Popeye-La Tortuga 44' - The giants of the seventies

[Black Tornado]

Here the little history in pictures of the 'largest offshore racer in the world of the seventies' as John Crouse in his Searace has defined the boats of 44' built by Miller and Saccenti in the middle of the seventies in USA.
I hope that Cal500 aka Sonny Miller tells us that brief adventure with Saccenti even also with his photos.

Below the first 44' Miller-Saccenti boat- Popeye of the Ohian Dominic Visconsi.
The first shot was taken during the 1973 Key West race in November 10 where Popeye finished 3rd overall.
Key West was the first race of which we have news of a boat 44' Saccenti-Miller.

In 1974 during the Benihana Grand Prix of July 17 the Popeye was destroyed by fire and lost.

[Black Tornado]

News of a 44' is not had anymore up to the Benihana Grand Prix of the following year where ironically thanks to the disqualifications of the first five finished the new Miller-Saccenti of the rookie John Varese named La Tortuga won the race.

[Black Tornado]

The winning crew of La Tortuga.
From left; Bob Saccenti-co-designer of the boat,Rocky Aoki - driver and here sponsor of the race,Sonny Miller - co-designer and the owner-driver John Varese.

La Tortuga in 1976 during the Bacardi Trophy where was 3rd overall.

And a MSV boat ad.

[Chris]

La Tortuga was the world's first Superboat. Had it been equipped with a 3rd engine to offset it's size and weight it would have been really something.

[Black Tornado]

La Tortuga was the world's first Superboat. Had it been equipped with a 3rd engine to offset it's size and weight it would have been really something.

This could be a question for Cal500.
Why was not select a solution with three engines but only that with two Flagship turbocharged on the preceding Popeye.

[CAL500]

This could be a question for Cal500.
Why was not select a solution with three engines but only that with two Flagship turbocharged on the preceding Popeye.

the APBA rules only allows two engines, I dreamed of three engines .the turbo engines from flagship were 800 hp each,more punch than the 600 hp merc,s. at The first sea trial in miami this new race boat run just under 100 mph.we were excited , but the engines were a new type turbo setup they had a lot of power when they were cool . we pushed them hard,we lead the race to the first check point . you know the rest .crew dominic /tony/myself sonny

[DAREDEVIL]

the APBA rules only allows two engines, I dreamed of three engines .the turbo engines from flagship were 800 hp each,more punch than the 600 hp merc,s. at The first sea trial in miami this new race boat run just under 100 mph.we were excited , but the engines were a new type turbo setup they had a lot of power when they were cool . we pushed them hard,we lead the race to the first check point . you know the rest .crew dominic /tony/myself sonny

COOL,,,and welcome !!!!!!

Any more pics from this boat ??

[CAL500]

Here the little history in pictures of the 'largest offshore racer in the world of the seventies' as John Crouse in his Searace has defined the boats of 44' built by Miller and Saccenti in the middle of the seventies in USA.
I hope that Cal500 aka Sonny Miller tells us that brief adventure with Saccenti even also with his photos.

Below the first 44' Miller-Saccenti boat- Popeye of the Ohian Dominic Visconsi.
The first shot was taken during the 1973 Key West race in November 10 where Popeye finished 3rd overall.
Key West was the first race of which we have news of a boat 44' Saccenti-Miller.

In 1974 during the Benihana Grand Prix of July 17 the Popeye was destroyed by fire and lost.

the 44 ft popeye lite brown in colour ,that was raced in key west and we came in third.that was the first hull from the mold and had higher freeboard,and the old engine /drives from the old cig popeye36.look at the black stripe under the rub rail.the high freeboard gave us 6.5 ft head room down below for production boats. slow 83 mph but could handle most any seas.the 44ft yellow popeye was a new hull cut down 8 " with the flagship engines ,raced and burned. fast almost 100 mph. I will post the complete MS and than MSV history from my hull concept / drawings/plug/mold/sweat / and risk bob and I put into this project . I will post the cobra 38/r MSV history

[DAREDEVIL]

the 44 ft popeye lite brown in colour ,that was raced in key west and we came in third.that was the first hull from the mold and had higher freeboard,and the old engine /drives from the old cig popeye36.look at the black stripe under the rub rail.the high freeboard gave us 6.5 ft head room down below for production boats. slow 83 mph but could handle most any seas.the 44ft yellow popeye was a new hull cut down 8 " with the flagship engines ,raced and burned. fast almost 100 mph. I will post the complete MS and than MSV history from my hull concept / drawings/plug/mold/sweat / and risk bob and I put into this project . I will post the cobra 38/r MSV history

COOL !!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers2:

[CAL500]

News of a 44' is not had anymore up to the Benihana Grand Prix of the following year where ironically thanks to the disqualifications of the first five finished the new Miller-Saccenti of the rookie John Varese named La Tortuga won the race.
MSV la tortuga
listen you guys this boat was not that bad, it ran strong in the low 80's and thru almost any sea's . that day we had a bad engine but we know how to navigate. the other boats missed a buoy by I think a few miles .there are some other races bob and I should have won, ship rock catalina calif.said they could not see us.we win/then magoon wins. popeye 36 cig. not our day ciao sm

[Black Tornado]

the 44 ft popeye lite brown in colour ,that was raced in key west and we came in third.that was the first hull from the mold and had higher freeboard,and the old engine /drives from the old cig popeye36.look at the black stripe under the rub rail.the high freeboard gave us 6.5 ft head room down below for production boats. slow 83 mph but could handle most any seas.the 44ft yellow popeye was a new hull cut down 8 " with the flagship engines ,raced and burned. fast almost 100 mph. I will post the complete MS and than MSV history from my hull concept / drawings/plug/mold/sweat / and risk bob and I put into this project . I will post the cobra 38/r MSV history

Then the 44' built for the competitions they were 3-two Popeyes and one La Tortuga?
What end did it make the first Popeye 44'?

[MarylandMark]

Thanks! I was wondering how 5 boats were disqualified!

Welcome to SOS and can't wait to hear more!!

[CAL500]

Then the 44' built for the competitions they were 3-two Popeyes and one La Tortuga?
What end did it make the first Popeye 44'?
original 36 cig coral colour popeye raced and later sold in kingston. 86mph brown popeye msv44 ran keywest / ft lau,w palm/ then (sold as pleasure boat)82mph

yellow popeye msv 44 ran in pointpleasent ( fuego tutto) 100mph
dark yellow la tortuga msv44 ran in pointpleasent (win) 83mph

white la tortuga msv 38 sea trialed aeromarine turbo 104mph strong never raced jon varese died I sold everything for his family.....mazzo tempo ciao sonny

[olli]

white la tortuga msv 38 sea trialed aeromarine turbo 104mph strong ...

This one (pic copied from a thread on OSO, sorry no link)?

47737

[Black Tornado]

white la tortuga msv 38 sea trialed aeromarine turbo 104mph strong never raced jon varese died I sold everything for his family.....mazzo tempo ciao sonny

This should be 38' MSV for Varese.
Do you remeber the year?

[Black Tornado]

Thanks! I was wondering how 5 boats were disqualified!

Welcome to SOS and can't wait to hear more!!

That day the first five finish order was 1st Hal Sahlman (Spirit-Cig.35') -2nd Carlo Bonomi (Dry Martini-Cig.35') -3rd Sandy Satullo (Copper Kettle-Gara 40') -4th Oskar Trost (Miss WD-40-Bertram 38') -5th Jack Tushinsky (Jumpin Jack-Cig.36') but all these didn't see the most southern checkpoint of the course at Barnegat and therefore they were disqualified.

[CAL500]

This should be 38' MSV for Varese.
Do you remeber the year?

1976 this is the race boat with aero marine engines.sonny

[CAL500]

That day the first five finish order was 1st Hal Sahlman (Spirit-Cig.35') -2nd Carlo Bonomi (Dry Martini-Cig.35') -3rd Sandy Satullo (Copper Kettle-Gara 40') -4th Oskar Trost (Miss WD-40-Bertram 38') -5th Jack Tushinsky (Jumpin Jack-Cig.36') but all these didn't see the most southern checkpoint of the course at Barnegat and therefore they were disqualified.

