PDA

View Full Version : Freebenkramer.com?



Dude! Sweet!
10-15-2009, 06:50 PM
What ever happened to that web site and anyone know what the real story behind it was? Was it a joke? Legit?

DAREDEVIL
10-15-2009, 06:59 PM
What ever happened to that web site and anyone know what the real story behind it was? Was it a joke? Legit?

I thik it was his son trying to get funds to get him out ??!!!

Buoy
10-16-2009, 01:27 AM
I thik it was his son trying to get funds to get him out ??!!!

and use the the funds for what? Another helicopter charter?

phragle
10-16-2009, 02:06 AM
jetpack...helicopters are so oldschool....

Sean Stinson
10-18-2009, 01:15 PM
Ben apparently has some action that would allow him to have the RICO part of his case overturned which would then give him new sentencing which he at this point would have done time served on as well as the rest of the convictions he has which he has already served at this point!!!!

DollaBill
10-18-2009, 01:33 PM
Well if thats the case i think it would be easy to raise some cash

Chris
10-18-2009, 02:16 PM
He'll die where he is. What motivation would the State of Florida and the US DoJ have to release a major dope smuggler and confessed capital murderer?

It's not like we're talking about the freeing of Mandela from prison. But by present standards he's probabaly qualified for a Nobel.

DAREDEVIL
10-18-2009, 02:38 PM
He'll die where he is. What motivation would the State of Florida and the US DoJ have to release a major dope smuggler and confessed capital murderer?

It's not like we're talking about the freeing of Mandela from prison. But by present standards he's probabaly qualified for a Nobel.

AGAIN,,,he is not a confessed murderer !!!!!!:confused:

DollaBill
10-18-2009, 02:38 PM
eh, let him out on the condition he has to race again. Look at it this way, the price of weed would prob plunge for all you pot heads

Perlmudder
10-18-2009, 02:44 PM
eh, let him out on the condition he has to race again. Look at it this way, the price of weed would prob plunge for all you pot heads

win win!! :sifone:

MikeyFIN
10-18-2009, 02:49 PM
on legal terms DD is right.
He took a no contest so he didnīt challenge the accusations.
And the motive was to get to a better facility.

He shoulda done it in Sweden...
I know a few guys who served time during summers by a lake in a log cabin village that was fenced but the gate was open..
Guys were sentenced to the biggest tax fraud in Sweden, hiring illegal manpower for constructions, money laundering etc etc..
Well at least the Globen was built in time...and the sentences considered a joke overhere ..

MarylandMark
10-18-2009, 02:55 PM
All he has to do it write a book and he'll have all the $$ he needs to get out.

Look for a copy of Thunderboat Row lately?

MikeyFIN
10-18-2009, 02:59 PM
he could do even a fiction book or Screenwriting... think Cocaine Cowboys...

Chris
10-18-2009, 03:37 PM
No contest means that you don't dispute the charges and accept the consequences. And you surrender any and all right to appeal. You're splitting hairs on the "didn't confess" aspect. And the politicians who will make the decisions on his release know there's really no difference.

phragle
10-18-2009, 04:36 PM
. And you surrender any and all right to appeal. You're splitting hairs on the "didn't confess" aspect. And the politicians who will make the decisions on his release know there's really no difference.


Chris.... Though it happens infrequently, and may be the result generalization , you are wrong on this one. While the right to appeal on a nolo contendre varies from state to state on restrictiveness, it is not wholly without appeal. it gets even more complicated when you begin throwing Alford pleas in the mix. What most don't understand is the primary reason for the no contest plea. Although it has become a popular way of accepting a plea bargain to a lessor charge, the actual intent on pleading no contest is that it can not be used as a conviction in civil proceedings.
this means that if you drive drunk and hit somebody, you can plead no contest to the criminal charge, but in the civil case, they can NOT imply or state that you were convicted of drunk driving. it is up to the prosecuting atty to prove that you were driving drunk, the criminal convection cannot be admitted.

Ratickle
10-18-2009, 04:43 PM
I did not know that. Hmmmm, next time......:sifone:

Chris
10-18-2009, 06:04 PM
Chris.... Though it happens infrequently, and may be the result generalization , you are wrong on this one. While the right to appeal on a nolo contendre varies from state to state on restrictiveness, it is not wholly without appeal. it gets even more complicated when you begin throwing Alford pleas in the mix. What most don't understand is the primary reason for the no contest plea. Although it has become a popular way of accepting a plea bargain to a lessor charge, the actual intent on pleading no contest is that it can not be used as a conviction in civil proceedings.
this means that if you drive drunk and hit somebody, you can plead no contest to the criminal charge, but in the civil case, they can NOT imply or state that you were convicted of drunk driving. it is up to the prosecuting atty to prove that you were driving drunk, the criminal convection cannot be admitted.

In Florida, it doesn't work that way. Florida held in 2005 that "no contest" convictions may be treated as prior convictions for the purposes of future sentencing. http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/decisions/2005/sc02-1943.pdf

DAREDEVIL
10-18-2009, 06:08 PM
No contest,,,to me means i don't say anything,,,,neither dispute or agree !!!

Ratickle
10-18-2009, 06:10 PM
In Florida, it doesn't work that way. Florida held in 2005 that "no contest" convictions may be treated as prior convictions for the purposes of future sentencing. http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/decisions/2005/sc02-1943.pdf

So, it depends on the state?

Chris
10-18-2009, 06:19 PM
It is, but most follow the federal. Florida is one. There are different appellate interpretations that vary state-to-state.

Chris
10-18-2009, 06:25 PM
No contest,,,to me means i don't say anything,,,,neither dispute or agree !!!

The textbook definition of nolo contendere is pretty much found in the english translation of that latin term. "No contest". Or more plainly, "I do not contest the facts put forth by the State, nor any punishment handed down should the court find me guilty."

You get three choices; guilty, not guilty or no contest. If you choose not to take one, the judge will procedurally enter a plea of not guilty and bind you over for trial on the charges.

"I ain't sayin' $hit" is typically not an acceptable plea in most jurisdictions.

phragle
10-18-2009, 06:25 PM
Florida law..the defendent must specifically retain the right to appeal on limited issues...
Florida Criminal Procedure And Corrections Code Section 924.051 - Criminal Appeals And Collateral Review - Terms and conditions of appeals and collateral review in criminal cases.

Title XLVII CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND CORRECTIONS

Chapter 924 CRIMINAL APPEALS AND COLLATERAL REVIEW


924.051 Terms and conditions of appeals and collateral review in criminal cases.--
(1) As used in this section:
(a) "Prejudicial error" means an error in the trial court that harmfully affected the judgment or sentence.
(b) "Preserved" means that an issue, legal argument, or objection to evidence was timely raised before, and ruled on by, the trial court, and that the issue, legal argument, or objection to evidence was sufficiently precise that it fairly apprised the trial court of the relief sought and the grounds therefor.
(2) The right to direct appeal and the provisions for collateral review created in this chapter may only be implemented in strict accordance with the terms and conditions of this section.
(3) An appeal may not be taken from a judgment or order of a trial court unless a prejudicial error is alleged and is properly preserved or, if not properly preserved, would constitute fundamental error. A judgment or sentence may be reversed on appeal only when an appellate court determines after a review of the complete record that prejudicial error occurred and was properly preserved in the trial court or, if not properly preserved, would constitute fundamental error.
(4) If a defendant pleads nolo contendere without expressly reserving the right to appeal a legally dispositive issue, or if a defendant pleads guilty without expressly reserving the right to appeal a legally dispositive issue, the defendant may not appeal the judgment or sentence. (5) Collateral relief is not available on grounds that were or could have been raised at trial and, if properly preserved, on direct appeal of the conviction and sentence.

Geronimo36
10-19-2009, 09:58 AM
No contest,,,to me means i don't say anything,,,,neither dispute or agree !!!

Typically means; "faack, I'm dead in the water with all the chit they have against me so I better just get it over with so they don't totally rip me an even bigger a-hole!":26:

Can also mean; "Even if I beat this case, they're going to screw me on the next one even worse."

No contest = guilty in my eyes, otherwise you fight to the death....:lurk5:

Ratickle
10-19-2009, 10:01 AM
Typically means; "faack, I'm dead in the water with all the chit they have against me so I better just get it over with so they don't totally rip me an even bigger a-hole!":26:

Can also mean; "Even if I beat this case, they're going to screw me on the next one even worse."

No contest = guilty in my eyes, otherwise you fight to the death....:lurk5:

I have seen no contest pleas just to get it over with. Not worth fighting the original charge to it get done and over quickly with a baby slap.

Geronimo36
10-19-2009, 12:15 PM
some interesting info.....http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=11th&navby=case&no=905055ma2

http://www.fear.org/gonzalez.html
"In 1988, Benjamin Barry Kramer and certain co-defendants were convicted in the Southern District of Illinois of conspiring to import and distribute marijuana in violation of 21 U.S.C. § 841(a) and 846, and of being principal administrators of a continuing criminal enterprise, in violation of 21 U.S.C. § 848. The jury also returned a special verdict ordering Kramer to forfeit $60 million, which represented a portion of his ill-gotten gains from these criminal violations. (Now that's a lot of ganja! ;))

When traced, part of the marijuana money Kramer was ordered to forfeit was demonstrated to have been invested in the Bicycle Club.

In short, Kramer used the Bicycle Club to launder the huge profits he made smuggling drugs.

Kramer's money laundering was intricate. While conducting his drug trafficking operation, Kramer sent his drug proceeds to a
bank in Liechtenstein from whence it went to another offshore entity and then eventually to something called the LCP Partnership
(LCP), controlled by Sam Gilbert. Under Gilbert's direction, LCP entered into a joint venture with another California partnership,
Park Place Associates (PPA), run by California businessman George Hardie, to establish the Bicycle Club. Michael Gilbert, Sam
Gilbert's son, assisted his father in the money laundering and acquired a portion of LCP in the process.

