Marco.

Good to see all this feedback coming through to sort the history out.I see the Marco detective agency has now gone International.Wonderful!

That 1968 Bahamas 500 film is typical,fudging the shots from different races.At least with those Cowes - Torquay films there is none of that.

Black Tornado
01-09-2010, 12:04 PM
Sherlock(Seeroy) and Clouseau (me) it seem evening yesterday were puttinges at the same time to analyze Run Sunward!
About the long and short sleeves you are right.
Those little second ones of an other contest had been inserted in the wrong context.
But the short sleeves Bill had as demonstrate these frames taken in the first minutes of Run Sunward when the narrator said of Bill "smart and daring".
The #90 Mona Lou is filmed in the context of the race Long Beach to San Francisco announced also from the narrator. It demonstrates the frame where the Mona Lou with turbines duelling with the single-engine Magnum of Aronow. Look the background and you will notice the coast like in the photo at page #75 of Searace that Crouse places taken during that contest long the northern Californian coasts.
Now if it observes carefully the #90 Mona Lou at 17:15 and 18:15 you see the same coast. Therefore those #90 Mona Lou run the Long Beach to San Francisco race of October 21-22 1967. Who was aboard? Sure not Odell that was engaged to win on the Maritime with turbines.
Maybe Riggs? It's possible since in that race with Odell wasn't Mel.Shortly after the race Odell is with one other co-driver that I have not recognized(see the frame attached below).
Therefore it could not be the Gateway race that Odell said you yesterday because that contest of June 16 went from West Palm Beach to Grand Bahamas and the coast is not similar those sandy of Florida and the Bahamas. Unfortunately Searace does not explain with that boats ran Bill Sirois and Odell Lewis.Crouse only confused Odell with Merrik Lewis saying that Odell was in the cockpit of the new Thunderbird built(for Merrik) in Italy,Levi's design and that with Dick Genth, sank near the finish at Lucaya("Aboard was the "500" winner Lewis who,aside from having a distinct dislike of racing in the dark,couldn't swim!").
Backing to the #90 Mona Lou that boat it had of the little details that shared with the Sternwinder (to see the frames below). See the sticker of the Crowell pumps(between the flag and the sticker of MerCruiser) on right side of the Sternwinder and absent in both the boats on their left side. The identical position of the compasses. And the written Mona Lou seems made hastily.
However at this point task that a call to Mel Riggs could be useful.
Now rest your mind and enjoy this week end with yours.:seeya:

Black Tornado
01-09-2010, 12:10 PM
Coasts comparison. Could it be the Long Beach-San Francisco race.

Black Tornado
01-09-2010, 12:20 PM
Who is with Odell?

Black Tornado
01-09-2010, 12:30 PM
Comparison with the left sides of the #90 Sternwinder(first two frames) and the #90 Mona Lou.
In the third frame look the co-driver with the white short sleeves he seem the same behind Bill in the boat in post #135-second frame(a simple coincidence?).

Black Tornado
01-09-2010, 01:24 PM
I have a report stating that `Maelstrom` was painted yellow,Marco.

Good to see all this feedback coming through to sort the history out.I see the Marco detective agency has now gone International.Wonderful!

That 1968 Bahamas 500 film is typical,fudging the shots from different races.At least with those Cowes - Torquay films there is none of that.

'Well'! This was the other possibility for the color of the Maelstrom and naturally had to be the yellow!
Run Sunward is truly a mix of contests. Who has made the montage has amused himself to follow the cinematographic rules!
In the final phase when it is spoken about the European races(CT excluded) I have made great hard work to cut the mix between the Naples Trophy, Viareggio-Bastia and the Dauphin D' Or.:mad:
However the Investigations Team it seems to have acquired a new member that for affinity of language and literary correctness will have to be entrusted to you,Doctor Watson.
Don't worry Steve,me and Flying Fish we collaborate together and we joke to be Clouseau,little hasty and bungler and Doctor Watson,more riflexive and accurate.:biggrinjester:

Black Tornado
01-09-2010, 02:11 PM
[QUOTE=seeroy;410787], The other dilemma remaining is about the photo you have provided with Mona Lou name on the side as opposed to the stern. I think that is the Odell / Sam Griffith race (Palm Beach to Freeport and back).

Here the complete photos. In the first case,the Yellow Tornado-Sternwinder probably spotted during the 1968 Miami-Nassau or tests before the race.
In the second is Riggs duelling with Aronow in the Bahamas 500 of 1969.

seeroy
01-09-2010, 04:17 PM
Who is with Odell?

That is Ed Leslie with Odell. Ed also rode with Bill in the 1st (1967) Bahama 500. They ran a 28' yellow Magnum "Old Yellar". They broke a motor mount and did not finish. - Steve

seeroy
01-09-2010, 04:28 PM
Comparison with the left sides of the #90 Sternwinder(first two frames) and the #90 Mona Lou.
In the third frame look the co-driver with the white short sleeves he seem the same behind Bill in the boat in post #135-second frame(a simple coincidence?).

The two photos on the left show Bill taxiing out with Wayne Vicker as his Co-pilot. I know for certain that Wayne rode with Bill in the December 1967 Hurricane Classic (St Petersburg). I don't know if Wayne ever rode with Bill again. Perhaps that gives a clue as to those photos being Hurricane Classic. By the way I rode with Wayne in the 1967 Bahama 500 in a 23' Seacraft with twin outboards. We had a throttle cable cable come loose early and fell way behind. When we got to Nassau, we took a room for the night and continued at daybreak in the morning, thus finished in something like 30+ hours....but we DID finish. - Steve (Sherlock) :seeya:

seeroy
01-09-2010, 05:24 PM
No doubt you have seen the Mercury Classics video of the 1968 Bahama 500 at the following link. ALL of that video is of that specific race and preparation thereto.
No "fudging" in this one- Steve

http://www.vimeo.com/5671455

Black Tornado
01-09-2010, 06:05 PM
I just have extrapolated tens of frames from the video Run Sunward that of the Bahamas 500 of 1968.
The quality of the images of Bahamas 500 is better than Run Sunward that turns out faded.

Black Tornado
01-09-2010, 06:49 PM
The two photos on the left show Bill taxiing out with Wayne Vicker as his Co-pilot. I know for certain that Wayne rode with Bill in the December 1967 Hurricane Classic (St Petersburg). I don't know if Wayne ever rode with Bill again. Perhaps that gives a clue as to those photos being Hurricane Classic. By the way I rode with Wayne in the 1967 Bahama 500 in a 23' Seacraft with twin outboards. We had a throttle cable cable come loose early and fell way behind. When we got to Nassau, we took a room for the night and continued at daybreak in the morning, thus finished in something like 30+ hours....but we DID finish. - Steve (Sherlock) :seeya:

About the photos that could be in the Hurricane Classic I never have not been in Florida (unfortunately) but I don't believe that the coast around St.Petersburg is like that in the background.:confused:

I thought that Bill had run Bahamas 500 of 1967 with the 31' Bertram….therefore the Long Beach-San Francisco could be the first race with the 31' ….the fact could explained the hybrid #90 with the name Mona Lou in the back… those 31' that it was for Odell maybe then was given hastily to Bill….Excused me if I continuous to assume.:(

Steve which was the race number(#909?) and name of your 23' Seacraft?

seeroy
01-09-2010, 08:10 PM
About the photos that could be in the Hurricane Classic I never have not been in Florida (unfortunately) but I don't believe that the coast around St.Petersburg is like that in the background.:confused:

I thought that Bill had run Bahamas 500 of 1967 with the 31' Bertram….therefore the Long Beach-San Francisco could be the first race with the 31' ….the fact could explained the hybrid #90 with the name Mona Lou in the back… those 31' that it was for Odell maybe then was given hastily to Bill….Excused me if I continuous to assume.:(

Steve which was the race number(#909?) and name of your 23' Seacraft?