I recall 10 miles 5 down to the check point and 5 back to where these five boats made there turn to early, we went all the way down to the end and turned back north , which was correct. sonny msv 44 la tortuga

[CAL500]

This one (pic copied from a thread on OSO, sorry no link)?

47737

this photo is of the 38 msv hull with my celebrity deck ,which I designed and built after we stoped building the old deck style .I built 23 of these with twin 440 hp merc with trs drives. 68 mph , in the miami vice movie named red rider 1977- 1982 non racing projects. sonny ciao

[Black Tornado]

this photo is of the 38 msv hull with my celebrity deck ,which I designed and built after we stoped building the old deck style .I built 23 of these with twin 440 hp merc with trs drives. 68 mph , in the miami vice movie named red rider 1977- 1982 non racing projects. sonny ciao

I prefer the deck versions for the racing boats -44' or 38'....

[T2x]

I don't want to throw a wet blanket over anything in this thread....and I find it fascinating.....

But......

100 mph in the early to mid 70's in an Offshore boat of that size would have been about 20 mph over the real speeds of the time. I think if you check the prop pitches, RPM's and gear ratios you might find that they won't add up to 100 mph... You will also find that the x dimensions were considerably lower than today's, resulting in a lot more drag.

To my knowledge no boats saw 100 mph at Lake X until 1980 or so...and they were cats. I know that Steve Stepp managed to get a small 32' Velocity vee over 100 at about the same time but that was a one shot deal, with almost empty tanks, and a light weight set up.

In 1981, my 94 mph Sport Class Shadow Cat could out run any open class vee bottom with plenty to spare...in calm water. (We held our own in the rough as well, but that's not my point)

If Brownie, Bobby Saccenti, Richie Powers, et al have opposing points of view I will, obviously, listen with respect to their counterpoint, but barring that, I think that 100 mph in a monohull in that era is a bit of a stretch.

T2x

[FastDonzi]

in 82 (IIRC) Smitty and Ted Toleman set the open class speed record (in a cat) at about 94 mph. Had Fayva's little cat not polluted the country side it would have held the record at about 120 mph. Then everyone realized that the surface drive on a cat really worked, So they took the "Big" Fayva cat to lake X and made what is the very first standoff box for a mercruiser drive, although it took up the whole transom-It Worked, on that day it became the fastest class 1 boat to ever run on the lake. From there Danny Wiensteins Powerplay "S Class" cat was the 2nd (to have standoff boxes). from there the drive hights and speeds elevated to what you have today.

[CAL500]

I don't want to throw a wet blanket over anything in this thread....and I find it fascinating.....

But......

100 mph in the early to mid 70's in an Offshore boat of that size would have been about 20 mph over the real speeds of the time. I think if you check the prop pitches, RPM's and gear ratios you might find that they won't add up to 100 mph... You will also find that the x dimensions were considerably lower than today's, resulting in a lot more drag.

To my knowledge no boats saw 100 mph at Lake X until 1980 or so...and they were cats. I know that Steve Stepp managed to get a small 32' Velocity vee over 100 at about the same time but that was a one shot deal, with almost empty tanks, and a light weight set up.

In 1981, my 94 mph Sport Class Shadow Cat could out run any open class vee bottom with plenty to spare...in calm water. (We held our own in the rough as well, but that's not my point)

If Brownie, Bobby Saccenti, Richie Powers, et al have opposing points of view I will, obviously, listen with respect to their counterpoint, but barring that, I think that 100 mph in a monohull in that era is a bit of a stretch.

T2x

heres my responce 1-1 / ssm3 / 4 blade props / 800 hp / 55oo rpm /turbo 496 cuin . I built freon intercoolers / single air reserch turbo with it s own oil pump,cooler . Later I used an over drive box 1.20-1 between the engine and the drive. i told my some of my ideas fred miller this and maybe also using a 2 speed gear spliter.these projects thought up by me were way ahead and not allowed APBA. In the 90 s mr Gentry ran 454 his turbo set in 2 and 3 engine boats rpm 6500 . check his speeds . I dont know what was tried at lak x but nothing they sold me would push my boat over 90.my 44 msv in Italy twin BPM s ssm3 over drive s in sardenia raced 1mile run with carlo bonomi near the yacht club offshorse,martini rossi 35 cig. our speed was 11 mph faster . bonomi s boat was champion that year. with me are flippo theodoli / mrs theodli/ enrico carimati/ mrs carimati/carlo and crew/and all the yacht club watching.they had a gentilemans bet going.I built more than one of these ,another with v12 bpm turbo. OTAM marine in porto fino installed the engines for me,and ran the sea trials. I designed the hull to run 150 mph on paper . NOTHING HAPPENED BY LUCK engineering is my training . I will explain my hull concept in anothere post later. sonny miller

[T2x]

in 82 (IIRC) Smitty and Ted Toleman set the open class speed record (in a cat) at about 94 mph. Had Fayva's little cat not polluted the country side it would have held the record at about 120 mph. Then everyone realized that the surface drive on a cat really worked, So they took the "Big" Fayva cat to lake X and made what is the very first standoff box for a mercruiser drive, although it took up the whole transom-It Worked, on that day it became the fastest class 1 boat to ever run on the lake. From there Danny Wiensteins Powerplay "S Class" cat was the 2nd (to have standoff boxes). from there the drive hights and speeds elevated to what you have today.

This is as I remember it as well. The drag issue was huge and when we took the original Shadows to Lake X, Schwebie fought us tooth and nail on the raised X dimensions...until he saw the speeds and handling. After that the rules changed throughout the sport. In truth, Arneson was working in the same direction. I will say that as I walked the pits and saw my first Cougar Cats in the late 70's, I was stunned at how low the drives were..... Since I was racing outboard tunnels at the time the drive depths looked ridiculous to me (In fact they were).

In any event....... if the big MSV's were not as fast as the smaller Cigarettes and Scarabs of the day in the U.S., and the faster hulls were running only 70-80 in 1974-75 (on a good day)....... How did the MSV's gain so much speed above the state of the art? Unfortunately with all of the data that Sonny provided above, I don't see drive height or prop pitch to do a slip analysis, nor do I know where he obtained 4 blade props in 1974.... (Perhaps Record/Rolla?)

As far as Sonny's claim regarding Tom Gentry running very well in the early 90's...I agree...but don't see the connection to this discussion. I will say that the first two speed gearboxes that actually worked were developed in the late 80's to early 90's on the Victory team's nickle as I recall...at about the same time as the ZF/Buzzi project.... Is Sonny saying that there were 2 speed transmissions in the MSV's in the 70's? If so what happened to them?

I was always fascinated by the MSV's because of their size and my affection for Bobby. He always was involved with neat stuff and our collaboration on El Boss was one of my favorite projects.


T2x

[CAL500]

This is as I remember it as well. The drag issue was huge and when we took the original Shadows to Lake X, Schwebie fought us tooth and nail on the raised X dimensions...until he saw the speeds and handling. After that the rules changed throughout the sport. In truth, Arneson was working in the same direction. I will say that as I walked the pits and saw my first Cougar Cats in the late 70's, I was stunned at how low the drives were..... Since I was racing outboard tunnels at the time the drive depths looked ridiculous to me (In fact they were).

In any event....... if the big MSV's were not as fast as the smaller Cigarettes and Scarabs of the day in the U.S., and the faster hulls were running only 70-80 in 1974-75 (on a good day)....... How did the MSV's gain so much speed above the state of the art? Unfortunately with all of the data that Sonny provided above, I don't see drive height or prop pitch to do a slip analysis, nor do I know where he obtained 4 blade props in 1974.... (Perhaps Record/Rolla?)