When federal authorities learned about this money laundering operation, both Ben Kramer and Michael Gilbert (Sam Gilbert had
died in the interim) were prosecuted in the Southern District of Florida and, in 1990, convicted of violations of the RICO statute and the Travel Act.

The underlying offenses included the laundering of about $10.8 million through LCP -- money that, for the most part, had been derived from Ben Kramer's marijuana smuggling. As part of the judgment of conviction, Kramer was ordered to forfeit about $10 million. The interests of Kramer and Michael Gilbert in LCP were also ordered forfeited."

Geronimo36
10-19-2009, 12:22 PM
More info;
The Kramer organization imported an estimated 500,000 pounds of marijuana into the United States, resulting in a profit to Kramer of $60 million.

DAREDEVIL
10-19-2009, 04:04 PM
Well,,,all i can say is ,,let him out......there is nothing he has done what nobody else would of in his position in that time !!!!!!!:ack2:

Geronimo36
10-19-2009, 05:16 PM
Well,,,all i can say is ,,let him out......there is nothing he has done what nobody else would of in his position in that time !!!!!!!:ack2:

Dude, a 1/2 MILLION POUNDS of marijuana...that's not an Apache full of dope, it's like pulling up to the dock in Miami with an f'ing tanker full of weed..... and profit $60M (that's not even 2009 figures)....money laundering.....:lurk5:

Then the accusations of having Aronow killed, which can't be proven but even with the Aronow BS aside the amount of illegal dealings and money laudering and the attempted helicopter escape deserves the time in the pokey...

Until someone can prove to me otherwise my stance remains unchanged.:seeya:

Geronimo36
10-19-2009, 05:20 PM
Just did an inflation calculator.... $60M in 1989 is $103M in 2008.

Geronimo36
10-19-2009, 05:24 PM
If he was a smart business man he should have imported cocaine instead of marry-jane....could have maximized his profits....:rofl::rofl::rofl:

DAREDEVIL
10-19-2009, 05:31 PM
Do u know how many tons of cocaine got in to the US on military planes during NAM ??????

So Ben K. is a child against that !!!!!

DollaBill
10-19-2009, 05:32 PM
let him out on the conditions I stated. It would be great for ratings for CBS's upcoming schedule

DAREDEVIL
10-19-2009, 05:35 PM
let him out on the conditions I stated. It would be great for ratings for CBS's upcoming schedule

HAHAHA:rofl:


..but hey,,,they got me !!!!!!

phragle
10-19-2009, 05:37 PM
Just did an inflation calculator.... $60M in 1989 is $103M in 2008.

and invested in 2009 terms...$7.35 :ack2:

Geronimo36
10-19-2009, 05:57 PM
Do the crime you do the time, simple as that.

I didn't realize we had so many liberals on the site. lol

Maybe they can let him out and he can move to california and open up a new weed growing business... lol

Chris
10-19-2009, 06:03 PM
Do u know how many tons of cocaine got in to the US on military planes during NAM ??????

So Ben K. is a child against that !!!!!



"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell, no!"

MikeyFIN
10-19-2009, 06:12 PM
Do u know how many tons of cocaine got in to the US on military planes during NAM ??????

So Ben K. is a child against that !!!!!


And a child against George Morales too...

MikeyFIN
10-19-2009, 06:13 PM
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell, no!"


Germans :lurk5: ?????

phragle
10-19-2009, 06:22 PM
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell, no!"


You have to love a good Blutarsky quote!


Bluto's right, psychotic, but absolutely right.

phragle
10-19-2009, 06:23 PM
Who dumped a whole truck-load of fizzies into the swim-meet? Who delivered the medical school cadavers to the alumni dinner? Every Halloween, the trees are filled with underwear. Every spring, the toilets explode.

DollaBill
10-19-2009, 06:32 PM
Do the crime you do the time, simple as that.

I didn't realize we had so many liberals on the site. lol

Maybe they can let him out and he can move to california and open up a new weed growing business... lol

I dont know about liberals Frank, but there is a.. let's say... "connection" between Ben's actiivities and several members of our sport ;).

FREE BEN :sifone:

DAREDEVIL
10-19-2009, 06:46 PM
I dont know about liberals Frank, but there is a.. let's say... "connection" between Ben's actiivities and several members of our sport ;).

FREE BEN :sifone:

HAHAHA:rofl::USA:

Expensive Date
10-19-2009, 07:34 PM
Germans :lurk5: ?????



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI

Watch this you will understand.

MikeyFIN
10-19-2009, 07:36 PM
HAHAAAA.. one of my favourite movies !!!! Forgot about that line...

Chris
10-19-2009, 09:00 PM
That was in response to the line about American GI's exporting coke from Vietnam. The only coke in Vietnam is from Central America.

DAREDEVIL
10-19-2009, 09:08 PM
That was in response to the line about American GI's exporting coke from Vietnam. The only coke in Vietnam is from Central America.

right,,,where have u been ???:rofl:

phragle
10-19-2009, 09:22 PM
..

http://1funny.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/smugglerad.jpg

Geronimo36
10-19-2009, 09:58 PM
I dont know about liberals Frank, but there is a.. let's say... "connection" between Ben's actiivities and several members of our sport ;).

FREE BEN :sifone:

connections, informants, it's all the same! ;)

Roger 1
10-20-2009, 08:40 AM
Germans :lurk5: ?????

Don't stop Him, He's on a roll......

Geronimo36
10-20-2009, 09:06 AM
..

http://1funny.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/smugglerad.jpg


Do u know how many tons of cocaine got in to the US on military planes during NAM ??????

Opium dude, get it right! Also, it was "alleged", not "reported"! ;)


..

http://1funny.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/smugglerad.jpg

Classic post!


Don't stop Him, He's on a roll......

Classic post!!

Geronimo36
10-20-2009, 09:08 AM
So.....since it's the history channel....post some of the hard facts and not allegations, rumors, hearsay etc.!

Trivia question; Why is ben in jail, what was his prosecuted for?





Remember folks, there's no room for thruth on the internet! :)

DAREDEVIL
10-20-2009, 09:15 AM
So.....since it's the history channel....post some of the hard facts and not allegations, rumors, hearsay etc.!

Trivia question; Why is ben in jail, what was his prosecuted for?





Remember folks, there's no room for thruth on the internet! :)

Money Laundering

Chris
10-20-2009, 09:35 AM
I left my Magic Daredevil Decoder Ring at home this morning. Some of you may have to help me out.

DAREDEVIL
10-20-2009, 09:39 AM
I left my Magic Daredevil Decoder Ring at home this morning. Some of you may have to help me out.

HAHAHA:sifone:

Chris,,,your funny !!!!!!:rofl:

Geronimo36
10-20-2009, 10:04 AM
Money Laundering

Read the whole document...that's only part, they were convicted for RICO AND Travel Act violations, all of which are a result of trafficing 1/2 mil pounds of weed from 1982 - 1987.... :seeya:

The list was long and wide, that's why "no-contest".. ;)

Now he's claiming "double jeapordy" which he already tried an appeal and failed so he could get a re-sentence on a technicality and get out on time served...:lurk5:

Like Chris said, I don't think it'll happen.
http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/73/1067/557167/


Under RICO, a person who is a member of an enterprise that has committed any two of 35 crimes—27 federal crimes and 8 state crimes—within a 10-year period can be charged with racketeering. Those found guilty of racketeering can be fined up to $250,000 and/or sentenced to 20 years in prison per racketeering count. In addition, the racketeer must forfeit all ill-gotten gains and interest in any business gained through a pattern of "racketeering activity." RICO also permits a private individual harmed by the actions of such an enterprise to file a civil suit; if successful, the individual can collect treble damages.

* In violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1956(a)(2)(B)(i) and 2.
(a) shall be sentenced to a fine of not more than $500,000 or twice the value of the property involved in the transaction, whichever is greater, or imprisonment for not more than twenty years, or both.
(B) shall be sentenced to a fine of not more than $500,000 or twice the value of the property involved in the transaction, whichever is greater, or imprisonment for not more than twenty years, or both.


being citizens of the United States, did knowingly and willfully transport, and attempt to transport monetary instruments and funds from a place in the United States to and through a place outside the United States by performing the following activities, among others:

1. Causing the transportation of Bank of Beverly Hills cashier's check # 85810 in the amount of $9,500,000 from California to Switzerland on or about February 17, 1987; and

2. Causing the transportation of $9,500,000 from Switzerland to Luxembourg on or about October 14, 1987; and

3. Causing the transportation of $8,500,000 from Luxembourg to Liechtenstein on or about November 16, 1987; and

4. Causing the transportation of approximately $4,000,000 in cash from Liechtenstein to Switzerland on or about November 16, 1987;knowing that the monetary instruments and funds involved in the transportation represented the proceeds of some form of unlawful activity and knowing that the transportation was designed in whole or in part to conceal and disguise the nature, location, source, ownership, and control of the proceeds of the specified unlawful activity.

Geronimo36
10-20-2009, 10:30 AM
Then you have this little piece of info....

http://openjurist.org/955/f2d/479
required by § 848(b), Lanier, Kramer and Fischer were each sentenced to a mandatory term of life imprisonment without possibility of parole. Pursuant to §§ 846 and 841(a)(1), Lanier and Kramer were sentenced concurrently to forty years imprisonment, Fischer was sentenced concurrently to thirty-five years imprisonment, and Bell was sentenced to twenty-five years imprisonment. Lanier was also sentenced to serve five years for the violation of § 371, to run consecutively to his sentence under §§ 846 and 841(a)(1). In addition, forfeiture judgments were entered against Lanier and Kramer in the amount of $60,000,000 each and against Fischer in the amount of $30,000,000. Appellants raise numerous challenges to their convictions. We find their arguments unpersuasive and affirm in all respects

Geronimo36
10-20-2009, 10:34 AM
POST OF THE DAY!!!! :rofl::rofl:

"The seventh transaction occurred in November 1986. The appellants imported a "bargeload" of approximately 130,000 pounds of marijuana to San Francisco. "

phragle
10-20-2009, 11:02 AM
POST OF THE DAY!!!! :rofl::rofl:

"The seventh transaction occurred in November 1986. The appellants imported a "bargeload" of approximately 130,000 pounds of marijuana to San Francisco. "


wouldn't it have been easier to just go to mendicino and pick it?