Those extracts of the #202 Starr I (29' Seacraft w/3 outboards) are 1968 Bahama 500 photos. Jim Tebo is driving and I am behind him....holding on. I will post photos of 1967 & 1969 Bahama 500's. 1967 23' Seacraft with Wayne Vicker and I was #43. My 1969 Bahama 500 boat was a 4 engine 32' Cary #909 "Speedmaster". I also drove a 28' Bertram Nautec w/3 outboards #909 in Miami Nassau and Around Long Island. I also ran #505 28' Memco w/4engines and #707 28' Memco w/3 engines in a couple of races.

I am quite certain (and Odell confirmed) that the first ever race for the 31' Bertram Nautecs was the December 1967 Hurricane Classic (St Petersburg). I will analyze my recorded conversation with Odell later. During this next week I will call Bakos, Riggs, and James to confirm and resolve dilemma.

-Steve

Black Tornado
01-10-2010, 12:00 PM
Meantime, here a Gold Medal trivial.
This photo is published on page 71 of Searace and Crouse places it as the first start of the Hennessy-Long Island of 1967 that was suspended soon after because fog. The start then was replied and the race was won by Dick Genth that time drove the "Thunderbird IV" 28' Formula single engine and cockpit in tandem.
To the left of the photo can be noticed the #90 31' Bertram.
In the 1968 Bill Sirois won the race driving that Bertram with the son of Carl Kekhaefer, Fred,aboard.
The question is if it is corrected the year 1967 or instead was 1968?
Who has an image better than this where can be recognized other boats? However who recognize in this image?:grouphug:

Brownie
01-10-2010, 02:46 PM
That is '67. In the small picture, behind the light colored boat is the Blue Devil, #86. That is me driving. I had won the previous year. Mr K had John Bakos stuck to me, in a red low cut 28' Donzi/Magnum. I led the race to Shinnecock Inlet, with John right behind. He had a little speed on me. At Shinnecock, a Coast Guard chopper dropped down in front of me with a sign that said "Race Cancelled, fog a Montauk, go back". I slowed down, John didn't. I passed him, he slowed down, etc. We finally slowed down, and gathered up the front runners and started back (about 60 miles). Imagine the faces of the slower boats when they saw the entire fleet coming straight toward them!
The next day, I led all the way to the last bridge, about 245 miles, and ran out of oil, due to a punctured oil filter. We scooped up boiling oil from the bilge and dumped it in. Genth and Stan Adrian passed us while we were oiling, and we chased them down, except for about 100 feet. We had beaten Aronow the previous year by 9 feet! Talk about close racing.................

Black Tornado
01-10-2010, 05:12 PM
Thanks Brownie for the savory story of the "two" races of Long Island.
I had recognized your "Donzi Blue Devil" but not could read the race number I didn't know if were you in 1967 or Couzens in 1968, also if in the 1968 list of the racers two missed only leaving ones and therefore I was almost certain that Couzens there was not in that race.
Besides in the meantime I have found a 1967 original newspaper page where it speaks of this race and with the same photo of that start.
Then it is certain that a 31' Bertram with the #90 were already racing the 19 July 1967.
It stays only to understand if at the wheel there was Mel Riggs or Odell Lewis, Bill Sirois or somebody else.

Black Tornado
01-10-2010, 05:29 PM
Brownie do you remember the entire course of the Long Island Marathon race?
Montauk was the turning point of the race?

Brownie
01-10-2010, 05:42 PM
Two things. Odell was driving a little single engine ****box like Dick Genth's. Dick blew his engine the first day, and Odell gave him his. Montauk is the far end of Long Island. George Couzens rode with me (his boat), and then on his own with my mechanic, Big Dirty and then Smitty. In 68, Bill Wishnick and I ran the Supernova, with twin engines, one shaft. Led for a while, lost the rudder. I finished alone, on the trimtabs.

seeroy
01-10-2010, 06:18 PM
1st color picture is 1967 Pre-Bahama 500 Gaggle. We had just run all boats for a photo at Lake X. The red boat #48 is the Magnum Donzi of Johnny Bakos that Brownie referred to. The 40 sreies of numbers was on all of our boats for that particular race. The yellow #47 boat is Bill Sirois in the same boat/power configuration as Bakos. Bill also ran that boat in at least one more race with the #427 attached. The #43 boat is Wayne Vicker and Me in 23' Seacraft twin outboard. The second black and white photo is a closeup with Johnny Bakos and Phil Schenk.
http://i46.tinypic.com/29przfd.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/2uf6ell.jpg

Black Tornado
01-10-2010, 06:46 PM
Then the #47-427 were the "Old Yellar II"?!
To that boat it exploded the engine bay with Aronow on board the following June 16 in the Gateway Marathon.
Did it go lost totally?
And the #46 white similar to the others two DonziMagnum?

seeroy
01-10-2010, 07:39 PM
Marco - I just talked to Sammy James for 30 minutes. He also told me that Bill never ran the #90 Bertram with "Mona Lou" name on it. He said the only times that "Mona Lou" name was on 32' Bertram Nautec was with Odell driving and and once with Mel Riggs driving. He also said that Kiekhaefer bought 4 32' Bertram Nautecs. One was red twin and Odell won 1968 Hurricane Classic with it and then it went to Bill Wishnick. There was the yellow twin #90 boat that Bill ran which eventually went to Balestrieri. There was the yellow triple engine that Bakos ran in 1967 Hurricane Classic and 1968 Bahama 500. I don't know what became of that boat. And there was a yellow 4 engine outboard that John Steback ran somewhere. That boat went to Doug Silvera and he won a Bahama 500 with it. The following year Silvera won the Bahama 500 again in a Magnum inboard with Bill riding with him. Sorry...But I still don't believe that Bill ever raced the #90 boat with "Mona Lou" name on it, and both Odell Lewis and Sammy James emphatically concur with that. I guess the inquisition continues. Next I will speak to Johnny Bakos and then Mel Riggs. Hopefully you understand that I am having fun with this. TTFN - Steve :boxing_smiley:

seeroy
01-10-2010, 07:42 PM
Then the #47-427 were the "Old Yellar II"?!
To that boat it exploded the engine bay with Aronow on board the following June 16 in the Gateway Marathon.
Did it go lost totally?
And the #46 white similar to the others two DonziMagnum?