As far as Sonny's claim regarding Tom Gentry running very well in the early 90's...I agree...but don't see the connection to this discussion. I will say that the first two speed gearboxes that actually worked were developed in the late 80's to early 90's on the Victory team's nickle as I recall...at about the same time as the ZF/Buzzi project.... Is Sonny saying that there were 2 speed transmissions in the MSV's in the 70's? If so what happened to them?

I was always fascinated by the MSV's because of their size and my affection for Bobby. He always was involved with neat stuff and our collaboration on El Boss was one of my favorite projects.


T2x

the 44 la tortuga ran in the low 80 s,ask bob Sacceeti / 600hp merc s 74 rolla you guessed it.the v 12 bpm projects were in europe and so is rolla. The fast msv projects ran turbo gas in the 70 s and gentry ran gas turbo in the 90 s I spoke to fred in the 90 s about checking out the new 2 speeds out there. I think rules restricted us to 496 no open chamber head s . if you win they would pull your heads and look. we were a little slower then cigarettes in flat sea , the concept of this hull was to master bad sea conditions. at full throttle.the 38 msv s well against the all others halpern wins 2 championships using our hull. we all had the same engines at that time. sonny miller we also ran 4 blades on popeye cig /swebs/ lax 73

[olli]

I don't want to throw a wet blanket over anything in this thread....and I find it fascinating.....

But......

T2x

:rolleyes:

Please do not ruin this thread. BT reminded of beautiful boats and found the right member to answer all the questions. It is rare enough that you find people who were involved in interesting projects and who are willing to speak about them and to post some pics of all these almost forgotten things. I personally do not give a feck if these boats went 80, 100 or 105. It does not matter.
:cuss:

[Black Tornado]

44 msv in Italy twin BPM s ssm3 over drive s in sardenia raced 1mile run with carlo bonomi near the yacht club offshorse,martini rossi 35 cig. our speed was 11 mph faster . bonomi s boat was champion that year. with me are flippo theodoli / mrs theodli/ enrico carimati/ mrs carimati/carlo and crew/and all the yacht club watching.they had a gentilemans bet going.

Sonny do you remember in that context you and Bonomi were to challenge in Sardinia?
Race? Testing the boats? Martini Sponsorship party?
Bonomi was World Champ in 1973 and 1974.
In 1973 he didn't have the 35'. In 1974 e 1975 the 35' was left in USA.
In Sardinia the offshore races started in 1978.

[T2x]

:rolleyes:

Please do not ruin this thread. BT reminded of beautiful boats and found the right member to answer all the questions. It is rare enough that you find people who were involved in interesting projects and who are willing to speak about them and to post some pics of all these almost forgotten things. I personally do not give a feck if these boats went 80, 100 or 105. It does not matter.
:cuss:


There is no problem with this thread....or asking questions. That's how you learn the whole story. And by the way, I do a give a feck if these boats went 80 or 100 or 105. The issue is why and how.

T2x

[T2x]

Sonny do you remember in that context you and Bonomi were to challenge in Sardinia?
Race? Testing the boats? Martini Sponsorship party?
Bonomi was World Champ in 1973 and 1974.
In 1973 he didn't have the 35'. In 1974 e 1975 the 35' was left in USA.
In Sardinia the offshore races started in 1978.

Was Don Pruett with Bonomi at that time as well?

[Top Banana]

Here is one of the old hull and decks still surviving.

The owner contacted me as the guy who sold it to him identified it as a "Banana Boat"

I think he said it measured out at 40 feet.

[Black Tornado]

Was Don Pruett with Bonomi at that time as well?

Richie Powers.

[Top Banana]

Pruett went on to a new team back in the States that was just getting involved in offshore racing.

As a matter of fact, he even taught the wife of the owner of the team how to drive a "speed" boat. How did that turn out? The woman was none other than Betty Cook.

[CAL500]

Was Don Pruett with Bonomi at that time as well?

No Mr. Pruett

I'm not sure of the year, but Bonomi was already world champion. Theodli told me he saw women in Bonomi's boat during that short sprint race. Carimati's boat had his wife riding with him and some other person.
-Sonny CIAO

[CAL500]

Here is one of the old hull and decks still surviving.

The owner contacted me as the guy who sold it to him identified it as a "Banana Boat"

I think he said it measured out at 40 feet.

That boat is an early Msv also note that is has 3 strikes.

[T2x]

Pruett went on to a new team back in the States that was just getting involved in offshore racing.

As a matter of fact, he even taught the wife of the owner of the team how to drive a "speed" boat. How did that turn out? The woman was none other than Betty Cook.

That would be Paul Cook's KUDU, but I thought Pruett spent most of the 70's in Italy? Could he have been with Balistreri?

[Brownie]

The APBA UIM official speed record for Class 1 was 90.455 for years and years. Bob Nordskog in the 'Little Cigarette'. Nobody came close until Cougar in the 80's.

[Black Tornado]

That would be Paul Cook's KUDU, but I thought Pruett spent most of the 70's in Italy? Could he have been with Balistreri?

Not in the 70's.
Pruett was with Balestrieri in the 1968 and in some races in 1969. Then he come back in USA.
Balestrieri replaced him with Jack Stuteville from 1970 to the 1973.
Then came Dave Wilson for the last two years of competitions of the Roman Champ in 1974 and 1975.

[DAREDEVIL]

Here is one of the old hull and decks still surviving.

The owner contacted me as the guy who sold it to him identified it as a "Banana Boat"

I think he said it measured out at 40 feet.

Did u buy it ?? NICE !!!!!!!!
1 more question,,,are banana boats and Advantage related ?

[Black Tornado]

The APBA UIM official speed record for Class 1 was 90.455 for years and years. Bob Nordskog in the 'Little Cigarette'. Nobody came close until Cougar in the 80's.

A little precisation; in 'The Little Cigarette' were Hal Sahlman and Harold Smith to set the world record of speed in the 1974 at 87.2mph.
The boat was one of the former 32' Cigarette that Balestrieri modified in 1971 cutting it to 31' with a deck in playwood.
Nordskog set his two records in 1975 and 1976 with his Cigarette 35' Powerboat Magazine Special at 88.7mph and 90.6mph.
The first official record breaking the 100mph barrier was set in 1980 by a British lady - Countess of Arran - at Windermere the famous lake of the speed records driving her Skean Dhu a 26'.5 Wright Marine powered with a couple of Mercury 225hp outboards!
At 102.5mph.
Skean Dhu wasn't a traditional cat but it was a trimaran boat.

[Top Banana]

Did u buy it ?? NICE !!!!!!!!
1 more question,,,are banana boats and Advantage related ?

What is an Advantage??

[DAREDEVIL]

What is an Advantage??

LOL,,,,sorry i ment avanti !:rolleyes::sifone:

[T2x]

A little precisation; in 'The Little Cigarette' were Hal Sahlman and Harold Smith to set the world record of speed in the 1974 at 87.2mph.
The boat was one of the former 32' Cigarette that Balestrieri modified in 1971 cutting it to 31' with a deck in playwood.
Nordskog set his two records in 1975 and 1976 with his Cigarette 35' Powerboat Magazine Special at 88.7mph and 90.6mph.
The first official record breaking the 100mph barrier was set in 1980 by a British lady - Countess of Arran - at Windermere the famous lake of the speed records driving her Skean Dhu a 26'.5 Wright Marine powered with a couple of Mercury 225hp outboards!
At 102.5mph.
Skean Dhu wasn't a traditional cat but it was a trimaran boat.

Agreed...and we all can also agree that any of these boats when setup for an actual race (fuel load, weight forward, rough water props,etc) were considerably slower. the little Cigarette's and Skean Dhu were small special purpose boats designed for speed alone. Nordskog, whose boat was full sized, controlled the APBA at that time and had huge horsepower in his turbo charged engines. I am not saying that he cheated, rather that his boat fit the limit of the rules as written, and even he couldn't get near 100 mph. Most of the other Open boats had less power, and more dependability in the big seas races of the time.

I still would like to know precisely how the biggest boat on the race course at that time could also be the fastest?

T2x

[T2x]

What is an Advantage??