DAREDEVIL
10-20-2009, 11:30 AM
POST OF THE DAY!!!! :rofl::rofl:

"The seventh transaction occurred in November 1986. The appellants imported a "bargeload" of approximately 130,000 pounds of marijuana to San Francisco. "

Damn,,,looks like they needed some over there bad !!!!:sifone:

Geronimo36
10-20-2009, 11:42 AM
Apache's were to small....they may have worked in the beginning but he quickly upgraded to barges and tankers..... :rofl::rofl:

glassdave
10-20-2009, 11:44 AM
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell, no!"

LMAO :D . . . . Belushi . . . genius. . . .

Geronimo36
10-20-2009, 11:46 AM
Damn,,,looks like they needed some over there bad !!!!:sifone:

Dorito's stock was in the the crapper and all the stoners were getting their work done so they sent a barge load into San Fran, rush delivery, towed by 4 Apaches!:rofl:

Geronimo36
10-20-2009, 11:53 AM
This thread deseves the company of the Guiness guys!
3DPKf7y1F-Q

cashbrain
10-22-2009, 09:16 AM
Ben was is in solitary confinement for 60 days as the Govt wanted him to plea bargain..he wouldn't bend and they threw in the murder of Aronow.
That is why he pleaded"no contest"..he had no choice.Ben's conviction stemmed from money laundering thru Lichtenstein and circumvented to the Bicycle Club.
The real murderer is Bobby Young that recently died in prison on another drug charge.He exonerated Ben...

OldSchool
10-22-2009, 09:27 AM
Ben was is in solitary confinement for 60 days as the Govt wanted him to plea bargain..he wouldn't bend and they threw in the murder of Aronow.
That is why he pleaded"no contest"..he had no choice.Ben's conviction stemmed from money laundering thru Lichtenstein and circumvented to the Bicycle Club.
The real murderer is Bobby Young that recently died in prison on another drug charge.He exonerated Ben...


Thanks so much for the valuble "insider" info Jack. :rofl:


....and welcome back for your second chance. Make sure that you're on your best behavior. ;)

Geronimo36
10-22-2009, 09:43 AM
Don't forget about the importing an ungodly amount of weed which comes with a mandantory life-time imprisonment..... To me, the money laundering was after the fact and was the icing on the cake... The money is a direct result of the drugs (gotta hide your drug money and clean it somehow)......then throw in the "nudge" by the government if you want...

solitary confinement, sure...they wanted info....righfully so...he had it, they knew it...he's just not a rat, I'll give him that!!

I dunno guys, I don't see any motivation for the court to over turn the ruling as it was already reaffirmed/appealed once according to the public record.

I believe everyone in life deserves a second chance but at some point you need to draw the line.... Maybe if I was able to talk to Ben directly, like a select few have, I would feel differently but all the public records of the sentences/convictions, it's just too extreme......

Were talking 500K lbs. of weed (130K lbs on a barge to san fran), $60M in USD (in 1987 terms) and possible association of a murder.... Did he do the deed, I dunno, I tend to think no, may have even been the government....but for all intensive purposes he has a pretty extreme wrap sheet in my eyes. :(

Geronimo36
10-22-2009, 10:10 AM
What's interesting about this whole saga is how not too long ago, on the other side, some people posting in this thread, had equal and opposite views of this whole debacle.....

I'm getting tired of all the BS on these boards! :(

cashbrain
10-22-2009, 10:51 AM
Alot of the guys that were moving pot back then have been out of jail for a long time.Billy Elswick moved easily as much as Ben...and he has been out for a while now.
Ben wasn't even close to the biggest guys..just the most notorious.
In comparison to the 'Cocaine Cowboys", Ben was small potatoes.

Geronimo36
10-22-2009, 11:02 AM
I hear ya Jack but I don't condone it and it doesn't make it ok.... Live by the sword, die by the sword.

I'm done with thist stuff, I don't really care if he stays in or gets out! :)

cashbrain
10-22-2009, 11:03 AM
I completely agree... I don't condone drug use..period.
Just trying to put it in perspective..it was a product of the times.

DAREDEVIL
10-22-2009, 11:08 AM
..it was a product of the times.[/QUOTE]

100 % agree, and if there where no buyers there would of been no seller's !!!!!!

Geronimo36
10-22-2009, 11:18 AM
I guess we have a lot of stoners on the board....must be a lot of subscribers to high-times! lol

I gave that chit up 15 years ago "dude"! ;)
UmjXY1BDMEA
4ozk7fnKilU

DAREDEVIL
10-22-2009, 12:38 PM
I never started !!!!!

DAREDEVIL
10-22-2009, 12:51 PM
This one here is good too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPd4FmlpVxI



:rofl:

xlr8by
10-22-2009, 03:54 PM
I am not going to comment on if he should still be in jail or not, that is an issue for the courts to handle. Has Ben done any interviews since he has been in jail? I do not recall seeing one, but this thread got me wondering about a couple questions I am sure some people would ask. Like what Ben's take on the sport today is? Also, what he thinks of the technology advances that have taken place in the last 20years? If he ever thought Apache's would have the cult following that they do today? Etc. Etc.

DollaBill
10-22-2009, 04:41 PM
Stinson's got his cell(ular) number. Just call him and ask him:sifone:

Your welcome brother:rofl:

TCEd
10-22-2009, 06:16 PM
Anyone on this site actually know him ?
and
defend him ?
ed

DAREDEVIL
10-22-2009, 06:28 PM
There are a couple that really know,,or knew him !!!!

At least 5 on here that i know they do .:)

DollaBill
10-22-2009, 06:58 PM
There are memebrs with many connections on here.

glassdave
10-22-2009, 08:43 PM
I never started !!!!!

you mean your like that on your own? :eek: :sifone: . . . . :D :D

cashbrain
10-22-2009, 09:17 PM
I am not going to comment on if he should still be in jail or not, that is an issue for the courts to handle. Has Ben done any interviews since he has been in jail? I do not recall seeing one, but this thread got me wondering about a couple questions I am sure some people would ask. Like what Ben's take on the sport today is? Also, what he thinks of the technology advances that have taken place in the last 20years? If he ever thought Apache's would have the cult following that they do today? Etc. Etc.

He thinks that Reggie having his own boat biz is funny.. and that Reggie(back then) was just a drag racer.
Ben loves the big rigs with the pickup beds and is very well aware of the legend and what Apache was and still is today.
He is very smart,very sharp, and has high aspirations if he gets out. I am absolutely convinced that if he got out today,he would be a force to be reckoned with. The entire situaton is unfortunate, but we all make decisions that we regret.
Ben is a very unique person and fascinating to talk to. I can honestly say that I genuinely enjoyed talking to him.

DAREDEVIL
10-22-2009, 10:12 PM
you mean your like that on your own? :eek: :sifone: . . . . :D :D

U know ,,,when i was a little boy ,,my MOM dropped me in a bathtub full of white powder,,,,and since ever then ,,i am SPECIAL !!!:sifone::rofl::biggrinjester::USA::willy_nilly:

Expensive Date
10-23-2009, 12:12 AM
For what its worth I used to be on the "other side" of the drug war.This is going to sound liberal and I am not but you are not going to stop this.There is to much money involved.Spend the money on education and treatment centers instead of jails.A 12 year old kid making a g a day is not scared of jail and even if he is locked up there are two more behind him to take his place.Buy and busts were a lot of fun though but had little effect but they were really fun.
As for taking part in killing Don thats another story.

DAREDEVIL
10-23-2009, 12:18 AM
For what its worth I used to be on the "other side" of the drug war.This is going to sound liberal and I am not but you are not going to stop this.There is to much money involved.Spend the money on education and treatment centers instead of jails.A 12 year old kid making a g a day is not scared of jail and even if he is locked up there are two more behind him to take his place.Buy and busts were a lot of fun though but had little effect but they were really fun.
As for taking part in killing Don thats another story.

I agree !!!!!!

and the Don part has yet to be proven !!!!

Offshoredrillin
10-23-2009, 01:04 AM
He thinks that Reggie having his own boat biz is funny.. and that Reggie(back then) was just a drag racer.
Ben loves the big rigs with the pickup beds and is very well aware of the legend and what Apache was and still is today.
He is very smart,very sharp, and has high aspirations if he gets out. I am absolutely convinced that if he got out today,he would be a force to be reckoned with. The entire situaton is unfortunate, but we all make decisions that we regret.
Ben is a very unique person and fascinating to talk to. I can honestly say that I genuinely enjoyed talking to him.
hmmm no offense meant, but when did money laundering and smuggling drugs become "unfortunate" instead of illegal.

cashbrain
10-23-2009, 07:47 AM
hmmm no offense meant, but when did money laundering and smuggling drugs become "unfortunate" instead of illegal.

Aren't they both?

Chris
10-23-2009, 08:32 AM
I can stop America's drug war in one week. Take every bit of confiscated dope in every police locker in the country, lace it with poison and put it back in circulation. Obviously you'd want to do the humanitarian thing and let them know well in advance. One way or another, the problem is solved quickly and completely.

Expensive Date
10-23-2009, 08:34 AM
I can stop America's drug war in one week. Take every bit of confiscated dope in every police locker in the country, lace it with poison and put it back in circulation. Obviously you'd want to do the humanitarian thing and let them know well in advance. One way or another, the problem is solved quickly and completely.


That would work too.

DAREDEVIL
10-23-2009, 09:44 AM
Just a tought,,,how about take it and sell it legal thru the gov. so finally they make some money and don't need to rob us ?!!!!

The dealers will be put out of business and the dopers will die anyway's ??!

Chris
10-23-2009, 09:58 AM
It's a little tough putting in a productive 40+ hour work week, then coaching your daughter's soccer team in the evening, then camping with your son's scout troop on the weekend when you're mainlining heroin or snorting an 8 ball a day.