Actually the #46 is an outboard. I just can't remember if that is a John Stenback 3 Magnum boat or a 4 engine Chet Strickland Cary.

seeroy
01-10-2010, 07:49 PM
two photos of my #909 28' Bertram "Speedmaster"
AND...Yes, 47/427 was "Old Yellar II"

http://i49.tinypic.com/2a5zrj8.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/ayu2ir.jpg

seeroy
01-10-2010, 08:00 PM
My 4 engine 32' Cary "Super Speedmaster" in 1969 Bahama 500 with Ralph Seavy riding. Chet Strickland had previously run this boat somewhere. Thus my confusion about whether #46 in 500 Gaggle photo is Chet or John Stenback.
http://i47.tinypic.com/124bnsk.jpg

Business end!
http://i47.tinypic.com/11j3udu.jpg

Black Tornado
01-10-2010, 08:35 PM
Oh! Steve I have forgotten to say you to greet Sammy that I had known here in Viareggio with Tom Gentry, Dick Banks and John Crouse during the 1984 Worlds.
And then there was to ask if he knew if the firsts 31'(or 32?') Bertram transoms with the drives shafts could be modified for lodging the new Speedmasters #3.

Black Tornado
01-10-2010, 08:55 PM
Marco - The following year Silvera won the Bahama 500 again in a Magnum inboard with Bill riding with him. Hopefully you understand that I am having fun with this. TTFN - Steve :boxing_smiley:

That year-1971-Doug and Bill won the '500' with the 36' Cigarette yellow-white 'Starduster'! :boxing_smiley:

seeroy
01-10-2010, 08:57 PM
Oh! Steve I have forgotten to say you to greet Sammy that I had known here in Viareggio with Tom Gentry, Dick Banks and John Crouse during the 1984 Worlds.
And then there was to ask if he knew if the firsts 31'(or 32?') Bertram transoms with the drives shafts could be modified for lodging the new Speedmasters #3.

Sammy said he remembers you. He said that the 32' transom had to be "cut" in order to lodge Mercruiser as opposed to V drive. When he "cut" the transom, the boat actually measured 31', but they continued to call it 32'.

Black Tornado
01-10-2010, 09:07 PM
Sammy said he remembers you. He said that the 32' transom had to be "cut" in order to lodge Mercruiser as opposed to V drive. When he "cut" the transom, the boat actually measured 31', but they continued to call it 32'.

That 32' they were in fiberglass. Do you think that it was possible to cut the transom and 'glue' a new so big piece without weakening the whole same transom?
Or was modified the mould and therefore that first 32' with the V-drives they remained so and did they do the new 31'?
This I wanted to understand.:huh:

seeroy
01-10-2010, 10:09 PM
That 32' they were in fiberglass. Do you think that it was possible to cut the transom and 'glue' a new so big piece without weakening the whole same transom?
Or was modified the mould and therefore that first 32' with the V-drives they remained so and did they do the new 31'?
This I wanted to understand.:huh:

Don't know. Sammy is going to send some Bertram history documents to me via US Mail. When I get it I will call him again and ask how they did it. I'm tired and going to bed early. What the heck are you doing up so late. Must be quite late over there..........ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

boatnuts
01-11-2010, 03:05 PM
I realize by comparison to the Bertrams being talked about in this thread that the Bertram 24 is just a tadpole but does anyone on here have any knowledge of the origins of Bertram 24 hull. It is very different from both the 20 & 25 models. The hull is V'd to the heel and the strakes are different. The rear 3/4 of the bottom has a striking resemblance to 2 boats I have previously owned (24 ft. Cigarette & 25 ft. Magnum). I'd post pics of the bottom taken when it was upside down last month but I have no URL to link.

Black Tornado
01-20-2010, 05:52 PM
Trying to use a cardiac defibrillator to save this thread here the images that my friend Fabrizio has sent me of the 31' Bertram "Rio" .
With this boat the Panamianian Josè Arango won the President's Cup race in the 1981.
At the first sight I was certain to find me in front of the 1967 Fortney ex Zippè but then looking at her transom my certainties have staggered.
Zippè was a Bertram-32' - that I would define of 'first generation', while the "Rio" has the modified transom.
Then new boat also this? Or is it the ex Mona Lou of 1969?

Black Tornado
01-20-2010, 05:59 PM
About the Mona Lou for Riggs in the Bahamas 500 of 1969, few days ago I have received from US a series of pages of contemporary Motor Boating magazine purchased on eBay. In the specific one in the pages about the Bahamas 500 is written that that Mona Lou was a new boat.

Black Tornado
01-20-2010, 06:10 PM
About the Quicksilver 31' Bertram with outboards is confirmed what said Sammy James. The boat was for Stenback in 1969.
In fact in the photo below(probably the start of the Bahamas 500 1969) in the background at right is seen the outline of the My Moppie of Bertram that raced for the last time that year.

Black Tornado
01-20-2010, 06:17 PM
Again from a photo found online by my friend Fabrizio the Patty Lou of Rautbord that clearly shows the V-drive system of the firsts 32'Bertram.

Black Tornado
01-20-2010, 06:22 PM
Hey Brownie can you tell something of Russ Specht and who designs the Bertrams in that years?

Black Tornado
01-20-2010, 06:33 PM
reproposing the list part two

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

race # - boat name - driver - engines -race year - notes

-8/77 - My Moppie - R. Bertram -Mercruiser 2x450 -1967-68-69 - drives shaft

-15/52 -Master Moppie -P.Rittmaster -H&M Ford 2x550 - 1967-68 - drives shaft

-80 -Ronda Lee II -J.Bakos/O.Lewis-Mercruiser 3x225 - 1967-68 -stern driv. SM#2

-90 -Sternwinder -W.Sirois -Mercruiser 2x450 -1967-68 -stern drives SM#2

-43 -Zippè -M.Fortney -H&M Ford 2x500 -1967-? -drives shaft?

-18 - Patty Lou -R.Rautbord - ? -1967-? -drives shaft

-90 -Mona Lou -O.Lewis? -Mercruiser 2x450? -1967-? -stern drives SM#2 -ex Sternwinder?

-70 -Mona Lou -O.Lewis -Mercruiser 2x450 -1968 -stern drives SM#3 - red version

-90/4 -Yellow Tornado -V.Balestrieri/D.Pruett -Mercruiser 2x450 -1968 -stern drives ex Sternwinder

-23 -Boss O'Nova -W.Wishnick -Mercruiser 2x475 -1969-70-71 -stern drives ex Mona Lou red

-53 -American Moppie-P.Rittmaster-Mercruiser 2x475 -1969 -stern drives

-70 -Mona Lou -M.Riggs -Mercruiser 2x475 -1969 -stern drives

-4/89 -Red Tornado -V.Balestrieri/F.Cosentino-Mercruiser 2x475-1969-70 -stern drives SM#3

-89 -White Tornado -F.Cosentino -Mercruiser 2x475 -1969 -stern drives SM#3

-18 -Fino -R.Rautbord -Mercruiser 2x475 -1969?-70-71? -stern drives ex 1969 Mona Lou?

-69 -Mister Charly -R.Bonelli -Mercruiser 2x475 -1970 -stern drives ex American Moppie

-303 -Quicksilver -J.Stenback/D.Silvera -Mercury 4x140 -1969-70-71 -outboards

-8 -Maelstrom -E.Lecarreaux -Mercruiser 2x475 -1970 -stern drives

-123 -American Moppie-T.Powell -Mercruiser 2x500 -1971 -drives shaft? ex Master Moppie

-123 -Canadian Moppie-T.Powell -Mercruiser 2x500 -1972 -drives s.? ex 1971 American Moppie

-5 -WD40 -O.Trost -Mercruiser 2x450 -1972 -stern drives ex Boss O'Nova

-65 -Moppie -F.Barker -Mercruiser 2x500 -1973 -drives shaft? ex Canadian Moppie

-S-3 -Mongoose -B.Cook -Mercruiser 2x500 -1974-75 -stern drives? ex Zippè?