That's when someone has a clear cut superiority in a given area over the competition........ Like Brownie's ability with women...... :D

[Brownie]

Post #34 pretty much covers it. It had 3 strikes. No wonder it was so fast..... Maybe doggy MPH?

[FLYING FISH]

Skean Dhu, a special purpose boat designed for speed alone? What makes you think that.It won it`s class on several occasions in Class IIID offshore racing,which was more than a trip round the bay (as per key west) and that was in a class with more than 4 boats as the U.S. like to do, and then call themselves World Champions,but that`s a thread in itself.OK it wasn`t OP1,but still a noteworthy achievement.

[CAL500]

Post #34 pretty much covers it. It had 3 strikes. No wonder it was so fast..... Maybe doggy MPH?

thats three strakes 160 km /hr sorry you were not around to see them run. slow boats 40 cig 40 corsa 40 gara 40 somthing tempest sonny miller

[CAL500]

Agreed...and we all can also agree that any of these boats when setup for an actual race (fuel load, weight forward, rough water props,etc) were considerably slower. the little Cigarette's and Skean Dhu were small special purpose boats designed for speed alone. Nordskog, whose boat was full sized, controlled the APBA at that time and had huge horsepower in his turbo charged engines. I am not saying that he cheated, rather that his boat fit the limit of the rules as written, and even he couldn't get near 100 mph. Most of the other Open boats had less power, and more dependability in the big seas races of the time.

I still would like to know precisely how the biggest boat on the race course at that time could also be the fastest?

T2x
the msv 44 built for mr carmati at that time had twin v12 bpms 1200 hp each at 4500 rpm connected to bpm z boxes 1.20 to1 overdrive,this turns the prop over 5000 rpm. these engines were hand built by OTAM S.P.A. They were dyno tested and installed by them. The exhaust were dry exiting thru the hatchs . ssm3 4 blade props. flippo sold this boat for me and attended the sea trials. sonny miller thanks for the question

[TrippM]

the msv 44 built for mr carmati at that time had twin v12 bpms 1200 hp each at 4500 rpm connected to bpm z boxes 1.20 to1 overdrive,this turns the prop over 5000 rpm. these engines were hand built by OTAM S.P.A. They were dyno tested and installed by them. The exhaust were dry exiting thru the hatchs . ssm3 4 blade props. flippo sold this boat for me and attended the sea trials. sonny miller thanks for the question

What year was that done?

[T2x]

the msv 44 built for mr carmati at that time had twin v12 bpms 1200 hp each at 4500 rpm connected to bpm z boxes 1.20 to1 overdrive,this turns the prop over 5000 rpm. these engines were hand built by OTAM S.P.A. They were dyno tested and installed by them. The exhaust were dry exiting thru the hatchs . ssm3 4 blade props. flippo sold this boat for me and attended the sea trials. sonny miller thanks for the question

So was that the boat you referred to earlier in the quote below?

"yellow popeye msv 44 ran in pointpleasent ( fuego tutto) 100mph"

Also how did you get # 3 drives to survive with 1200 hp running through them?

Sorry to keep asking questions, but I am trying to understand the speeds attributed to the open boats racing in the U.S.

T2x

[T2x]

Skean Dhu, a special purpose boat designed for speed alone? What makes you think that.It won it`s class on several occasions in Class IIID offshore racing,which was more than a trip round the bay (as per key west) and that was in a class with more than 4 boats as the U.S. like to do, and then call themselves World Champions,but that`s a thread in itself.OK it wasn`t OP1,but still a noteworthy achievement.

Point taken, but that hull was a trimaran, and considerably faster and lighter than any standard vee bottomed hull of that era. A few of those designs made it over here (they still pop up from time to time in newer "original" forms of one kind or another) The bottom line is that the Skean Dhu style hull was faster in calm water than a vee, and not quite as fast as a good cat.

As far as US World champions are concerned, back when Skean Dhu was racing the US fleets were the largest in the world........

Your comment no doubt pertains to the nonsense that has called itself "racing" for the the last 5 to 7 years stateside.

T2x

[CAL500]

What year was that done?
not sure flippo was still living in Italy and still a magnum dealer ,maybe 77-78. just before flippo and katrina bought magnum from don,they also moved into the palm bay club. I will check when I shipped this boat . maybe marco can call OTAM in porto fino and pull the Carimati file and also Burno Mentasti file, to check dates. sonny miller thanks I will post photo s

[CAL500]

So was that the boat you referred to earlier in the quote below?

"yellow popeye msv 44 ran in pointpleasent ( fuego tutto) 100mph"

Also how did you get # 3 drives to survive with 1200 hp running through them?

Sorry to keep asking questions, but I am trying to understand the speeds attributed to the open boats racing in the U.S.

T2x good question 1-1 ssm3 ran hot ,I lost port drive once in testing . I added grafite power to the gear oil to help cool them , and used a slow throttle up. also I kept raising the x measurement until I saw some drop in the boost. you are right we had to be careful.sonny miller

[Top Banana]

Did u buy it ?? NICE !!!!!!!!
1 more question,,,are banana boats and Advantage related ?

Avanti......yes, that was pulled from a mold that JC Simon sold to someone in NJ or somewhere.

Paradox has one on here only it is 33 feet, same bottom as the Banana and Coyote with just two strakes not three like the Cobra MSV boats.

Avanti....yes Brownie wouldn't do as well with an Avanti as he would with an Advantage in those particular situations Rich spoke of.

[Top Banana]

not sure flippo was still living in Italy and still a magnum dealer ,maybe 77-78. just before flippo and katrina bought magnum from don,they also moved into the palm bay club. I will check when I shipped this boat . maybe marco can call OTAM in porto fino and pull the Carimati file and also Burno Mentasti file, to check dates. sonny miller thanks I will post photo s

Ted and Katrin bought Magnum in 76. Don owned both Cigarette and Magnum at the same time in part of 75 and part of 76 until the deal was done.

[FLYING FISH]

Unless I`ve missed something on this thread,I still can`t be clear on the builder of the 44ft Popeye.If MSV Inc built La Tortuga,where does Mands Marine fit in the Popeye build.Also if Miller was the designer,what role did Saccenti and Varese play,or was it an overlap of design ideas.

[TrippM]

not sure flippo was still living in Italy and still a magnum dealer ,maybe 77-78. just before flippo and katrina bought magnum from don,they also moved into the palm bay club. I will check when I shipped this boat . maybe marco can call OTAM in porto fino and pull the Carimati file and also Burno Mentasti file, to check dates. sonny miller thanks I will post photo s

Could you give us more details on those engines? 1200hp engines in that time period, that would hold together, had to be very rare. I'm curious about the technology used to achieve those numbers.

[CAL500]

Unless I`ve missed something on this thread,I still can`t be clear on the builder of the 44ft Popeye.If MSV Inc built La Tortuga,where does Mands Marine fit in the Popeye build.Also if Miller was the designer,what role did Saccenti and Varese play,or was it an overlap of design ideas.