We need more straight, contributing people, not fewer.

DAREDEVIL
10-23-2009, 10:29 AM
It's a little tough putting in a productive 40+ hour work week, then coaching your daughter's soccer team in the evening, then camping with your son's scout troop on the weekend when you're mainlining heroin or snorting an 8 ball a day.

We need more straight, contributing people, not fewer.

I agree,,,but u will not change the world or stupid habits of human nature by killing stupid people.
1 is gone ,,,2 show up !!!!!!!

Make money for the country,,stick part of it in research and healthcare to help people get away from this !!!!!!!!

The US goverment whants to help every other country in this freakin world,,,but they can't even help the USA themselfs !!!!!!:confused:

Geronimo36
10-23-2009, 10:30 AM
For what its worth I used to be on the "other side" of the drug war.This is going to sound liberal and I am not but you are not going to stop this.There is to much money involved.Spend the money on education and treatment centers instead of jails.A 12 year old kid making a g a day is not scared of jail and even if he is locked up there are two more behind him to take his place.Buy and busts were a lot of fun though but had little effect but they were really fun.
As for taking part in killing Don thats another story.

What if the death penalty was enforced more often and punishment for crimes was more harsh, would we actually see less crime???

Like Bernie Madoff....he's going to the country club...what if he knew his hands could literally get cut off if he was caught or maybe chop his dik off? Might have made him think twice about it or do you think he would have done it anyway?

Chris
10-23-2009, 11:56 AM
The death penalty works. They never do it again.

Legal drugs would bury us. You could never afford the health care and safety costs. The more they had, the more they'd use- that's the nature of addictive drugs. And how will they pay for them? Using more means they'll work less.

Can you imagine a world full of cheap, legal cocaine?

Geronimo36
10-23-2009, 12:20 PM
Speaking of Drugs.....
http://wcbstv.com/topstories/holder.mexican.drug.2.1264490.html

Geronimo36
10-23-2009, 12:22 PM
http://wcbstv.com/video/?id=19839@cbslocal.dayport.com

phragle
10-23-2009, 01:07 PM
The death penalty works. They never do it again.

Legal drugs would bury us. You could never afford the health care and safety costs. The more they had, the more they'd use- that's the nature of addictive drugs. And how will they pay for them? Using more means they'll work less.

Can you imagine a world full of cheap, legal cocaine?


it would help not only Darwin, but the unemployment rate as people od'd and died

Coolerman
10-23-2009, 05:51 PM
no way that legalizing drugs to tax them would help the country. The costs of healthcare problems stemming from drug problems would outweight the taxation.

DAREDEVIL
10-23-2009, 05:55 PM
no way that legalizing drugs to tax them would help the country. The costs of healthcare problems stemming from drug problems would outweight the taxation.

U all got me wrong,,a little ,,,who said only the taxation,,,,the money the drugs sell for !!!!!!!

They where free to the goverment,,the money that was free paid for the bust ,,so now sell it legal and use that money for the rest of this country !!!!!:USA:

phragle
10-23-2009, 06:26 PM
no way that legalizing drugs to tax them would help the country. The costs of healthcare problems stemming from drug problems would outweight the taxation.

WRONG ANSWER X true a person with a major drug problem would have short term increased healthcare cost, they will quickly eliminate themselves from the system, they are going to die young and it will be cheaper than the long term costs of regular old people...

Expensive Date
10-23-2009, 06:34 PM
Death penalty that I support for certain crimes is never going to be used in thois country fro drug dealing.Look how long it took them to fry Bundy.Don't use drugs never did just posted from experience.

Chris
10-23-2009, 11:49 PM
If you're tuned up all day, where are you going to get the money to live on and support your family, much less buy dope?

DAREDEVIL
10-24-2009, 12:17 AM
If you're tuned up all day, where are you going to get the money to live on and support your family, much less buy dope?

How do u think they do it now with it being ilegal ????

cashbrain
10-24-2009, 12:21 AM
Thought this thread was about Ben?

DAREDEVIL
10-24-2009, 01:04 AM
Thought this thread was about Ben?

Well yeah,,,just trying to figure out how we get him out !!!!!!:leaving:

Expensive Date
10-24-2009, 01:05 AM
Thought this thread was about Ben?

When we heard that Ben insulted Reggie we decide to move on.:26:

phragle
10-24-2009, 02:48 AM
I thought ben was using liberty as a front to buy fountain and make reggie his puppet on the outside....

MikeyFIN
10-24-2009, 03:42 AM
Damn,,,looks like they needed some over there bad !!!!:sifone:

thatīs California to You...
My friend had a Junkyard in SanBerdoo and after 10yrs of running it he called it quits...just too much drug addicts there.

MikeyFIN
10-24-2009, 03:43 AM
If you're tuned up all day, where are you going to get the money to live on and support your family, much less buy dope?

Smiling all day long...:26:

Remember Bob Marley (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGEA03v1u2A)...:sifone:

Heerbs aree good for everythiiiing.... Hahaaa.

Elvis,Ray Charles and Willie Neson are/were junkies too...
Picasso,Salvador Dali also....nothing new in the artistic circles.

So back in the day I see the point of thinking weed is innocent.


FYI. Iīm against drugs, even steroids.

MikeyFIN
10-24-2009, 03:52 AM
POST OF THE DAY!!!! :rofl::rofl:

"The seventh transaction occurred in November 1986. The appellants imported a "bargeload" of approximately 130,000 pounds of marijuana to San Francisco. "

Happens all the time..

Back in the Day Ben wasnīt even close to being the largest weed importer in US.
There was this bunch of Californians who had shipping vessels for it that eventually got cought and got the top notches.
He was up there but not one of the top dogs.

MikeyFIN
10-24-2009, 04:05 AM
Well yeah,,,just trying to figure out how we get him out !!!!!!:leaving:

I know a Surface rescue pilot...:biggrinjester:

MikeyFIN
10-24-2009, 04:08 AM
Thanks so much for the valuble "insider" info Jack. :rofl:


....and welcome back for your second chance. Make sure that you're on your best behavior. ;)

and Stay of the stuff that makes you act bad... :lurk5::rofl:

fund razor
10-24-2009, 08:13 AM
Thought this thread was about Ben?

Well, it started out as Sean asking what ever happened to a website. :)

Geronimo36
10-24-2009, 08:22 AM
Thought this thread was about Ben?

Believe it or not, it still is!!! ;)

Geronimo36
10-24-2009, 08:29 AM
Shall I go back to OSO and find the threads where the same folks said Ben deserves to be in jail????:lurk5:

Just because we're more liberal NOW about importation of Marijuana, the penalties are what they were...and laundering money, running a criminal enterprise and attempted escape from jail is still illegal...but I guess the likes of Wallstreet has people thinking that's ok too.... Everything to make a buck it seems....:(

It amazes me how people justify ILLEGAL activities and how they're "not so bad" or "crime of the time". Meanwhile the majority of us work hard for our money LEGALLY... The former say's a lot about a persons character in my opinion..... :leaving:

Geronimo36
10-24-2009, 08:30 AM
Happens all the time...

Yup, La Familia do it all the time and they just got busted... Largest organized drug cartel in history.... Off to the pokey they go!!:seeya:

Chris
10-24-2009, 08:42 AM
How do u think they do it now with it being ilegal ????

They jack convenience stores and beat/rob weaker people like kids and elderly. They break car windows and steal your stuff. They drag their families down with them, soaking from relatives that can't bear to see their spouses/children suffer.

Let's work on getting better educations for our children in safer schools. Let's work on helping people break from addictive lifestyles. Let's make the neighborhoods a safer place. Let's get as many people theat can lead productive lives into good jobs. Send me all the people that want to import and sell this $hit and I'll provide you with a very impressive stack of neatly piled corpses.

Ratickle
10-24-2009, 09:07 AM
They jack convenience stores and beat/rob weaker people like kids and elderly. They break car windows and steal your stuff. They drag their families down with them, soaking from relatives that can't bear to see their spouses/children suffer.

Let's work on getting better educations for our children in safer schools. Let's work on helping people break from addictive lifestyles. Let's make the neighborhoods a safer place. Let's get as many people theat can lead productive lives into good jobs. Send me all the people that want to import and sell this $hit and I'll provide you with a very impressive stack of neatly piled corpses.

Almost 70% of kids who have used illegal drugs 3 times or more a year have had violent behavior incidents within that same year. (A 3 year study). Meth the worst of course.


http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/2k6/youthViolence/youthViolence.htm

fund razor
10-24-2009, 09:10 AM
They jack convenience stores and beat/rob weaker people like kids and elderly. They break car windows and steal your stuff. They drag their families down with them, soaking from relatives that can't bear to see their spouses/children suffer.

Let's work on getting better educations for our children in safer schools. Let's work on helping people break from addictive lifestyles. Let's make the neighborhoods a safer place. Let's get as many people theat can lead productive lives into good jobs. Send me all the people that want to import and sell this $hit and I'll provide you with a very impressive stack of neatly piled corpses.

Instant classic post.

Smarty
10-24-2009, 09:22 AM
[QUOTE=Chris;350312]They jack convenience stores and beat/rob weaker people like kids and elderly. They break car windows and steal your stuff. They drag their families down with them, soaking from relatives that can't bear to see their spouses/children suffer.

Chris,

You hit it on the head with that post above. Drugs cost money, addicts need and like to get high, addicts can't hold a job very well, so where does this money come from? The answer is posted above. The emotional pain that the addicts cause family, friends, loved ones can not be measured in dollars.

Legalized heroin or coke/crack, never, that would be just f*cking stupid! Weed maybe, today's weed seems to be too high powered/potent. Keep in mind DUI or BUI still applies, drugs and or alcohol can lead to a conviction for driving under the influence, so the argument of having all these drugged-out people on the road is not totally accurate.