-009 -McQeen Jeans -R.Kelly -Ford Sabre 2x300 -1978-79 -ex Moppie

-555 -Rio - J.Arango - Mercruiser 2x ? - 1981 - stern drives-ex?


-12 are the hulls built surely(My Moppie-Master Moppie-Ronda Lee II-Sternwinder-Zippè-Patty Lou-red Mona Lou-American Moppie-1969 yellow Mona Lou-Red or White Tornado-Quicksilver-Maelstrom)

-6 boats of uncertain origins(1967 yellow Mona Lou-Red or White Tornado-Fino-Mongoose-Rio)

-21 race victories(7 Boss O'Nova-4 Red Tornado-2 Sternwinder+1 Yellow Tornado-1 Zippè-1 Mona Lou red-1 American Moppie 1969-1 White Tornado-1 Quicksilver-1 Mongoose-1 Rio)

-5 hulls still exist(3 in USA-My Moppie?-Mongoose-? 1 probably in GB McQueen Jeans-1 in Italy ex Mister Charlie)

thedonz
01-20-2010, 08:09 PM
About the Mona Lou for Riggs in the Bahamas 500 of 1969, few days ago I have received from US a series of pages of contemporary Motor Boating magazine purchased on eBay. In the specific one in the pages about the Bahamas 500 is written that that Mona Lou was a new boat.

That looks like Don in the Magnum ?

Brownie
01-21-2010, 09:33 AM
Up from the bottom: That is Don in the Magnum. See the hastily taped Magnum name on the Cigarette/Cary. I do not remember the inboard Patty Lou Bertram. Russ Specht was the Chief Engineer of Bertram from day one. Bertram was the only 'real' company in the boat business in Miami. Their engineer force, Russ, Lee Dana, Earl Harbert, Henry Vietia and a couple of others were second to none with their educations and ability. The rest of us had to fake it. The only thing that ever held Bertram back was the fact that it was a corporation, and did business like one. When I was with Holman Moody, we installed Ford gas turbines in many of the south Florida boat companies, and I must say that Bertram was was, by far, the best engineers of the bunch. I went there to teach them, and in many ways, they taught me........

TrippM
01-21-2010, 03:47 PM
Trying to use a cardiac defibrillator to save this thread here the images that my friend Fabrizio has sent me of the 31' Bertram "Rio" .
With this boat the Panamianian Josè Arango won the President's Cup race in the 1981.
At the first sight I was certain to find me in front of the 1967 Fortney ex Zippè but then looking at her transom my certainties have staggered.
Zippè was a Bertram-32' - that I would define of 'first generation', while the "Rio" has the modified transom.
Then new boat also this? Or is it the ex Mona Lou of 1969?

Before it was "Rio" it was the "Orion". Not sure what it was called before that.

Black Tornado
01-21-2010, 05:44 PM
Up from the bottom: That is Don in the Magnum. See the hastily taped Magnum name on the Cigarette/Cary. I do not remember the inboard Patty Lou Bertram. Russ Specht was the Chief Engineer of Bertram from day one. Bertram was the only 'real' company in the boat business in Miami. Their engineer force, Russ, Lee Dana, Earl Harbert, Henry Vietia and a couple of others were second to none with their educations and ability. The rest of us had to fake it. The only thing that ever held Bertram back was the fact that it was a corporation, and did business like one. When I was with Holman Moody, we installed Ford gas turbines in many of the south Florida boat companies, and I must say that Bertram was was, by far, the best engineers of the bunch. I went there to teach them, and in many ways, they taught me........

Then the real father of the 31' of 1967 and then of the 38' of 1974 (and of the prototypes of 36' of the 1973) it was Russ Specht as Chief Engineer.
While officially for the Bertram for competitions driven by Griffith and Bertram from the first 30' "Moppie" of 1960 to the 36' "Brave Moppie" of 1966 it results to be Ray Hunt but was it always Specht instead?

Black Tornado
01-21-2010, 05:45 PM
Before it was "Rio" it was the "Orion". Not sure what it was called before that.

Do you know the year for the "Orion"? Driver?

Brownie
01-21-2010, 06:38 PM
Hunt did the early ones.

TrippM
01-22-2010, 09:05 AM
Do you know the year for the "Orion"? Driver?

I do not have the driver/owner information for Orion but I'm sure someone here will be able to fill us in.

Black Tornado
01-22-2010, 06:30 PM
reproposing the list part two

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

race # - boat name - driver - engines -race year - notes

-8/77 - My Moppie - R. Bertram -Mercruiser 2x450 -1967-68-69 - drives shaft

-15/52 -Master Moppie -P.Rittmaster -H&M Ford 2x550 - 1967-68 - drives shaft

-80 -Ronda Lee II -J.Bakos/O.Lewis-Mercruiser 3x225 - 1967-68 -stern driv. SM#2

-90 -Sternwinder -W.Sirois -Mercruiser 2x450 -1967-68 -stern drives SM#2

-43 -Zippè -M.Fortney -H&M Ford 2x500 -1967-? -drives shaft?

-18 - Patty Lou -R.Rautbord - ? -1967-? -drives shaft

-90 -Mona Lou -O.Lewis? -Mercruiser 2x450? -1967-? -stern drives SM#2 -ex Sternwinder?

-70 -Mona Lou -O.Lewis -Mercruiser 2x450 -1968 -stern drives SM#3 - red version

-90/4 -Yellow Tornado -V.Balestrieri/D.Pruett -Mercruiser 2x450 -1968 -stern drives ex Sternwinder

-23 -Boss O'Nova -W.Wishnick -Mercruiser 2x475 -1969-70-71 -stern drives ex Mona Lou red

-53 -American Moppie-P.Rittmaster-Mercruiser 2x475 -1969 -stern drives

-70 -Mona Lou -M.Riggs -Mercruiser 2x475 -1969 -stern drives

-4/89 -Red Tornado -V.Balestrieri/F.Cosentino-Mercruiser 2x475-1969-70 -stern drives SM#3

-89 -White Tornado -F.Cosentino -Mercruiser 2x475 -1969 -stern drives SM#3

-18 -Fino -R.Rautbord -Mercruiser 2x475 -1969?-70-71? -stern drives ex 1969 Mona Lou?

-69 -Mister Charly -R.Bonelli -Mercruiser 2x475 -1970 -stern drives ex American Moppie

-303 -Quicksilver -J.Stenback/D.Silvera -Mercury 4x140 -1969-70-71 -outboards

-8 -Maelstrom -E.Lecarreaux -Mercruiser 2x475 -1970 -stern drives

-123 -American Moppie-T.Powell -Mercruiser 2x500 -1971 -drives shaft? ex Master Moppie

-123 -Canadian Moppie-T.Powell -Mercruiser 2x500 -1972 -drives s.? ex 1971 American Moppie

-5 -WD40 -O.Trost -Mercruiser 2x450 -1972 -stern drives ex Boss O'Nova

-65 -Moppie -F.Barker -Mercruiser 2x500 -1973 -drives shaft? ex Canadian Moppie

-S-3 -Mongoose -B.Cook -Mercruiser 2x500 -1974-75 -stern drives? ex Zippè?