Mands marine is no where , Why are they pretending to have done this project?Msv built the 44 ft brown popeye race boat.Msv built the yellow cut down 44 ft popeye race boat. Msv built the dark yellow cut down 44 ft la tortuga race boat .Bob saccenti and I built all these boats together and raced them. I drew the drawings for this plug 44 ft - 8 ft wide - with a new sharp entry.we wanted to lighten the bow. most boats at that time were 9.6 wide ,heavy bow ,harder to trim up.they also created more wind drag. Bob and I hired nick chapman to build this plug in our shop in hollywood fla. bob vrooman and crew prepaired this hull plug ready for mold work.I will explain the strake design later.Vrooman also layed up this hull mold.chapman also built our deck plug and Vrooman again layed up our deck mold. the first hull and deck that was laid up was the big brown 44 msv popeye.all others were done later.I was on three other race teams thunderbird 9 races/ magnum donzi 4 races / cigarette 11races and the building and or rigging of these boats. I was ready for a new and better designed off shore boat project.bob saccenti and I worked together on this project from the start to the sea trial and finish of popeye. hull 1 . the boat has proven it s self . without bob saccenti Icould not have done this project.we were equal partners and will get equal credit. we are like brothers.I moved to europe, hard to see old friends. Varese replaced dominic after the fire in NJ. we started the 44 msv la tortuga with Varese and that was a new boat also built in our shop in hollywood.Later I rented the mold to mr joel halpern to build 10 hulls ,4 race layup and the rest pleasure boats.In the contract he or anyone else had no rites take of mold or remanufacture this boat in any way.he also had display in clear view cobra/38r MSV. bill swain brought me the checks from joel for each boat.they hired my glass crew with my ok.mr simon had no permission to use our hull for anything, bob and I should be credited for our hull design and champion ship by mr halpern also all other boat that were copied from us . SONNY MILLER

[CAL500]

Could you give us more details on those engines? 1200hp engines in that time period, that would hold together, had to be very rare. I'm curious about the technology used to achieve those numbers.

the normal bpm v 12 is 620 on low octane fuel ,square wet exhaust.also small webber carbs / std cams.. 4500 rpm carimati s v 12 engines were hand built. I recall his best pair of engines were turbo charged. 4500 rpm only,any more they explode. seatec 10 liter engines are at 1100 hp burning diesel fuel /4400 rpm/ and they are six cylinder? turbo

[FLYING FISH]

Thanks for that Sonny.You mention 8ft wide hulls.For your interest,all Don Shead OP1 boats from Miss Enfield in 1969 to the CUV hulls were 8ft beam,i.e. stretched from 32ft to 41ft long over a period of 18yrs.

[CAL500]

Thanks for that Sonny.You mention 8ft wide hulls.For your interest,all Don Shead OP1 boats from Miss Enfield in 1969 to the CUV hulls were 8ft beam,i.e. stretched from 32ft to 41ft long over a period of 18yrs.

yes,I forgot to mention europe , while racing with merrick lewis in europe I saw some of these boats . there styling and sleek forms were fantastic.they made a big impression on us. the races in england were like a boat show for race boats .all great teams , they should never be forgotten. Sonny miller.

[Black Tornado]

In the same year 1973 the friend-rival of Dominic Visconsi-Sandy Satullo jumped from the Cigs.36' to the new Gara-Corsa 40' of Barry Cordingly (at least I believe that Barry was the designer).
I don't have the sketches of the two boats - MSV 44' and Gara 40' - but from the photos it seems me that the two boats are resembled a lot in the hulls.
The V seems me equal and even the runnings strakes are three and in identical position nearly.
A coincidence or who has copied who?

[Black Tornado]

As far as US World champions are concerned, back when Skean Dhu was racing the US fleets were the largest in the world........
T2x

This didn't justify the fact to pretend that the World Championship had to exclusively be raced in US waters every year.
This happened after the Worlds finals of Key West of the 1981. The APBA didn't want to send around the World its champions anymore and pretended that the rest of the World every year introduced him to the presence of the temple of the god of the offshore Key West.
It was the beginning of the end of the offshore racing.
The rest they made the cats and the consequent more and more competitions inshore.

[CAL500]

In the same year 1973 the friend-rival of Dominic Visconsi-Sandy Satullo jumped from the Cigs.36' to the new Gara-Corsa 40' of Barry Cordingly (at least I believe that Barry was the designer).
I don't have the sketches of the two boats - MSV 44' and Gara 40' - but from the photos it seems me that the two boats are resembled a lot in the hulls.
The V seems me equal and even the runnings strakes are three and in identical position nearly.
A coincidence or who has copied who?

I recall paul haggerty former salesman at cigarette joining norman ziler of nyc , he financed this endeavour . nick chapman more or less lofted out this boat this boat hull plug for norman . norman was a former client of cigarette,and owner of blass port in nyc. bill blass designs. barry left sandy and went to work for norman . the gara 40 had a different bottom ,the bow area I think had a much sharper entry . they copied our three strakes . nick had already built our plug much early and under stood my three strake concept at msv. none of the other guys in this group could loft out anything. the hull was 40 long 9ft something wide .in the end had a high deck profile . by the way nick talked sandy into building another gara in wood ,less weight.from those same drawings. the glass boat made an excellent day cruiser. I will explain the 44 msv bottom and our no trim,minimum flap and dead level ,full throttle running in bad and difficult seas .we thought out this entire project,at that time my conclusion was we need stronger drives and more power to prove the full potential of this project. Sonny Miller ciao grazie

[Black Tornado]

Then was Nick Chapman the designer of the Gara?
Or a pool of guys?

[CAL500]

Then was Nick Chapman the designer of the Gara?
Or a pool of guys?

I sure it was norman ziler,working with nick . bob saccenti and I had built for mr. ziler in our old days at cigarette a 28 cig mr lucky and 36cig day boat .they operated in the hamptons.norman was a tuff nyc all business type guy. he directed every move in his quest to rival don. Gara project it seems after the point pleasant race our former plug builder got busy . paul haggery could have helped with the deck layout,after all he was to try to sell these boats? Sonny Miller I loved offshore running in very bad sea conditions ,its like punching a hole in an aqua hell . a true test of men and there equipment.

[Top Banana]

I don't want to take away from the discussion here on the MSV boats, but as you all can tell, Sonny Miller was a real pioneer in the sport. Sonny was one of the original guys with the tin boats as he worked with Merrick Lewis back in the Maritime days. He was a rigger that learned his trade well and even helped a new guy to the business by the name of Saccenti.........BUT a good friend of mine reminded me of a great story that only Sonny can tell......

What does Sonny and Christopher Columbus have in common?

Well, Columbus started a voyage for India and ended up in the Turks and Caicos.

Sonny started a voyage with a new Cigarette headed for Nassau.....and he also ended up in the Turks and Caicos.

Sonny.....you fill in the details please....thanks.

[CAL500]

I don't want to take away from the discussion here on the MSV boats, but as you all can tell, Sonny Miller was a real pioneer in the sport. Sonny was one of the original guys with the tin boats as he worked with Merrick Lewis back in the Maritime days. He was a rigger that learned his trade well and even helped a new guy to the business by the name of Saccenti.........BUT a good friend of mine reminded me of a great story that only Sonny can tell......

What does Sonny and Christopher Columbus have in common?

Well, Columbus started a voyage for India and ended up in the Turks and Caicos.

Sonny started a voyage with a new Cigarette headed for Nassau.....and he also ended up in the Turks and Caicos. this is funny a new client in a new 28 cig picked me up in freeport ,heading down to nassau . we went south heading toward the jolders off williams Island .after 2 hr s we see nothing ,I discovered the owner ty rapped his key ball under the compass. that killed it .vhf radio good only 20 miles a bad afternoon storm and a hurricane coming from cuba we beached the boat on west andros. and tied up to a crashed air plane abandon there. 1/4 fuel left ,we saw hammer head sharks that glowed in the night,giant saw fish in the bites and wild boar running around.two water spouts near us,I saw the lights of andros town and was going to walk in to a phone.willy meyers shows up in a big helicopter and brought me more fuel.we drove to chubb quay ,and had a drink. back at cigarette don and bob saccenti are laughing telling everyone that something happened in the boat between me and this guys wife. Sonny miller

Sonny.....you fill in the details please....thanks.no turks and caicos

[CAL500]

Then was Nick Chapman the designer of the Gara?
Or a pool of guys?

Iam not sure norman ziler had shown me good renderings of artist conceptions of his new deck . maybe in the end ,nick was a master carpenter and could this hull alone. I will try to find out ,maybe someone else could tell us. Sonny miller ciao bona notte

[FLYING FISH]

As this thread is rapidly becoming the Sonny Miller story,and why not,and the fact that charlie has let the cat out of the bag re the Maritime era,how about some Maritime pics posted even if it`s on another thread.Particular ones being Maritime Too (1965),Hustler III (1971),Thumper Too (1968/70),Boss O Nova (1968).
Marco will be on the edge of his seat awaiting these pics.
For your amusement Sonny,if you look on the multimedia section of the Boatmad.com site under non racing pics,there are some shots of Momma Maritime and Baby Maritime taken at Fairey Marine when the boats came over to the UK for the Wills Int in 1967.I crept into Faireys as a teenager to snap them before being escorted out the front gate!