There are many long-term addicts out there, meaning addicts that have been around for twenty plus years, breaking the cycle of addiction is the key. Church, NA, AA, and counseling seems to be effective for some. The world would be a much better place when and if addicts get clean. A light goes on in inside the addict/alocoholic's head/mind, and until that light does, he or she will live in darkness/addiction. That light is the desire to change, regardless of how unfamilar and difficult it may be for the alcoholic/addict. When the pain is great enough that is when the addict/alcoholic is ripe for change. Sometimes that light does not get to go off, then death or jail is the next consequence.

Let's get back to the Ben Kramer saga, it is always interesting to hear the opinions of that case, and theory, and outcome.

PS -- if anyone on this board that has a loved one, friend, or whoever, that needs help for addiction, e-mail me, and I can help guide/refer you and the addict/alcoholic that wants help to the right places for treatment, even if they do not have healthcare. I don't mind helping people who actually want help (not court ordered, bucking the system help).

Stephen

cashbrain
10-24-2009, 09:44 AM
Happens all the time..

Back in the Day Ben wasnīt even close to being the largest weed importer in US.
There was this bunch of Californians who had shipping vessels for it that eventually got cought and got the top notches.
He was up there but not one of the top dogs.

So many major guys smuggling Pot back then..and then coke hit and the game was ratched up x 10. Willie Falcon and Sal Maglutta..major players.

What is interesting though,is that alot of the Miami Vice episodes were written about Ben. One in particular was the one where the vans were waiting for the pot from the larger ship and the tenders were bringing it ashore.
So much happened on 188th also..even with Aronow.
Billy Elswick brought in tons thru New Orleans.Was arrested in Spain and extradited to the US. I spent a weekend with him when I bought Longshot and the stories were just incredible..still love story about his dog with a gold tooth !

DAREDEVIL
10-24-2009, 09:47 AM
[QUOTE=Chris;350312]They jack convenience stores and beat/rob weaker people like kids and elderly. They break car windows and steal your stuff. They drag their families down with them, soaking from relatives that can't bear to see their spouses/children suffer.

Chris,

You hit it on the head with that post above. Drugs cost money, addicts need and like to get high, addicts can't hold a job very well, so where does this money come from? The answer is posted above. The emotional pain that the addicts cause family, friends, loved ones can not be measured in dollars.

Legalized heroin or coke/crack, never, that would be just f*cking stupid! Weed maybe, today's weed seems to be too high powered/potent. Keep in mind DUI or BUI still applies, drugs and or alcohol can lead to a conviction for driving under the influence, so the argument of having all these drugged-out people on the road is not totally accurate.

There are many long-term addicts out there, meaning addicts that have been around for twenty plus years, breaking the cycle of addiction is the key. Church, NA, AA, and counseling seems to be effective for some. The world would be a much better place when and if addicts get clean. A light goes on in inside the addict/alocoholic's head/mind, and until that light does, he or she will live in darkness/addiction. That light is the desire to change, regardless of how unfamilar and difficult it may be for the alcoholic/addict. When the pain is great enough that is when the addict/alcoholic is ripe for change. Sometimes that light does not get to go off, then death or jail is the next consequence.

Let's get back to the Ben Kramer saga, it is always interesting to hear the opinions of that case, and theory, and outcome.

PS -- if anyone on this board that has a loved one, friend, or whoever, that needs help for addiction, e-mail me, and I can help guide/refer you and the addict/alcoholic that wants help to the right places for treatment, even if they do not have healthcare. I don't mind helping people who actually want help (not court ordered, bucking the system help).

Stephen

Ok,,,since this thread is about Ben,,i thought we are talking about weed,,,not about crack or coke.:confused:

I agree on the rest.

Smarty
10-24-2009, 10:01 AM
[QUOTE=Smarty;350351]

Ok,,,since this thread is about Ben,,i thought we are talking about weed,,,not about crack or coke.:confused:

I agree on the rest.

A drug is a drug, addiction does not discriminate. I was responding primarily to Chris's post, which I thought was excellent.

To address the weed issue you brought up: Smuggling coke, weed, heroin, doesn't matter what the drug is, it is still a crime.

DAREDEVIL
10-24-2009, 10:20 AM
[QUOTE=DAREDEVIL;350378]

A drug is a drug, addiction does not discriminate. I was responding primarily to Chris's post, which I thought was excellent.

To address the weed issue you brought up: Smuggling coke, weed, heroin, doesn't matter what the drug is, it is still a crime.

I agree,,,what i ment is legalise it (the weed) and sell it thru the goverment,,use that money and help the USA !!!!!!

The goverment is burning the weed and that costs money ,,,how stupid is that.

Why is america 50 years behind with everything ???
Why do americans don't use there common sence ???
Why do we have more chiefs then indians???

To many questions ,,so little answers.:USA:

Chris
10-24-2009, 10:26 AM
Actually, the thread was about releasing a top-echelon illegal drug importer, money launderer and convicted murderer from prison via a reduction in his mandatory life sentence.

The question yet answered? Why?

What has Ben Kramer done to deserve this act of charity? Has there been some expression of remorse? An act of contrition? Some life-changing experience that caused him to find a purpose in life that's led him to benefit his fallow man, if only in the confines of the prison?

Ben was no industry icon. All he did was finance a project he thought was "cool". He owned a toy. He showed up on race day and turned the wheel, then stuck around for the party. Bobby dragged more than a few guys that could foot the bill around a race course- quite successfully. Ben was just one.

cashbrain
10-24-2009, 10:37 AM
[QUOTE=DAREDEVIL;350378]


To address the weed issue you brought up: Smuggling coke, weed, heroin, doesn't matter what the drug is, it is still a crime.

I don't think that is in contention...

cashbrain
10-24-2009, 10:40 AM
Actually, the thread was about releasing a top-echelon illegal drug importer, money launderer and convicted murderer from prison via a reduction in his mandatory life sentence.

The question yet answered? Why?

What has Ben Kramer done to deserve this act of charity? Has there been some expression of remorse? An act of contrition? Some life-changing experience that caused him to find a purpose in life that's led him to benefit his fallow man, if only in the confines of the prison?

Ben was no industry icon. All he did was finance a project he thought was "cool". He owned a toy. He showed up on race day and turned the wheel, then stuck around for the party. Bobby dragged more than a few guys that could foot the bill around a race course- quite successfully. Ben was just one.

Bobby Young murdered Aronow and he was released from prison and then went back in for an unrelated drug possession charge,where he died.

Chris
10-24-2009, 10:46 AM
I agree,,,what i ment is legalise it (the weed) and sell it thru the goverment,,use that money and help the USA !!!!!!

The goverment is burning the weed and that costs money ,,,how stupid is that.

:


One more time.

Drugs provide zero positive social benefit. (social, like societal, not an improvement to your social life).

Drugs are incontrovertably linked to the commission of both violent and non-violent crime.

Drugs ruin lives. They remove people from their reality. People in these positions need to remain in their reality and endeavor to remove themselves from whatever morass they're trapped in and find a life, not hide from one.

People steal and kill to get the money for drugs. That's bad for the rest of us.

Parents that use drugs typically doom their children to a life of drug use. And the cycle perpetuates.

The money collected wouldn't cover the postage on the government aid checks we'd be sending out to these people sitting around stoned all day. Drugs are a one-trick pony. They don't make you smarter. They don't make you more attractive. They make you feel better. And they make you feel better artificially. They stimulate the same chemical processes that your body naturally experiences from actual, real-world positive experiences. Like hitting a home run, crafting a sculpture, inventing a beneficial device and so on. What drugs do is give you that feeling without the effort. And when they wear off, you're left with a $hitty life where you've accomplished nothing. So then you have to pay for that experience you just had by feeling poorly- and having to face the fact that you really haven't done anything. So to make it go away, you get high again. But unless you stay high, that mean old reality keeps coming back. And the high becomes your normal and you need that warm feeling back again, so you move up the ladder to something else. Or you realize that one chemical is working, so there must be others that work too.

You want to be high? Take some dying kids and their parents for a boat ride next Saturday. Accomplish something. Sell that raceboat that's all about nothing other than your own personal pleasure and benefits no one other than yourself and get something that you can fit a half-dozen people in to. Then enjoy the smile you put on the face of a little girl that's lived her entire life with a massive birth defect, or a teenage by that's known he's going to die for a few years now, but also knows it's going to take a number of very painful years before the end comes. or the father that helps you lift that limp body into your boat that, despite being a man, knows he helpless to do anything for his own child.
Get high on that.

Chris
10-24-2009, 10:47 AM
Bobby Young murdered Aronow and he was released from prison and then went back in for an unrelated drug possession charge,where he died.

Benjamin Barry Kramer was convicted and incarcerated for the crime after pleading no contest to the charge. The rest is unimportant.

cashbrain
10-24-2009, 10:50 AM
Ben was not incarcerated for the murder..he was incarcerated for money laundering. Any of the other charges came later...and for a specific reason.

Comanche3Six
10-24-2009, 10:56 AM
Greg Smith, Detective (Retired), Metro-Dade Police Department, Miami, Florida.
Lead investigator in the Aronow Case. Call him with your questions.

Chris
10-24-2009, 10:58 AM
Ben is presently incarcerated for the murder. It's a matter of public record.

MikeyFIN
10-24-2009, 11:00 AM
Yup, La Familia do it all the time and they just got busted... Largest organized drug cartel in history.... Off to the pokey they go!!:seeya:


Known is the Key word..
The Balkans as we speak control the English Spain and French drug cartels with harder than military discipline.

And some Drug runners are also backed by some regimes nowadays...
Thenagain some fight back.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4TCqcWkDM0

cashbrain
10-24-2009, 11:01 AM
Have you read his case? Ben was NOT arrested or incarcerated for Aronow's murder. Bobby Young was.

Chris
10-24-2009, 11:07 AM
Jack- this is a yes or no question...

Was Ben Kramer found guilty for the murder of Don Aronow?

cashbrain
10-24-2009, 11:13 AM
Ben pleaded"no contest", so the answer is no.
Again, Bobby Young shot Aronow...and was arrested,convicted for the murder.
Ben was arrested for importing Marijuana and money laundering moving money thru Lichtenstein to the Bicycle Club in LA.