-009 -McQeen Jeans -R.Kelly -Ford Sabre 2x300 -1978-79 -ex Moppie

- ? -Orion - ? - ? ? ? - ? -

-555 -Rio - J.Arango - Mercruiser 2x ? - 1981 - stern drives-ex Orion?


-12 are the hulls built surely(My Moppie-Master Moppie-Ronda Lee II-Sternwinder-Zippè-Patty Lou-red Mona Lou-American Moppie-1969 yellow Mona Lou-Red or White Tornado-Quicksilver-Maelstrom)

-6 boats of uncertain origins(1967 yellow Mona Lou-Red or White Tornado-Fino-Mongoose-Rio)

-21 race victories(7 Boss O'Nova-4 Red Tornado-2 Sternwinder+1 Yellow Tornado-1 Zippè-1 Mona Lou red-1 American Moppie 1969-1 White Tornado-1 Quicksilver-1 Mongoose-1 Rio)

-5 hulls still exist(3 in USA-My Moppie?-Mongoose-? 1 probably in GB McQueen Jeans-1 in Italy ex Mister Charlie)

list updated with red

FLYING FISH
01-24-2010, 11:14 AM
Finally got round to analysing your list Marco.Been busy preparing another load of old films for the Boatmad Multimedia section, plus compiling short clips of the CTC races for a DVD that will accompany the annniverary book of the event in August 2010.

Right,here we go.

Thought Master Moppie raced in 1969 according to Crousey,but pics show it was American Moppie after all.

Ronda Lee II I have recorded as 3 x 310hp Mercruisers.Those 225hp seem a bit small anyway.

Sternwinder recorded as 475hp Mercruisers.

Patty Lou also raced in 1968 Hennesey Long Island July 17th & Hennesey Key West Nov 1st.Reports say 2 x 450hp H & M (Long Island) and 2 x 600hp H & M (Key West).Screwed up as usual!!!!

Yellow Tornado recorded as 475hp Mercruisers.

1973 Makarska - Pescara July 1st, Crousey states Monadori raced 36ft Cigarette `Mr.Charly`.What`s that all about?

Didn`t know `Quicksilver raced in 1969.What race?

American Moppie/Canadian Moppie was drive shaft.See Boatmad pics on land.

Moppie (F.Barker) recorded as 550hp Mercruisers.There is a shot of it racing in the 1973 CTC film on Boatmad with a black centreline piece of sterngear showing.See what you think.

I know the horsepowers recorded can be suspect,but we are in the hands of the journos like it or not.

What I am waiting for is a pronouncement on that flamin `Fino` boat.Was it new or second hand.History please anyone who knows.

As an aside I have also found that Dick Bertram used a borrowed boat (Zippie)for the 1966 Long Beach - San Francisco - Long Beach race,so maybe it was the 25ft Zippie.

Black Tornado
01-25-2010, 02:38 PM
Waiting with the usual interest to yours new videos on Boatmad always greeted as only news in these stagnant waters of the offshore on the web, I answer point by point to your questions.

About the American Moppie I confirm.
In the 1969 Rittmaster raced with the new 31' "American Moppie"(next Mister Charly for Bonelli in 1970) of which also Crouse speaks in the chronicles of that year.
However I have the suspicion that the old "Master Moppie" was also renamed "American Moppie" before being sold to Powell.

Indeed also to me the power seemed too low to justify the choice of three engines for the Ronda Lee II but these were the only infos of which I had.

According to Searace for the whole season 1967 the Mercruisers had 450hp to the last race the Hurricane Classic those of the Sternwinder they seem to have 475hp. Considering that I keep on sustaining (with evidence) that that boat had already raced since July 19 it is possible that it had the motors from 450hp as all the others boats with the Merc.

I find arduous that the Holman & Moody succeed in increasing of well 150hp in so little time considering that the most accredited power for the H&Ms was of 450hp in the 1967.
Here he could tell us something Brownie....

Ok for the 475hp for Yellow Tornado considering that the Sternwinder also had that power.

I believe that the Italian informer of Crouse didn't know well the boats that raced in offshore in Italy in the 1973(as usual).
In all these years I have never felt to speak about a Cigarette 36' "Mister Charly."
I believe that Mondadori run the race back from Makarska with the old Bertram 31' of the his stepson Ronny Bonelli. I don't know the motives for which has opted for that boat instead of the classical his Cig. 36' Nicopao that drove in the first race from Pescara to Makarska.
However a photo exists that withdraws Mondadori with the helmet(but in beach clothes) at the helm of the Bertram.
I had forgotten to add the name of Mondadori to the my list.

About the Quicksilver 31' Bertram for Stenback I have an article on the Bahamas 500 of Motor Boating August 1969.
Stenback was forced to the retired because of problems to one of his four engines.
Sammy James had told Seeroy that before Silvera that boat had been of Stenback.

Cleary visible the shafts came out of the hull of American Moppie.(If only I was remembered to go to see that photo before)
Less clear but intuitable for the Canadian Moppie in run (any photo found of it in "no-race" library)

Speaking of the mysterious object in the low middle stern in the 1973 Moppie I believe both the same that can be seen in the stern of the Jeans Mcqueen.
I will take the frame from the video of the CTC 73 and I will invite the experts to give one explanation here.

The horsepowers are as the dimensions of the boats;everyone shoots his numbers.Must we resign us?

I think that you referred to the Fin of the 1970 of your library-Magazines Pics on Boatmad. A color photo would be enough for identifying it or no as ex Mona Lou of the Bahamas 500 of 1969 with Riggs.

After the sinking of the Brave Moppie it is possible that Bertram could be...without a boat and so for a race he jumped on the first Zippè of Fortney.

NNRT
01-25-2010, 05:05 PM
Think the Orion was "8" Ball - Eddie Lecarauxs boat - just repainted from Yellow to Red -

Phil

TrippM
01-25-2010, 05:35 PM
Think the Orion was "8" Ball - Eddie Lecarauxs boat - just repainted from Yellow to Red -

Phil

Is that a different boat from the "Maelstrom" or the same hull?

Black Tornado
01-25-2010, 05:45 PM
Think the Orion was "8" Ball - Eddie Lecarauxs boat - just repainted from Yellow to Red -

Phil

Thanks Phil it is a reasonable possibility.
So few we know of Ed Lecarreaux and of his 31' Bertram 'Maelstrom' with the same #8 that had also had the 'My Moppie' of Dick Bertram.
In 1970 they(boat and owner) made know for a pair of shiver accidents and then nothing more.

FLYING FISH
01-26-2010, 07:53 AM
Just to confirm the drive arrangement Marco.Also note ,it confirms the designer was Bertram`s love child !!!!!!!!!!
Don`t you just love the journo`s nonsense.

FLYING FISH
01-26-2010, 07:58 AM
Not Bertram I know ,but some VBV stuff for your files Marco.The year 1965.