[Black Tornado]

As this thread is rapidly becoming the Sonny Miller story,and why not,and the fact that charlie has let the cat out of the bag re the Maritime era,how about some Maritime pics posted even if it`s on another thread.Particular ones being Maritime Too (1965),Hustler III (1971),Thumper Too (1968/70),Boss O Nova (1968).
Marco will be on the edge of his seat awaiting these pics.
For your amusement Sonny,if you look on the multimedia section of the Boatmad.com site under non racing pics,there are some shots of Momma Maritime and Baby Maritime taken at Fairey Marine when the boats came over to the UK for the Wills Int in 1967.I crept into Faireys as a teenager to snap them before being escorted out the front gate!

You still hope in some photos.
We pursue this chimera again.

[CAL500]

As this thread is rapidly becoming the Sonny Miller story,and why not,and the fact that charlie has let the cat out of the bag re the Maritime era,how about some Maritime pics posted even if it`s on another thread.Particular ones being Maritime Too (1965),Hustler III (1971),Thumper Too (1968/70),Boss O Nova (1968).
Marco will be on the edge of his seat awaiting these pics.
For your amusement Sonny,if you look on the multimedia section of the Boatmad.com site under non racing pics,there are some shots of Momma Maritime and Baby Maritime taken at Fairey Marine when the boats came over to the UK for the Wills Int in 1967.I crept into Faireys as a teenager to snap them before being escorted out the front gate! I am starting to feel old .to keep it straight , I started with merrick in the norskog holocaust,then thunderbird # 50 and then thunderbird # 250 and then thunderbird #283 and then came back to usa and started the mama maritime project . I was in until sea trials only . Sonny Miller Thanks

[Top Banana]

this is funny a new client in a new 28 cig picked me up in freeport ,heading down to nassau . we went south heading toward the jolders off williams Island .after 2 hr s we see nothing ,I discovered the owner ty rapped his key ball under the compass. that killed it .vhf radio good only 20 miles a bad afternoon storm and a hurricane coming from cuba we beached the boat on west andros. and tied up to a crashed air plane abandon there. 1/4 fuel left ,we saw hammer head sharks that glowed in the night,giant saw fish in the bites and wild boar running around.two water spouts near us,I saw the lights of andros town and was going to walk in to a phone.willy meyers shows up in a big helicopter and brought me more fuel.we drove to chubb quay ,and had a drink. back at cigarette don and bob saccenti are laughing telling everyone that something happened in the boat between me and this guys wife. Sonny miller


Bobby told me that he had moved your toolbox over to his area and when you came back to Cigarette, he told you that he heard you were a goner, so he just took over your toolbox.....but since you were still alive, here it is back again.

Those were great days before GPS. The racers of today don't realize that every race we went to, we had to swing the compasses all over again on the day before the race, or they could not be counted on to work correctly.

[Top Banana]

Here are some shots of Sonny back in the day.

A couple of Mama Maritimes and then Nordkog's Holacaust, with the chines that came down to stabilize the boat as it began to chine walk and finally one of Wishnicks many rides....this one a tin boat by Maritime.

[Top Banana]

Here are some right from the win at the first Benihana.

HORBA has over 30,000 images and is putting a lot of these unseenones in our new book Bluewater Warriors, Offshore Racing's Golden Era of the Deep Vee...1970 - 1980.

Bottom photo with the trophy.....left to right. Bobby Saccenti, Rocky Aoki, Sonny Miller and Jon Varese.

[Top Banana]

Here is the awards dinner at the Kings Grant Inn in New Jersey.

[Black Tornado]

Here are some shots of Sonny back in the day.

A couple of Mama Maritimes and then Nordkog's Holacaust, with the chines that came down to stabilize the boat as it began to chine walk and finally one of Wishnicks many rides....this one a tin boat by Maritime.


Maritime Too (1965),Hustler III (1971),Thumper Too (1968/70),Boss O Nova (1968).

Always praiseworthy your efforts in to put photo from your precious archive Charlie - but none of these satisfies the requests of Flying Fish and me unfortunately.
Hard it is to look for those four among yours over 30.000.
And are alls four before the 1970's-1980's.

[FastDonzi]

Here is the awards dinner at the Kings Grant Inn in New Jersey.


I think after this pic Bob S went out and filmed the Saturday Night Fever Movie, or was a Pimp, sharp dresser either way:blush5:

[CAL500]

Here is the awards dinner at the Kings Grant Inn in New Jersey.

bob looked good , I looked like an early wayne newton, or something! sonny miller

[Brownie]

In the Sonny Miller three boat pic, #33 is Sam Sarra and Merrick Lewis, and #23 Is Billy Wishnick, Art Koopmans and me. My favorite Sonny MIller race story is when he forgot to show up for the race in WPB/Lucaya with Jim Breuil. Must have been some of that aqua hell he was talking about.........

[CAL500]

Here are some shots of Sonny back in the day.

A couple of Mama Maritimes and then Nordkog's Holacaust, with the chines that came down to stabilize the boat as it began to chine walk and finally one of Wishnicks many rides....this one a tin boat by Maritime.

that nordkog boat,when merrick and I raced it in west palm. it had twin engines on one big daytona v drive , one in the center and the other in the rear. two air ride bucket seats ,two foot throttles and one big clever rudder.those chine flaps cranked down by hand pump. sonny miller

[CAL500]

In the Sonny Miller three boat pic, #33 is Sam Sarra and Merrick Lewis, and #23 Is Billy Wishnick, Art Koopmans and me. My favorite Sonny MIller race story is when he forgot to show up for the race in WPB/Lucaya with Jim Breuil. Must have been some of that aqua hell he was talking about.........

did not happen, I ran with jim breuil in a single engine magnum /donzi . the no show ,I think was jake he was Ill . the aqua hell was tony roma ,s sonny miller - by the way the holocaust photo is in HORA home page

[Black Tornado]

#23 Is Billy Wishnick, Art Koopmans and me. ..

Became that Maritime the first Boss'O Nova in 1968?
I know of a Boss O'Nova in 1969 Bertram 32' former a Mona Lou of 1968 of Odell Lewis. :confused:

[FLYING FISH]

1968 - Wishnick raced the 32ft Maritime as Big Broad Jumper early in the season, then results indicate had entered the last few races in 68 as Boss O Nova.Was the boat repainted with revised graphics?

1969 - Bahamas 500.Both 31ft Bertrams Mona Lou IV and Boss O Nova raced together,so are you having a senior moment here Marco? and yes I did refer to them as 31ft not 32ft.

One day we may get back to MSV via the history of offshore.

[Brownie]

I drove the 31' Bertram, Boss O' Nova, in the 1969 Bahamas 500. Crew was Bobby Moore and Capt. Moxie the navigator. I jumped out in Nassau, the halfway point with neck problems from the previous Miami-Nassau race. That was my last Class 1 race. Bobby and Moxie finished the race in the top 5, I think. That boat was the very first set of #3 Speedmasters.

[Black Tornado]

1969 - Bahamas 500.Both 31ft Bertrams Mona Lou IV and Boss O Nova raced together,so are you having a senior moment here Marco? and yes I did refer to them as 31ft not 32ft.

One day we may get back to MSV via the history of offshore.

Graham here you want to reopen the Mona Lou dilemma!
I have spent several posts about this without answers.
I believe that they have existed at least three Bertram 31' (a lot of sources quote 32') that they brought the name Mona Lou.
1967 a white-yellow #90 maybe former Sternwinder. (see the footage Run Sunward for details).
1968 a red version #70 that it became the Boss O'Nova (I?).
1968 the former three engines Ronda Lee of Bakos. (maybe the red one above?)
1969 another white-yellow Mona Lou IV very similar to the 1967 Sternwinder-Mona Lou.
Maybe we must open a new thread....