You seem to think that the entire case was about Aronow's murder and the No contest plea was not charged until Ben was in jail for almost 2 years.
I have read the case file...many times and sat with Ben. What people make summaries about is not substanitive.

Chris
10-24-2009, 11:26 AM
Jack- you are wrong.

Ben plead no contest, was found guilty and sentenced. Back up a few pages and read about nolo pleas.

Don't confuse "convicted for the murder of..." and "...shot DA". Ben was convicted of the murder. In Florida, as in most states, paying another to murder someone is the exact same thing a shooting them yourself.

Ben Kramer chose to not dispute the facts presented in evidence that he was complicit in the execution murder of Don Aronow. He stood before a judge and openly declared "I do not dispute the facts presented to this court regarding my involvement in the murder of Don Aronow". He was subsequently found guilty and convicted.

cashbrain
10-24-2009, 11:27 AM
Can you tell me why Ben would want to kill Aronow?

cashbrain
10-24-2009, 11:33 AM
Jack- you are wrong.

Ben plead no contest, was found guilty and sentenced. Back up a few pages and read about nolo pleas.

Don't confuse "convicted for the murder of..." and "...shot DA". Ben was convicted of the murder. In Florida, as in most states, paying another to murder someone is the exact same thing a shooting them yourself.

Ben Kramer chose to not dispute the facts presented in evidence that he was complicit in the execution murder of Don Aronow. He stood before a judge and openly declared "I do not dispute the facts presented to this court regarding my involvement in the murder of Don Aronow". He was subsequently found guilty and convicted.

He had no choice....

Smarty
10-24-2009, 11:33 AM
Go to Westlaw (it costs $$$) and look up the disposition of case. I can help you with that, I will no longer respresent criminals..

The plea is one thing, the indictment is really what he is accused of, and Ben Kramer and his attorney(s) have all the discovery (the evidence that the Prosecutor has available), if you had access to the discovery that would really fill in the blanks and tell whole side of the story/history from the State's perspective.

Will anyone know the whole story, never, just Ben Kramer, God, and the people he did business with regarding the the narcotic transactions. Alot of good and interesting posts in this thread, it seems to have touched a nerve.

TCEd
10-24-2009, 11:47 AM
I consider Kramer an evil person that uses to his advantage anyone he's in contact with. I also find it odd that people attempt to rationalize his crimes by comparing them to other convicts/ex-convicts.
Drugs kill. Kramer probably is the root cause of many deaths other than Aranow.

Offshoredrillin
10-24-2009, 11:50 AM
He had no choice....
sure he did, he could have stuck by his story and had a clear conscience. I would never admit or plead to something I didnt do.

cashbrain
10-24-2009, 11:52 AM
He didn't have a choice and he didn't admit to anything...

Smarty
10-24-2009, 11:57 AM
He didn't have a choice and he didn't admit to anything...

He had a choice, he entered into his plea, freely and voluntarily, not under duress or coercion, he was not under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and did so with the consent and advice of his attorney. Those words, or nearly identical words would be on the record at sentencing, that is standard stuff. I must disagree, he had a choice, goto trial or take the plea. All criminal cases fall into this slot, he is not an exception.

MikeyFIN
10-24-2009, 12:15 PM
Can you tell me why Ben would want to kill Aronow?

A million dollars under the table Don got and never gave back when the deal went south of USA Racing Team.
Actually moraly he had no need to.
He sold the company which got into trouble because of BEN HIMSELF and Don offered to buy back at discount like so many times before.
Ben just couldnīt take it.

Geronimo36
10-24-2009, 12:37 PM
According to what I've found, Ben was indited for smugglling marijuana and due to the amount (500K lbs) it carried a mandantory life-sentence without the possibility for parole. In addition was tried and convicted of money laundering ($60M) which carried a 20 yr sentence and plead no-contest to the association of Don's murder.

Someone correct me if I have it all wrong?

And even if I did have the opportunity to talk to Ben himself, I'm sure he would paint a rosey picture....he has too....I wouldn't expect any different.

Like was said above, we'll never know the whole story and the whole truth about Don's murder...

phragle
10-24-2009, 12:53 PM
the simple fact here is that is incredibly easy to romanticize the past. Euphoric recall.

Geronimo36
10-24-2009, 01:00 PM
Fast forward in to the present..... Society has become more liberal in the setencing for marijuana smuggling so a lot of guys previously convicted are getting a "get out of jail free card" (thank the liberals for this).... Time has been served on the the money laundering charges (all stemmed from the drugs) and it sounds like he's trying to get the no-contest charges appealed/dismissed...

That's what I understand, did I miss anything?

VtSteve
10-24-2009, 01:44 PM
Jack- you are wrong.

Ben plead no contest, was found guilty and sentenced. Back up a few pages and read about nolo pleas.

Don't confuse "convicted for the murder of..." and "...shot DA". Ben was convicted of the murder. In Florida, as in most states, paying another to murder someone is the exact same thing a shooting them yourself.

Ben Kramer chose to not dispute the facts presented in evidence that he was complicit in the execution murder of Don Aronow. He stood before a judge and openly declared "I do not dispute the facts presented to this court regarding my involvement in the murder of Don Aronow". He was subsequently found guilty and convicted.

He sounds like quite a guy, probably misunderstood too.

I can't help but thinking what the repercussions would be in the boating world if he were released. My guess is, not favorable.

All he did was smuggle 500 thousand pounds of dope, set up an international organization for laundering the money, probably a few more nasty things, oh, and was instrumental in the murder of DA.

One has to wonder why the powerboat industry still has a stench to it in many circles. Freeing something like Ben Kramer would probably not help much.

MikeyFIN
10-24-2009, 01:49 PM
One has to wonder why the powerboat industry still has a stench to it in many circles. Freeing something like Ben Kramer would probably not help much.

Offtopic.

the boats themselves are obnoxius and not many women ( who in fact are the bosses in the house) do like powerboats for long.

Find me one that does and Iīm darn willing to propose for real.

DAREDEVIL
10-24-2009, 02:05 PM
One more time.

Drugs provide zero positive social benefit. (social, like societal, not an improvement to your social life).

Drugs are incontrovertably linked to the commission of both violent and non-violent crime.

Drugs ruin lives. They remove people from their reality. People in these positions need to remain in their reality and endeavor to remove themselves from whatever morass they're trapped in and find a life, not hide from one.

People steal and kill to get the money for drugs. That's bad for the rest of us.

Parents that use drugs typically doom their children to a life of drug use. And the cycle perpetuates.

The money collected wouldn't cover the postage on the government aid checks we'd be sending out to these people sitting around stoned all day. Drugs are a one-trick pony. They don't make you smarter. They don't make you more attractive. They make you feel better. And they make you feel better artificially. They stimulate the same chemical processes that your body naturally experiences from actual, real-world positive experiences. Like hitting a home run, crafting a sculpture, inventing a beneficial device and so on. What drugs do is give you that feeling without the effort. And when they wear off, you're left with a $hitty life where you've accomplished nothing. So then you have to pay for that experience you just had by feeling poorly- and having to face the fact that you really haven't done anything. So to make it go away, you get high again. But unless you stay high, that mean old reality keeps coming back. And the high becomes your normal and you need that warm feeling back again, so you move up the ladder to something else. Or you realize that one chemical is working, so there must be others that work too.

You want to be high? Take some dying kids and their parents for a boat ride next Saturday. Accomplish something. Sell that raceboat that's all about nothing other than your own personal pleasure and benefits no one other than yourself and get something that you can fit a half-dozen people in to. Then enjoy the smile you put on the face of a little girl that's lived her entire life with a massive birth defect, or a teenage by that's known he's going to die for a few years now, but also knows it's going to take a number of very painful years before the end comes. or the father that helps you lift that limp body into your boat that, despite being a man, knows he helpless to do anything for his own child.
Get high on that.

I don't get high,,,please don't miss read my post ,,i think it may be the way i write them ,,but i am not in to drugs at all !!!!!

Also ,,i have my heart in the right place and help sick and poor people all the time ,,,that is why i am not the richest either.
my brother was born in a wheelchair and i lived it all my life and still do.
Took all the wheelchair guys to country festivals in germany when i was there and hung out with them,,,took them to my bar's and party'd everything on me !!!!
Never asked for something back and enjoyed every bid of it...

So don't tell me what to do with my life ,,,,PLEASE



On the other hand,,,your posts and your avatar,,,i can see your full of hate and anger to every thing that u don't understand .

SORRY

:USA:

MikeyFIN
10-24-2009, 02:12 PM
Chris.
Scotty is all 100% heart and Genuine. Believe me and no drugs.
Not even coffee.
But Red Bull and Grey Goose yes at least one or two a year from now on ;)

Chris
10-24-2009, 02:41 PM
I was replying to Scott. If you look at the top of that post you'll see his comments quoted. How you find yourself in there, I don't know. I was responding to his continual advocacy of legalizing drugs- and using an economic argument to sell his position. I infer from his positions that drugs reperesent a victimless crime and that the magical solution is legalization.

You're goddamned right I despise the effects of drugs and those that profit from the pain and destruction they bring to our citizens. But that doesn't stem from any lack of understanding I may have. If you take a few minutes and actually read what I posted, you'll probably garner from what I wrote that I'm somewhat well-informed on the topic.

catastrophe
10-24-2009, 04:07 PM
"On the other hand,,,your posts and your avatar,,,i can see your full of hate and anger to every thing that u don't understand"

Thats not accurate. You wouldn't go anywhere near words like that if you spent a day with the gentleman.

If for arguments sake your position was accepted, there wouldn't be much hate and anger; from what I've witnessed there is very little the man doesn't understand.

MikeyFIN
10-24-2009, 04:11 PM
Seems it goes both ways...both get misunderstood.

Legalizing isnīt a solution in any way but thenagain.. the system would have more important issues to deal with and more manpower for it.