NNRT
01-26-2010, 01:36 PM
I saw Eddie Lecaraux's boat in Freeport, Bahamas it was on a trailer there for the 1970 Bahama 500 - am not sure if it ran or not - however - years later it was at the Kings Grant Inn - still the yellow Gel coat #8 - sat there for the longest time -and I remember hearing that Eddie went into the priesthood - to avoid some problems -

Phil

seeroy
01-26-2010, 04:06 PM
Marco - I don't know if these will help you or not. I received these two pages from Sammy James yesterday. They are from Bertram history listing success of their boats in various races. He told me that at one time he noticed one of the Bertram "Big Wigs" throwing a bunch of old history "junk" documents in the dumpster. Sammy went dumpster diving and saved some of it. Can you imagine how much Offshore history has been lost by people just cleaning out old "junk"? And that is not to mention how much history "junk" people currently have stashed away in drawers that will be lost if they do not bring it out to be digitized. - Steve Sirois

http://i45.tinypic.com/fbfrp.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/65ww03.jpg

Black Tornado
01-26-2010, 06:13 PM
Thanks Steve.
Unfortunately in the two sheets there are no new things for me.
I always think to how many documents have gone lost forever.
And how many 'survivors' will still be destined at the same end.
If you think that here in Italy several historical monuments(of Roman Empire and others ages) have done and they will make the same end.....
It makes badly even more me know that at the same end a lot of the boats are been destined of which we often speak in these forums.
Today the new owners of the historical yards devote nothing or very little space to host the documents that testify the facts for which today them he is enriching.
We can take comfort with works as Searace and others however that men as John Crouse has given us.
For don't forget our Sport.

BTW the victory list must be corrected in the Viareggio-Bastia of 1968; the winner Balestrieri drove the 28' Magnum "Tornado" not a Bertram.

Black Tornado
01-26-2010, 06:58 PM
Just to confirm the drive arrangement Marco.Also note ,it confirms the designer was Bertram`s love child !!!!!!!!!!
Don`t you just love the journo`s nonsense.

I think that we can also file the drive arrangements as drive shafts for Canadian Moppie despite the nonsense on the designer.
About the Moppie in the CTC 73 have not succeeded in extracting a better frame of this post below but an U.F.O.(or better U.S.O. as Unidentified Surface Objects) is seeing in the low center of the stern.
Perhaps the survivors of the team S.H.A.D.O. of the Commander Straker in England they could help us in the identification but should we open a question-thread on Boatmad?
Also in the photo of the collective-taxi Jeans McQueen seems to be us an U.F.O. alike to a stern drives....

Thanks Graham for the three files about the VBV of 1965.
This is the first know report about a VBV edition coming from the rest of the World.

FLYING FISH
01-27-2010, 10:34 AM
Thanks `Seeroy` for posting that.Chucking these things in the skip is sad to say the least.
I can remember being told that when Tony Needell died (the chief scrutineer for the early Cowes - Torquay races and the man who wrote the rule book for offshore in the 60`s),his son Tiff (who commentates for the P1 races in Europe),just threw all his archive material in the bin.These people want stringing up,they have no idea what they are doing.
Looking at the list I take it they were Bertram victories ,although some like the 1969 Catalina Challenge was won by Thunderballs II (Rothchild in a Cary),so may Zippie just took part.When it comes to the European races,well,it just goes a bit ape in it`s recording of truth as Marco has said after scraping himself off the ceiling.

Black Tornado
01-27-2010, 07:34 PM
Does it seem that that old (?) list had been compiled at mind.
Also the victories in Sweden are nonexistent.
But other Bertrams victories are absent in that list.

Black Tornado
01-27-2010, 07:45 PM
I have received the answer of John Bakos speaking of the true history of his Ronda Lee II;

".... After jogging my memory (it has been close to 45 years), I do recall that Mr. Kiekhaefer had ordered four 31’ Bertrams. Two of the boats were regular racing boats. The other two were very light weight boats called Bertram Nautic Specials. I rigged mine with 3 Corvette engines with 310 horsepower each and #2 speedmasters on each engine. I am not sure who set up the other light weight boat. However, I believe that it was Odell who rigged it with big blocks on standard #2 drives.
The reason for the two lightweight boats was to win the Bahama 500. A broken exhaust on one engine eliminated me. Supposedly the Bertram Nautic Specials were only supposed to last one race as they were light. However it lasted for approximately 4 more races without any structural failure. This is pretty much all that that I remember of the Ronda Lee II which was named after my daughter.
In answer to your questions, I believed Richie Powers is incorrect. Bill Sirois never ran the Ronda Lee II. Odell did race the boat after I left the race team.
When I left to go with the OEM Service in Fond du Lac, there were two more races before the end of the season. Mr. Kiekhaefer requested that I race again which I hesitantly did as I did not want to jeopardize my new position.
I decided not to run in the last race of the season which was the Miami – Nassau and that is when Odell ran the Ronda Lee II. I presently am not aware of the outcome of that race.
I have talked with Mel Riggs and Jim Emerson who was our gas man at Lake X. They also do not recall what happened to the Ronda Lee II."

Many Thanks to John Bakos.

Top Banana
01-27-2010, 09:51 PM
You guys have done a great job with this. Excellent work!!!!!

What boat brand and size is next??

NNRT
01-28-2010, 06:11 AM
Bertram Nautic Special - as per John Bakos - above -

My 28 ft. Bertram Baron had that "Bertram Nautic Speical" painted on its sides when I bought it - the boat was used in Bertrams orriginal brochure for the Baron as well - If anyone knows - was this boat laid up lighter than others - ? I dont know !

Here are two photos - where you can see the Bertram Nautic Special Painted on the sides of the boat near the stern.

Phil

FLYING FISH
01-28-2010, 06:12 AM
From the archives 1972.

FLYING FISH
01-28-2010, 06:14 AM
Part 2

FLYING FISH
01-28-2010, 09:46 AM
I reckon there is a good chance `Fino` was `Mona Lou IV`.

Mona Lou IV raced in Gateway 69 May 10th and Bah 500 69 Jun 14th,then dissappears and Fino pops up on July 12th in Sam Griffith 69 and on to Miami - Key West 69 on Nov 7th.Fino also raced in 71.Hennesey GP Pt.Pleasant(M.Adler),Miami - Key West (Rautbord) and a Fino (D.Pruett) in Bah 500 but don`t know if it was a Bertram.

Master Moppie (with the forward topside light fitting) became Powell`s American Moppie.
American Moppie No 53 (No topside light fitting) became Mr.Charly.
So can`t see any possibilty of Master Moppie becoming the No 53 American Moppie.

Have `e` mailed a likely source that would know all about McQueens Jeans.We hold ourselves in readiness.

Black Tornado
01-28-2010, 05:05 PM
I reckon there is a good chance `Fino` was `Mona Lou IV`.

Mona Lou IV raced in Gateway 69 May 10th and Bah 500 69 Jun 14th,then dissappears and Fino pops up on July 12th in Sam Griffith 69 and on to Miami - Key West 69 on Nov 7th.Fino also raced in 71.Hennesey GP Pt.Pleasant(M.Adler),Miami - Key West (Rautbord) and a Fino (D.Pruett) in Bah 500 but don`t know if it was a Bertram.

Master Moppie (with the forward topside light fitting) became Powell`s American Moppie.
American Moppie No 53 (No topside light fitting) became Mr.Charly.
So can`t see any possibilty of Master Moppie becoming the No 53 American Moppie.