[Brownie]

For all you poor Yankee and foreign souls, we had a few beers with Odell (Mona Lou), John Bakos (Rhonda Lee) Steve Sirois, brother of Bill (Sternwinder) and about 40 others a couple of weeks ago in Jupiter, Fl. If you have a question for Odell, I have his email address (actually Mona Lou's) and would be glad to forward.

[Black Tornado]

For all you poor Yankee and foreign souls, we had a few beers with Odell (Mona Lou), John Bakos (Rhonda Lee) Steve Sirois, brother of Bill (Sternwinder) and about 40 others a couple of weeks ago in Jupiter, Fl. If you have a question for Odell, I have his email address (actually Mona Lou's) and would be glad to forward.

You have had a very cool meet among you veterans where if my poor soul had been present would have submerged you of questions that of sure you would have taken me and thrown in water.
I have a mountain of questions for Mr. Odell Lewis....
Then I have created a new thread. ---->

[CAL500]

1968 - Wishnick raced the 32ft Maritime as Big Broad Jumper early in the season, then results indicate had entered the last few races in 68 as Boss O Nova.Was the boat repainted with revised graphics?

1969 - Bahamas 500.Both 31ft Bertrams Mona Lou IV and Boss O Nova raced together,so are you having a senior moment here Marco? and yes I did refer to them as 31ft not 32ft.

One day we may get back to MSV via the history of offshore.

For those who want to know: The mama maritime was built at Alliance Machine Co. in Alliance, OH.

The hull & deck was constructed of aluminum welded panels and T-bar. The trailer was bought in Scranton, PA. IT was rigged at Maritime Boats in Hialeah, FL. The boat had Ford engines. Dave Starret and Nick Finnerty and others, myself included. BTW, I worked under Dave Starret for one year before going to Thunderbird.

Later, Merrick Lewis added a Lamborghini Miura (Lime, Salad Green) at the rear of the trailer with ramps. http://image.europeancarweb.com/f/8631059+w750+st0/0310ec_02z+1972_Miura_P400_SV+Driver_Side_Front_View.jpg

-SM

[seeroy]

http://i50.tinypic.com/rvc20y.jpg

[T2x]

..........................

I couldn't agree with you more...... I think?

[seeroy]

Thanks Rich - I posted this pic because I had not met Sonny Miller before and, unfortunately, I did not meet him at OFF. However, as I looked through photos taken by Iris at the sign in table, this one baffled me until today. The thrid photo posted by Charlie in Post #74 identified Sonny. Kinda looks like what Mr. Sun Glasses would have looked like back in the day. Soooooo......My question is...Is this Sonny Miller at OFF? I introduced myself to many folks at OFF that I had not previously met and was often pleasantly suprised when they responded with their name. If it is Sonny, I offer my apology for not introducing myself to him. I was kinda busy. If it's not Sonny, somebody please help me with a name. - Steve Sirois

[CAL500]

Thanks Rich - I posted this pic because I had not met Sonny Miller before and, unfortunately, I did not meet him at OFF. However, as I looked through photos taken by Iris at the sign in table, this one baffled me until today. The thrid photo posted by Charlie in Post #74 identified Sonny. Kinda looks like what Mr. Sun Glasses would have looked like back in the day. Soooooo......My question is...Is this Sonny Miller at OFF? I introduced myself to many folks at OFF that I had not previously met and was often pleasantly suprised when they responded with their name. If it is Sonny, I offer my apology for not introducing myself to him. I was kinda busy. If it's not Sonny, somebody please help me with a name. - Steve Sirois yes thats me , also I Knew Bill Sirois from working on projects I have some photos with him in. I will send them to you. when I was at OFF I spoke with Gene Lantham and some others. Great job in setting that OFF up. Where was Saccenti ? ....... My son,s are asking me now, hey you tell us you did something in offshore racing What ? normally I stay quiet. sonny miller thanks See you next time

[seeroy]

Sonny - I gotta tell you, I am amazed that my powers of deductive reasoning actually figured this one out. That photo has baffled me up until now. Since Iris took the photo, I asked her if she remembered who it was. She could only remember that you did not put down an e-mail address when you signed in, but that you put down an address. Soooo...Right now I am looking at the sign in sheet and I see that you put down St Augustine. Does that mean you live only 35 miles from me here in Atlantic Beach? Shortly before OFF, Sammy James called me and asked if Jack Stutteville was coming. I said I didn't know. Sammy replied that Jack had a shop at the St Augustine airport. I immediately drove down there and knocked on the door to no avail. I left my phone number with the landlord, still to no avail. I will send you a PM with my personal e-mail address so you can send photo of Bill that you referenced....OR I could just run down to St Augustine some day. Furthermore, I think, you sent an e-mail to the OFF2009 address. I will go back and check that. By the way, the following link will take you to followup photos from OFF. Best Regards - Steve Sirois

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183058&page=7

[CAL500]

Sonny - I gotta tell you, I am amazed that my powers of deductive reasoning actually figured this one out. That photo has baffled me up until now. Since Iris took the photo, I asked her if she remembered who it was. She could only remember that you did not put down an e-mail address when you signed in, but that you put down an address. Soooo...Right now I am looking at the sign in sheet and I see that you put down St Augustine. Does that mean you live only 35 miles from me here in Atlantic Beach? Shortly before OFF, Sammy James called me and asked if Jack Stutteville was coming. I said I didn't know. Sammy replied that Jack had a shop at the St Augustine airport. I immediately drove down there and knocked on the door to no avail. I left my phone number with the landlord, still to no avail. I will send you a PM with my personal e-mail address so you can send photo of Bill that you referenced....OR I could just run down to St Augustine some day. Furthermore, I think, you sent an e-mail to the OFF2009 address. I will go back and check that. By the way, the following link will take you to followup photos from OFF. Best Regards - Steve Sirois

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183058&page=7

OK. the photo shows bill sirois ,dick clark , bob larsen , and me behind a 60 Infinity in fort lauderdale marina. sonny miller

[Geronimo36]

the APBA rules only allows two engines, I dreamed of three engines .the turbo engines from flagship were 800 hp each,more punch than the 600 hp merc,s. at The first sea trial in miami this new race boat run just under 100 mph.we were excited , but the engines were a new type turbo setup they had a lot of power when they were cool . we pushed them hard,we lead the race to the first check point . you know the rest .crew dominic /tony/myself sonny

Awesome stuff!!! My father's boat, a 30' Fino had a pair of Flagship Turbo 468's, 600 hp a piece. I don't know if they were intercooled or water injected but I do remember there being a water tank... One time my father forgot to fill up the tank and burned some pistons. :( They were built sometime in the mid 70's, Freeport, NY. :USA:

[CAL500]

Awesome stuff!!! My father's boat, a 30' Fino had a pair of Flagship Turbo 468's, 600 hp a piece. I don't know if they were intercooled or water injected but I do remember there being a water tank... One time my father forgot to fill up the tank and burned some pistons. :( They were built sometime in the mid 70's, Freeport, NY. :USA:

yes , the engines we bought from flagship marine /tom fowelman/ were water cooled also. they called them 850/ 900 race engines . the air box split open sending out raw fuel.you know the rest. sonny miller thanks

[CAL500]

OK. the photo shows bill sirois ,dick clark , bob larsen , and me behind a 60 Infinity in fort lauderdale marina. sonny miller
49701

49702
Here are the pictures we promised.
-Sonny

[CAL500]

49701

49702
Here are the pictures we promised.
-Sonny

here is a photo of one of the turbo projects done in the 70,s. I built two of theses for mr george d,almeida ajaro in st tropez france .

[Black Tornado]

here is a photo of one of the turbo projects done in the 70,s. I built two of theses for mr george d,almeida ajaro in st tropez france .

Hi Sonny,
the boat was a MSV 44'?

[CAL500]

Hi Sonny,
the boat was a MSV 44'?