DAREDEVIL
10-24-2009, 04:12 PM
"On the other hand,,,your posts and your avatar,,,i can see your full of hate and anger to every thing that u don't understand"

Thats not accurate. You wouldn't go anywhere near words like that if you spent a day with the gentleman.

If for arguments sake your position was accepted, there wouldn't be much hate and anger; from what I've witnessed there is very little the man doesn't understand.

OK OK,,,lets just cool it and be friends again .:USA:



What was this thread about ???

Expensive Date
10-24-2009, 04:15 PM
Offtopic.

the boats themselves are obnoxius and not many women ( who in fact are the bosses in the house) do like powerboats for long.

Find me one that does and Iīm darn willing to propose for real.


Easy there in don't know about Finland but in America the men run the house.:biggrinjester:

DAREDEVIL
10-24-2009, 04:18 PM
Easy there in don't know about Finland but in America the men run the house.:biggrinjester:

HAHAHAHAHA RLMAO :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Expensive Date
10-24-2009, 04:23 PM
Just for the record my post a few pages ago was not for legalizing drugs.That I am against but if you put a bullet in every drug dealers head there would be more tomorrow.You need to stop the need it does seem to be happening though doesn't seem as bad as it was 20 years ago.
As for Ben really don't care what happens to this guy he is only idolized because he is in jail.If he was out imagine the threads then.

catastrophe
10-24-2009, 04:34 PM
OK OK,,,lets just cool it and be friends again .:USA:



What was this thread about ???

Peace

You are on the top of my list on who to call the next time I need my boat hauled taken to FLA.:):USA:

MikeyFIN
10-24-2009, 04:40 PM
Easy there in don't know about Finland but in America the men run around the house.:biggrinjester:

Corrected a lilī

Fact is the women outsmart us men allover...
You know thereīs a sucker born every minute :sifone:

Geronimo36
10-24-2009, 04:43 PM
.If he was out imagine the threads then.

Good point!!! then maybe some of the folks who support him can go into business with him and conduct themselves the same way he did, if they don't do it already....:leaving:

MikeyFIN
10-24-2009, 04:45 PM
you mean get busted ;)

Expensive Date
10-24-2009, 04:57 PM
Good point!!! then maybe some of the folks who support him can go into business with him and conduct themselves the same way he did, if they don't do it already....:leaving:

Ben and Freds Marine parts.

Smarty
10-24-2009, 05:00 PM
Ben and Freds Marine parts.

Now that is funny sh*t, good one!:sifone:

cashbrain
10-24-2009, 05:03 PM
He had a choice, he entered into his plea, freely and voluntarily, not under duress or coercion, he was not under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and did so with the consent and advice of his attorney. Those words, or nearly identical words would be on the record at sentencing, that is standard stuff. I must disagree, he had a choice, goto trial or take the plea. All criminal cases fall into this slot, he is not an exception.

Unfortunately,I don't agree with you... Ben had been in solitary confinement for 60 days and they threw this on the table or he would go back in and stay there.
While I don't condone Ben's actions and what he did, clearly he has not been treated the same as others in his position.
Keep in mind that RICO had just been enacted and it probably didn't help that he tried to escape.

The federal goverment wanted the others involved,rightfully so...Ben would not bend and that is why he is still there,why they threw the Aronow case against him.
What I also find interesting is so many people know so much about this and there are very few people who have sat and talked to him...I did and I have a better understanding of the situation.

No one answered my question..why would Ben have wanted Aronow dead?

Smarty
10-24-2009, 05:24 PM
[QUOTE=cashbrain;350702]Unfortunately,I don't agree with you... Ben had been in solitary confinement for 60 days and they threw this on the table or he would go back in and stay there.

The federal goverment wanted the others involved,rightfully so...Ben would not bend and that is why he is still there,why they threw the Aronow case against him.

What I also find interesting is so many people know so much about this and there are very few people who have sat and talked to him...I did and I have a better understanding of the situation.

No one answered my question..why would Ben have wanted Aronow dead?

I cannot answer that question, why Kramer wanted Aronow dead. I met Don Aronow when I was eight years old in 1974 and never saw or spoke with him again (irrelevant to this thread). I am not here to dispute the facts of the case, I just cannot accept that he did not have a choice, that is just inaccurate.

You may have an excellent recollection of the facts, but from a legal standpoint, he took a deal, and was not held at gunpoint to do so or the Judge would not have accepted the deal. That is how it works. I do this for a living, I have represented a murderer, drug dealer(s), and recently interviewed an accused child molester so I kinda know what I am talking when it comes to plea bargaining, and sentencing. I am a negoatiator, I get deals done.

Now as far as what Ben Kramer did, I was not there, I do not know all the facts, and I will not comment on what I do not know. If I take this new job I will have access to the dispostion of this case and all the recorded proceedings of the case, and I will get back to you then with what the legal research shows on what really happened procedurally, not factually.

I am getting out of the lawyer field and I am going back into sales (hopefully, I will know this week whether I start in this new career). At the end of each day I ask myself, "did I make the world a better place today, or did I help make the world a worse place to live?" That explains the change of profession (plus I will get paid more money).

I would love to talk with you in person and learn more about this case. I love Apache Powerboats, and whether Ben Kramer stays in jail or not, that will not affect my opinion of Apache boats.

PS - typically I am indifferent or apathetic when I see these threads, but it is raining here in NJ, not much sports on TV that i care for (Penn State just started), so here I am reading this thread today, and it has been entertaining. I am sure you guys will have six more pages of post before I get back online. I have date to get ready for so I gotta go!!

Offshoredrillin
10-24-2009, 06:32 PM
Unfortunately,I don't agree with you... Ben had been in solitary confinement for 60 days and they threw this on the table or he would go back in and stay there.
While I don't condone Ben's actions and what he did, clearly he has not been treated the same as others in his position.
Keep in mind that RICO had just been enacted and it probably didn't help that he tried to escape.

The federal goverment wanted the others involved,rightfully so...Ben would not bend and that is why he is still there,why they threw the Aronow case against him.
What I also find interesting is so many people know so much about this and there are very few people who have sat and talked to him...I did and I have a better understanding of the situation.

No one answered my question..why would Ben have wanted Aronow dead?

So you plead to not be by yourself? sorry doesnt work that way. if you didnt do it you didnt do it. If he was being treated unfairly then his attorney should have addressed that issue with the court. But, a criminal is a criminal. I don't feel sorry for any of them.

MikeyFIN
10-24-2009, 06:42 PM
well I have been in the thought that his attorney did in fact address the fact.

cashbrain
10-24-2009, 10:51 PM
If any of us spent 60 days in solitary confinement with the threat of it being the rest of your life, I'm pretty sure you would agree to almost anything.
He agreed,but, clearly there was no option.
We can sit here and make judgement calls all day,but, I was there and I can tell you..it isn't pretty. Ben was brought into the room in shackles. and was escorted to the bathroom.
It is a horrific way to live...far worse than any of us can imagine

Smarty
10-24-2009, 10:59 PM
If any of us spent 60 days in solitary confinement with the threat of it being the rest of your life, I'm pretty sure you would agree to almost anything.
He agreed,but, clearly there was no option.
We can sit here and make judgement calls all day,but, I was there and I can tell you..it isn't pretty. Ben was brought into the room in shackles. and was escorted to the bathroom.
It is a horrific way to live...far worse than any of us can imagine

You are absolutely correct, it is a terrible way to live (confinement). I hate going to the jails to interview the inmates. And I do understand and appreciate what you mean when you talk about the shackles and such. I have alot of gratitude for the blessings that God has bestowed upon me. I will pray for Ben Kramer, and I mean that; it is all I can do. May God have mercy on him.

DAREDEVIL
10-24-2009, 11:04 PM
You are absolutely correct, it is a terrible way to live (confinement). I hate going to the jails to interview the inmates. And I do understand and appreciate what you mean when you talk about the shackles and such. I have alot of gratitude for the blessings that God has bestowed upon me. I will pray for Ben Kramer, and I mean that; it is all I can do. May God have mercy on him.

AMEN !!!!

PS.: Smarty,,i think u would be the right attn to get him out !!!!!!
maybe cashbrain and u should talk private and see what is going on ?!

Smarty
10-24-2009, 11:20 PM
AMEN !!!!

PS.: Smarty,,i think u would be the right attn to get him out !!!!!!
maybe cashbrain and u should talk private and see what is going on ?!

I am not an appeals guy, but thank you for kind words. I am an in-person (face to face) in court attorney; not a paper work, not a motion or legal brief attorney, I hate that. I am glorified salesman with a license to practice law.

Getting back to help Ben Kramer, we all are redeemable in the eyes of God. I have to work on my on salvation first. I didn't mean to bring church to this this thread, but when I do help others it helps me feel good about what I do for a living. If I can help one addict or alcoholic change their ways, that is huge. Or, if I can help a drug dealer learn a trade, HVAC, electrical, or whatever, and become a productive member of society then that is even better. It is time to give back, service to others.

cashbrain
10-24-2009, 11:32 PM
You are absolutely correct, it is a terrible way to live (confinement). I hate going to the jails to interview the inmates. And I do understand and appreciate what you mean when you talk about the shackles and such. I have alot of gratitude for the blessings that God has bestowed upon me. I will pray for Ben Kramer, and I mean that; it is all I can do. May God have mercy on him.

Very poignant post...
Where Ben is incarcerated is where they put Timothy McVeigh to death.
It is an incredible experience just to go there. Other than Ben's immediate family, only Magnum Mark,Lucy, and myself are on his visitation list.
These men are treated like animals..when I was sitting with Ben, he pointed out some of the criminals that were there...a guy that was sitting behind us cut up three guys in a drug deal..it is very disturbing.

I am a believer that the Feds made Ben an example and that is why is still there...
others that have done far worse are free now, including Bobby Young.