Have `e` mailed a likely source that would know all about McQueens Jeans.We hold ourselves in readiness.

Graham, I have required to Bakos that forwards to Mel Riggs the question on the origins and destinies of the Mona Lou (IV) of the 1969.
We see if we were on the correct road.

I don't sustain that the Master Moppie can have become the American Moppie of the 1969. They are two different boats,a 32' and a new brand 31'.
Do I sustain that considering that when Powell bought the Master Moppie from Rittmaster in the 1971 this it already called American Moppie or him it re-named it in this way?
It is possible that Rittmaster in 1969 called both his Bertram American Moppie even if that of 1967 didn't use it more in competitions.

Brownie
01-29-2010, 09:50 AM
I was drinking that year, but Master Moppie was Peter Ritt "Master", then Prez of Bertram, and American Moppie was Dick Bertram's replacement for Brave Moppie. What do you think?

JO - PANTERABOAT
01-29-2010, 11:24 AM
Hello Brownie,
I have a question off topic BUT what are the qualifications required to be an "ICON" ?
Just curious, I have always wanted to be something so an Icon would be fine!
Later,
pepe @ pantera.

"If you are scared of dying then you are scared of living" (Rocky Aoki)

Brownie
01-29-2010, 11:56 AM
Pepe, You qualify.... I CON people.....

Dude! Sweet!
01-29-2010, 02:44 PM
Hello Brownie,
I have a question off topic BUT what are the qualifications required to be an "ICON" ?
Just curious, I have always wanted to be something so an Icon would be fine!
Later,
pepe @ pantera.

"If you are scared of dying then you are scared of living" (Rocky Aoki)

Oh you're "something" all right! :sifone:

FLYING FISH
01-29-2010, 03:58 PM
Just had reply from the son of the guy who owned McQueens Jeans.It had twin Mercruiser sterndrives.He has a feeling he had read Moppie had sterndrives also and is checking for any pics he may have.

Black Tornado
01-29-2010, 05:35 PM
Just had reply from the son of the guy who owned McQueens Jeans.It had twin Mercruiser sterndrives.He has a feeling he had read Moppie had sterndrives also and is checking for any pics he may have.

Graham,would it be interesting to know if he remembers that type of stern drives had on the Jeans McQueen, SM #2 or #3?

Anchored
01-30-2010, 10:09 PM
Trying to use a cardiac defibrillator to save this thread here the images that my friend Fabrizio has sent me of the 31' Bertram "Rio" .
With this boat the Panamianian Josè Arango won the President's Cup race in the 1981.
At the first sight I was certain to find me in front of the 1967 Fortney ex Zippè but then looking at her transom my certainties have staggered.
Zippè was a Bertram-32' - that I would define of 'first generation', while the "Rio" has the modified transom.
Then new boat also this? Or is it the ex Mona Lou of 1969?


Jeff

FLYING FISH
01-31-2010, 04:28 AM
I think that Benihana may be a bum steer.

seeroy
02-15-2010, 12:54 PM
Marco - I talked with John Bakos yesterday and he sent this photo of Rhonda Lee to me. This is the 3 engine boat that you have discussed. John did run the boat, but he told me that Odell also ran the boat at least once. I know this may add some confusion to the equation, but I am guessing that you have not previously seen this photo. Hopefully John will come on-line and add some information. Best Regards - Steve Sirois

http://i45.tinypic.com/aw6u7l.jpg

Black Tornado
02-15-2010, 06:02 PM
Thanks Seeroy, expecting some news for some time.
John Bakos had responded to my e-mail telling me that Odell had driven his Ronda Lee II after he had left the team Kiekhaefer before the Miami-Nassau in October 1967. And that Odell ran the last race of the season, the Miami-Nassau. Odell probably ran a race with Ronda Lee II, but probably was not the Miami-Nassau that was not the last race of the season.
The data I have give Odell at the wheel of Mona Lou III (Searace and others) for that race.
It 'possible that this was the Hurricane Classic that it was really the last race of 1967.
Another point to clarify in the murky waters of Lake Bertram ....
Hoping that meetings at the Miami Boat Show, do discuss of that.


BTW very good pic of the Ronda Lee II. The location seem to be in the Bahamas (Lucaya?).Bahamas 500 or Miami-Nassau?

Black Tornado
02-15-2010, 06:18 PM
I was drinking that year, but Master Moppie was Peter Ritt "Master", then Prez of Bertram, and American Moppie was Dick Bertram's replacement for Brave Moppie. What do you think?

Brownie,Sorry for the delay in response but these days I was drinking ... :cheers2:
You are partially correct; "Master Moppie" was Peter Rittmaster but it was also the "American Moppie".
Dick Bertram after he had the "Brave Moppie" in 1966 have had "My Moppie" who was also his last boat to compete.

jdoss
03-22-2010, 06:34 PM
on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270547708055&viewitem=&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DI%26otn%3D2&category=26434

Black Tornado
03-22-2010, 07:04 PM
on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270547708055&viewitem=&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DI%26otn%3D2&category=26434

Is the 31' that I talk with Seeroy some post behind.
I hope that someone buys the boat and the restore it in race trim.
Thanks for the link Jdoss.

h2oMag
03-23-2010, 11:24 AM
One more of the S-911 BENIHANA.

Black Tornado
03-23-2010, 07:27 PM
One more of the S-911 BENIHANA.

This is not a Bertram but a Barcone!:banghead:

h2oMag
03-24-2010, 12:00 AM
This is not a Bertram but a Barcone!:banghead:

I was close, it started with a B. :bump:

Len S
03-24-2010, 12:47 AM
Oh! Steve I have forgotten to say you to greet Sammy that I had known here in Viareggio with Tom Gentry, Dick Banks and John Crouse during the 1984 Worlds.
And then there was to ask if he knew if the firsts 31'(or 32?') Bertram transoms with the drives shafts could be modified for lodging the new Speedmasters #3.

In post 158 what kind of large cat is that and what was it called

Interested in info and is it still around

Thank you guys

bertsboat
10-30-2012, 09:47 PM
Looking for Fino information or pictures for the web site Fino 30 sport boat (http://www.finomarine.com)
Any help would be greatly appreciated

Also, bringing this thread back to life!!!

Ratickle
10-30-2012, 10:04 PM
So there were less than 30 built, and you've already found 15 of them?

bertsboat
05-24-2013, 09:31 AM
76011
Still looking for Fino info and pictures.
Always adding info at Fino 30 sport boat (http://www.fino30.com)
Thanks in advance!

old377guy
05-24-2013, 11:52 PM
Great thread, love those classics

Nick27
03-18-2014, 08:34 AM
Question...
I am presently restoring a 31 Bertram ex race boat in Miami. The original color was a white gelcoat. We are thinking it may be the White Tornado of Consentino but are having difficulty tracing its history.
Do you. Y chance know what came of White Tornado?

Ratickle
03-19-2014, 08:27 AM
There are no HIN numbers I'm assuming? I sent a couple emails out to see if it can be figured out.

Take as many pictures as possible that you can of special rigging holes, bilge, interior, etc. On jetcruzr's 41 Apache we were able to find a picture with Eicke Batista in the bilge that positively identified the boat with the rigging holes and special pieces because of the Lambo's it was originally rigged with. As we locate pictures of the 31 race boats we will want to compare them with pictures of your boat.