Marco, this is a 40' Cigarette in that photo. IT was custom built for Mr. Almeda and was never raced. This boat operated in St. Tropez harbour. I was trying to show the existence of turbocharged engines in the early seventies.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009021.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009020.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009019.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009017.jpg

Mr.Carimati's 44' MSV: It was green and called "Dumbo" with a picture of an elephant on the side for his son. His engine compartment had twin BPM 850hp with BPM z-box overdrives connected to mercury #3 SSM3 with four blade 24 props. This is in the 1970's... '75 or '76. His next project was a '40 MSV; it was red and had Daffy Duck on the side with twin BPM turbo 1200hp engines with BPM z-box with overdrive and connected to Merc SSM#3 and rolla custom props.

Here's a shot of one of his engine bays:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009-1.jpg


This pair of boats is the standard MSV production boats built in the 1970's.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009006.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009005.jpg

[CAL500]

This is a few pictures of our current project.
The first image you see is the line drawing:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009016.jpg

The wooden form:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009004-1.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009003.jpg

The Two-Strake Molds:
1, Narrow
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009013.jpg
2, Widened
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009015.jpg


Pictures of the boat complete/running:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009001.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009002.jpg

Current Drive-System Projects:
Boat in this photo is 66'; 128,000lbs; twin 1000 cats and CAL500 drives.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009009.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009011.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12242009012.jpg

.......More shots to come........

[Black Tornado]

Looking in my archive I have found this only photo that withdraws 44' Dumbo to his presentation to the Fiera della Nautica di Genova(Genua Boat Show) I believe in 1975.
The poster says -Unpublished M & S 44'-.

[CAL500]

Looking in my archive I have found this only photo that withdraws 44' Dumbo to his presentation to the Fiera della Nautica di Genova(Genua Boat Show) I believe in 1975.
The poster says -Unpublished M & S 44'-. yes marco this is the boat that raced against doc. carlo bonomi in the summer before this show . the red daffy duck msv 40 was built later. the 40 was the original order of mr bruno mentasti of aqua mineriale san pellegrino milano . enrico wanted the newest and fastest boat . he took over the project and add more overdrive ratio and turbos and better props by rolla.Iam trying to find fotos of daffy duck project,maybe they are in europe. this boat was by far the fastest . mr carimati was to challenge the uim speed record , but was then in divorce and canceled.OTAM SPA. ran the sea trials near Porto fino . I will try to get copies. The M&S was miller and saccenti 72 until 76 then we added V when jon varese bought out mr visconsi. Mr visconsi requested his name only on the race boats. ciao sonny BTW thats magnum marines booth

[CAL500]

This is MSV Celebrity 38 Brochure. This boat also used the MSV 38 hull as the same as Cobra.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/brochure.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/brochure001.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/brochure002.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/brochure003.jpg

[Black Tornado]

Sonny,are the same type of boats of thats last two of the post #100?
What means 'CAL500'?

[Powerabout]

the normal bpm v 12 is 620 on low octane fuel ,square wet exhaust.also small webber carbs / std cams.. 4500 rpm carimati s v 12 engines were hand built. I recall his best pair of engines were turbo charged. 4500 rpm only,any more they explode. seatec 10 liter engines are at 1100 hp burning diesel fuel /4400 rpm/ and they are six cylinder? turbo

1200HP @ 4500 rpm , at that low rpm means a bit over 1400ftlbs
all via a IIISSM...ouch
or reduced by 20% using 1.2 overdrive
= 1150ish ftlbs
That would shift a heavy boat...

[CAL500]

Sonny,are the same type of boats of thats last two of the post #100?
What means 'CAL500'?

The answer is 'yes' and we now include larger picture of one of the two boats on post #100. MSV '38, yellow production model came from the mold at MSV the same as Cobra.

At the factory in hollywood i built around 14 like this- non race. In 1977 I started MSV Celebrity '38 style project. I built about 14 copies also with that type deck. I also built around four 40 foot MSV hulls for custom projects. These were done starting in '73 and ending in '84. As you can see, I built MSV '38 boats from my mold long before the Cobra '38R/MSV project and long after they were gone.

I get mad when someone says Mr. Simon blocked my molds. Mr. Simon was nowhere near my business and never allowed in my office or shop. By the way, CAL500 is my operating company in France and Dominican Republic.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/BOATS2.jpg

-Sonny Miller

[CAL500]

1200HP @ 4500 rpm , at that low rpm means a bit over 1400ftlbs
all via a IIISSM...ouch
or reduced by 20% using 1.2 overdrive
= 1150ish ftlbs
That would shift a heavy boat...


Thanks for the reply.

This setup was ran in(1975)my MSV '40 weighing 11,000lbs, light on fuel using the 1.2 overdrive as you stated. The #3 SSM were 1:1 ratio with heavy duty upper-vertical shafts made in Italy. My rolla 4 blade props (I recall) were 26 pitch, 4% to 5% slip. At prop speed max around 5,000RPM at 28lbs boost. The engines were turbocharged by OTAM SPA. Water intercooled. Around 1,200hp each and around 1,400ft/lb torque. Transmissions were Crashbox offshore type.

Please calculate the speeds for me since I can't get the speed charts until I go to Europe.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/12272009001.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/enginesbpm.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/Gee-Es-Tee/engines.jpg

-Sonny Miller

[Powerabout]

Spinning a 26p to 5000 rpm with 5% slip = 106mph

[CAL500]

Spinning a 26p to 5000 rpm with 5% slip = 106mph
Thanks for the post, I will post drawings of that boat with the engines we described, and some photos later. We are also including other MSV projects. 51520

51521

51522

[CAL500]

thanks for the post, i will post drawings of that boat with the engines we described, and some photos later. We are also including other msv projects. 51520

51521

51522

51523

[Black Tornado]

Hi Sonny,
here a pic of you with the Popeye 36' Cig duelling with Magoon during the Catalina Challenge of 1972.

[CAL500]

Hi Sonny,
here a pic of you with the Popeye 36' Cig duelling with Magoon during the Catalina Challenge of 1972.
marco
thanks for the foto , where do you get these? this is the race where magoon followed us all the way around the coarse and also passing ship rock check point and on to the finish near queen elizabeth cruise liner. we finish first and won, only to find out that the ship rock check point said they did not see our race number , but they did see magoons boat and that was him only by the fact that carls helo was over his boat. shore line fog and haze pollution, plus politics dominic sr. said to me later. magoon wins we were both a quarter mile away from that check point. we were running injection and new heads and cams, I think we were two miles per hour faster . we only finished slightly ahead, it was a race right to the end. ciao ancora sonny miller we also raced at marina del rey and long beach and a few others out there.

[littlenige]

Gents,
I just want to say what a great read this thread has been thus far!

[CAL500]

53313

53314

Does anybody remember these guys that are listed? Bob Saccenti and I worked on most of these projects.

-Sonny Ciao ancora

[Black Tornado]

Ciao Sonny,
almost all they are recognizable, but unfortunately the list doesn't say the year and what type of boat they bought.

[CAL500]

Ciao Sonny,
almost all they are recognizable, but unfortunately the list doesn't say the year and what type of boat they bought. bob and I will try to match as many as we can . ciao marco,

[Geronimo36]

Does anybody remember these guys that are listed? Bob Saccenti and I worked on most of these projects.

-Sonny Ciao ancora

Wow, that's an awesome list!!!:cheers2:

[bertsboat]

OFF is next month and I have tried, in vein, to get Jack Stutteville there for many years. Hope to see you there.


Thanks Rich - I posted this pic because I had not met Sonny Miller before and, unfortunately, I did not meet him at OFF. However, as I looked through photos taken by Iris at the sign in table, this one baffled me until today. The thrid photo posted by Charlie in Post #74 identified Sonny. Kinda looks like what Mr. Sun Glasses would have looked like back in the day. Soooooo......My question is...Is this Sonny Miller at OFF? I introduced myself to many folks at OFF that I had not previously met and was often pleasantly suprised when they responded with their name. If it is Sonny, I offer my apology for not introducing myself to him. I was kinda busy. If it's not Sonny, somebody please help me with a name. - Steve Sirois