Congrats by the way. Sweet project to take on!!

Nick27
03-20-2014, 09:18 AM
I'll post some pics with explanations...thanks

Ratickle
03-21-2014, 08:39 AM
Good, after Tavares we should be able to get some input.

Maybe you should go over there and chat with some of the oldtimers..... Bring pics if you do.

Nick27
03-21-2014, 09:11 AM
When/where/ what is Tavares?
Going to try to post some pics today...
Thanks

Nick27
03-21-2014, 10:17 AM
78186

Nick27
03-21-2014, 10:20 AM
78187

Nick27
03-21-2014, 10:24 AM
7818878189

Nick27
03-21-2014, 10:31 AM
781907819178192

Nick27
03-21-2014, 10:36 AM
78193
781947819578196

Nick27
03-21-2014, 10:42 AM
78197

It looks like the boat was originally white gelcoat followed by black paint then primer and black paint again

Nick27
03-21-2014, 10:55 AM
Any help in identifying the boat will be greatly appreciated.
I am thinking it might be the Consentino 'White Tornado'.
The boat has been in Florida since at least 1987. Most likely the Miami area.
We see no evidence of shafts having ever been in the boat so assume it was always an I/O.
It looks as if there were two seperate exchaust setups ( different heights) through the transom.
With any luch we might run across some original graphics as we remove the paint.

Ratickle
03-21-2014, 05:46 PM
When/where/ what is Tavares?
Going to try to post some pics today...
Thanks

http://seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23488&p=616538#post616538

Nick27
03-21-2014, 06:16 PM
Great, thank you!

Nick27
03-21-2014, 06:28 PM
No HIN's.
In addition to the pics I just posted, I have loads of pictures of the deck, hardware etc. the biggest problem I'm having is finding a boat that was originally white gelcoat. Sam James says he only recalls one boat being white and that was White Tornado...although there have been references to a possible last boat that was built but never raced . Perhaps it made its way back to the states from Europe? I havn't found out what became of it after the 1970 season ( just started researching).

Nick27
03-22-2014, 05:38 PM
Mystery solved!
I spoke with Sam James again this morning. I was not aware that ONLY staggered I/O's were produced.
My boat has a side by side set up... we found no evidence of any prior staggered drives on the transom.
Somewhere along the line the boat was converted from a staggered arrangement to a side by side...the entire ( or large portion ) of the transom must have been replaced at that time.
This stringers in the engine space were also redone/repositioned , but again, must have been done long ago because no clear evidence of alteration could be found.

Graham Stevens sent me a newspaper clipping from 1971 showing White Tornado at "Don Aronows boatyard on 188th st". The boat was waiting "to be put into special shape" for the upcoming London- Monte Carlo race. The boat however was never exported back to Europe/UK.
Sam was very certain that no other 31/32 Bertram was ever built with a white gel coat hull and deck.
I just don't see any other possibility...my boat must be the White Tornado of Cosentino.

Nick27
03-25-2014, 01:44 PM
Does anyone have entrant roster/results from the 1970,71 Point Pleasant and Miami-Nassau races? I am trying to find out information about the White Tornado Bertram . I believe it was entered in both races. I think Miami-Nassau in 1970 and Point Pleasant in 1971 perhaps?
Thanks...

Ratickle
03-26-2014, 09:37 AM
Charlie, Top Banana, says to start digging through Searace to see about those years. He thought no one would know more than Sam though.

Do you have the book?

Nick27
03-26-2014, 10:31 AM
I do have the book, thanks. I havnt found all entrants for each race. If a boat DNF'd there is often no mention.
I did find that Balistrieri finished 4th in the 1970 Point Pleasant race , however i see no mention of White Tornado in the 1970 Miami-Nassau.Supposedly Consentino was scheduled to race but then dropped out before the start and was replaced by Atilio Petroni

Ratickle
03-26-2014, 06:34 PM
This is the 1970 race I believe.

http://www.powerboatarchive.co.uk/Magazines/1970s/1970%20%20HENNESEY%20NEW%20YORK%20etc.pdf

Nick27
03-27-2014, 09:24 AM
Yes, this is the Point Pleasant race in which Balistieri finished 4th.
Any info on the 1970 Miami-Nassau entrants. I know White Tornado Is not mentioned as a finisher, but an article from Graham's website mentioned a "pair" of boats entered by Balistrieri....

Ratickle
03-28-2014, 07:58 AM
Did you review the story we did on Vincenzo

http://seriousoffshore.com/forums/content.php?r=125-The-Count-of-Offshore-Part-1-of-2

http://seriousoffshore.com/forums/content.php?r=124-The-Count-of-Offshore-Part-2


There is also a link in there to the site his sons did on his history.

How many White Tornados were there? One Magnum and one Bertram?

Nick27
03-28-2014, 08:37 AM
Thanks, I'll have a look at the story.
I believe you are correct, one Bertram and one Magnum. I think the "Tornado Team" was disbanded in late 1970, but don't know for sure.

Nick27
03-28-2014, 08:40 AM
I wonder if his sons have detailed pictures of White Tornado? Alex has told me that the pictures on his site are the only ones he has. Do you have contact info for his other sons? Any info If Consentino has lchildren?

Ratickle
03-29-2014, 08:04 AM
Alex pays the most attention and does the most with the website for his father. I wonder if Marco knows anything? I'll send him an email....

aok1
08-18-2014, 10:04 PM
Sorry Marco.....Brownie is correct. You made me go to the secret files of HORBA photos to bring this one out.

We have to remember that we can compare photos of various boats, but Brownie was on the scene at the time.

Here is a photo of the Magnum-Donzi named Sterndriver and driven by Billy Sirois.

Magnum-Donzi "Sterndriver"#48 never driven by Bill Sirois,only John Bakos.I Ran it in the 500 and Long Island.First staggered engine set-up.
Aok1

Ratickle
08-19-2014, 09:39 PM
John, Welcome to the forum. It's not every day a offshore pioneer shows up to chat about the sport we all love so much.

Were there two Sterndriver boats? It seems like there was a Sterndriver and a Sterndriver II? (I'll do some digging).

AMERICAN MOPPIE
10-07-2014, 12:00 PM
I am crying for happiness i was searching the web and i found this forum. I am 100% that i found AMERICAN MOPPIE (AFTER Mr Charlie). And i am looking forwared on buying him plz help.
Now i own a totaly diffrent boat (chapparal 270 sig 2011) i cannot affored to keep them both.could a boat of this age be seaworthy? should i be anxious about its age? the boat is totaly rebuilt.

Ratickle
10-07-2014, 07:53 PM
Welcome to the forum.

We're going to need some additional information to answer your question though. There are a lot of older boats that are still seaworthy. What else do you know?

Ratickle
10-07-2014, 07:56 PM
You are talking this boat?

78926

AMERICAN MOPPIE
10-08-2014, 03:57 AM
Yes Ratickle i am talking about this boat.

i have photos and any info you need. the boat is totally restored.

at your dissposal , just tell me what i should sent you

thang you again.

Ratickle
10-08-2014, 02:38 PM
I think you should start a special thread in this section with the boat information, pictures, and ask any questions you would like answered. These old raceboats mean a lot to a large group of our members and they would be happy to help in any way they possibly can, including myself.

If you need any assistance, let us know.