The answer is that Ben had no motivation to see Aronow dead..
Ben was on 188th at Fort Apache when Don was leaving Bobby S at Apache.
The story is substantially more complex, and Ben and Don..while rivals, had a great deal of respect for each other.(prolly get alot of chit for that one)

Smarty..you are stand up guy..thanks for your posts and I would be happy to talk anytime

cashbrain
10-24-2009, 11:34 PM
Getting back to help Ben Kramer, we all are redeemable in the eyes of God. I have to work on my on salvation first. I didn't mean to bring church to this this thread, but when I do help others it helps me feel good about what I do for a living. If I can help one addict or alcoholic change their ways, that is huge. Or, if I can help a drug dealer learn a trade, HVAC, electrical, or whatever, and become a productive member of society then that is even better. It is time to give back, service to others.

We are of the same mind..I am working on several programs such as these now...

Smarty
10-24-2009, 11:54 PM
We are of the same mind..I am working on several programs such as these now...


That is what I am talking about...good for you. Regardless of what Ben Kramer may or may not have did the fact that you are his friend, and have stuck by him says alot as to loyalty (and possibly forgiveness without judgment) and this is an example of the type of guy that you are, I do admire that character quality (loyalty and forgiveness) I will e-mail you this week. I am glad that we have meeting of the minds on common ground.

Offshoredrillin
10-25-2009, 09:25 AM
Ben was brought into the room in shackles. and was escorted to the bathroom.
It is a horrific way to live...far worse than any of us can imagine
again, what part of jail is supposed to be all comfy and cozy? I do understand what you are saying but ya know what its called jail for a reason, to punish criminals, and as a deterrent to people that are thinking of committing crimes. Why is there a club fed, so high dollar criminals can serve their time in comforts, bring back Alcatraz and devils island..Kramer can be the modern day Papillon, we as a society are too leniant.


when I was sitting with Ben, he pointed out some of the criminals that were there...a guy that was sitting behind us cut up three guys in a drug deal..it is very disturbing.


Yes it is disturbing, but I wonder if he saw the irony in seeing the murderer, someone had to import the drugs for him to be involved in the deal that proliferated the murder...viscous cycle isnt it? Kramer knew the chances of getting caught but went ahead and did the crime...

phragle
10-25-2009, 11:30 AM
if yo commit a crime, you go to jail. not boyscout camp.. reality and tv sitcoms are a very different thing.

MikeyFIN
10-25-2009, 11:46 AM
We are of the same mind..I am working on several programs such as these now...
offtopic.
I took care of Juveniles in a program letting them work in my shop or train with them but the program got cancelled many moons ago.
Some of them are doing fine and work, got a family etc some are still bad but everyone greets me while I bump into them and changes at least few words.
I felt I was good for something at least.

And Yes Ben was made as an example probably because of his flashy lifestyle.

Seems the Envy isnīt a Finnish thing afterall...
As thereīs a saying envy goes before getting randy over here...

MikeyFIN
10-25-2009, 11:54 AM
Yes it is disturbing, but I wonder if he saw the irony in seeing the murderer, someone had to import the drugs for him to be involved in the deal that proliferated the murder...viscous cycle isnt it? Kramer knew the chances of getting caught but went ahead and did the crime...



The answer is that Ben had no motivation to see Aronow dead..
Ben was on 188th at Fort Apache when Don was leaving Bobby S at Apache.
The story is substantially more complex, and Ben and Don..while rivals, had a great deal of respect for each other.(prolly get alot of chit for that one)


guess you forgot this Cashbrain wrote...

I mean If you think of it it makes sense...and itīs the only fact in this case which isnīt based on assumptions.


I also got misled by the message board wiseguys before and gotta say follow your gut instinct based on real facts.
Cashbrains told it like this and somebody else also From Bens visitor list exactly the same on different forums.

Geronimo36
10-25-2009, 12:04 PM
Just remember, you are the company you keep. Whether or not it's the same it is the perception.

Applaud you for your efforts, good luck guys... If he gets out hopefully he wont continue like in his past...

signing off!!

Offshoredrillin
10-25-2009, 12:08 PM
guess you forgot this Cashbrain wrote...

I mean If you think of it it makes sense...and itīs the only fact in this case which isnīt based on assumptions.


I also got misled by the message board wiseguys before and gotta say follow your gut instinct based on real facts.
Cashbrains told it like this and somebody else also From Bens visitor list exactly the same on different forums.
You need to read my posts more carefully. I'm assuming he didnt have anything to do with it, which is why I say don't take a plea deal if you didnt do it...he had a life sentence on the drug charges, he was already in solitary according to cashbrain when they came to him with the murder plea...your point is moot.

MikeyFIN
10-25-2009, 12:16 PM
You need to read my posts more carefully. I'm assuming he didnt have anything to do with it, which is why I say don't take a plea deal if you didnt do it...he had a life sentence on the drug charges, he was already in solitary according to cashbrain when they came to him with the murder plea...your point is moot.

Well like he said himself he wanted to get out of it and took the plea just to get out, he didnīt care anymore.

A ****ty system isnīt it ?

cashbrain
10-25-2009, 12:16 PM
My perspective is that we all make mistakes..I wound up getting divorced, but, I guarantee that you couldn't have talked me out of being with her and marrying her. In retrospect, it was the worst decision of my life.

Point being that I think that Ben at that time(he was in his 20"s) felt invincible.
He had money and power. He told me that he went to parties where everyone was smoking pot..judges,lawyers..he knew them all.
Is this different from Miami and other places around he country?..
hardly.
At that time(in the 80's),the awareness or lack of was non-existant.No one gave a damn and it was a cool thing to do. Supply and demand.

I do think that all of these guys thought they were above the law...
obviously,not the case.

Not one of those guys thought they would ever get caught..things were lax then..certainly not today's awareness and standards.

If it wasn't for drugs,188th would most likely never have been what it became. All these guys were dirty..even Aronow.No secret.

MikeyFIN
10-25-2009, 12:22 PM
All these guys were dirty..even Aronow.No secret.

That was the times and it was global...in the 80īs people went to Ibiza to party and there you could see row after row of powerboats....

So no wonder people are hooked.

Regarding Aronow... a Construction builder from NJ that moves to Florida and lives the first 6 months in a Hotel is a coincidence.... Come on.:dupe::dupe:

Comanche3Six
10-25-2009, 04:39 PM
They know who they have locked up. He is in for life.

TCEd
10-25-2009, 04:57 PM
If any of us spent 60 days in solitary confinement with the threat of it being the rest of your life, I'm pretty sure you would agree to almost anything.
He agreed,but, clearly there was no option.
We can sit here and make judgement calls all day,but, I was there and I can tell you..it isn't pretty. Ben was brought into the room in shackles. and was escorted to the bathroom.
It is a horrific way to live...far worse than any of us can imagine

Was this after the attempted helicopter escape ?

phragle
10-25-2009, 05:22 PM
There's a lot worse places one can be than an american jail....

cashbrain
10-25-2009, 10:40 PM
They know who they have locked up. He is in for life.

Don't be so sure...

Expensive Date
10-25-2009, 11:28 PM
Thought about this today while waxing my boat.if Don was still alive would the threads go something like this...............



Picked up my new 39 Top Gun today love the boat she has got 700s and #6 drives.Just curios though the sea trial was a little strange.After 15 min I fell in love with the boat and said I will take it.But the salesman said we had to stay out for a full hour he never would say why.When we got back my wife who had stayed behind was waiting at the dock her hair was all messed up and the buttons on her blouse weren't lined up.I asked her what happened and she said it was windy.I am thinking this is a little strange has this happened to any one else.

DAREDEVIL
10-26-2009, 09:29 AM
Thought about this today while waxing my boat.if Don was still alive would the threads go something like this...............



Picked up my new 39 Top Gun today love the boat she has got 700s and #6 drives.Just curios though the sea trial was a little strange.After 15 min I fell in love with the boat and said I will take it.But the salesman said we had to stay out for a full hour he never would say why.When we got back my wife who had stayed behind was waiting at the dock her hair was all messed up and the buttons on her blouse weren't lined up.I asked her what happened and she said it was windy.I am thinking this is a little strange has this happened to any one else.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I think thats why he is no longer around.
he did get shot in the di.. , so what does that tell u ?!

cashbrain
10-26-2009, 09:49 AM
Thought about this today while waxing my boat.if Don was still alive would the threads go something like this...............



Picked up my new 39 Top Gun today love the boat she has got 700s and #6 drives.Just curios though the sea trial was a little strange.After 15 min I fell in love with the boat and said I will take it.But the salesman said we had to stay out for a full hour he never would say why.When we got back my wife who had stayed behind was waiting at the dock her hair was all messed up and the buttons on her blouse weren't lined up.I asked her what happened and she said it was windy.I am thinking this is a little strange has this happened to any one else.

:sifone::rofl:

Comanche3Six
10-26-2009, 07:45 PM
Don't be so sure...

Cash,
I'm positive! And you are too. But fantasy is fun.......Carry on, we have already burned through a couple of decades with this topic. And until Ben dies in prison, we may as well keep at it. Being a free man on the outside is refreshing, to say the least.
Ed

DollaBill
10-26-2009, 07:57 PM
My perspective is that we all make mistakes..I wound up getting divorced, but, I guarantee that you couldn't have talked me out of being with her and marrying her. In retrospect, it was the worst decision of my life.

Point being that I think that Ben at that time(he was in his 20"s) felt invincible.
He had money and power. He told me that he went to parties where everyone was smoking pot..judges,lawyers..he knew them all.
Is this different from Miami and other places around he country?..
hardly.
At that time(in the 80's),the awareness or lack of was non-existant.No one gave a damn and it was a cool thing to do. Supply and demand.

I do think that all of these guys thought they were above the law...
obviously,not the case.

Not one of those guys thought they would ever get caught..things were lax then..certainly not today's awareness and standards.

If it wasn't for drugs,188th would most likely never have been what it became. All these guys were dirty..even Aronow.No secret.

Miami and Lauderdale are still the same. It's still the 80's there. I've seen stuff that most would think could only be made up. And, many celeb's etc were doing it.







I was just watching from a safe distance :sifone:

fund razor
10-26-2009, 09:18 PM
I was just watching from a safe distance :sifone:

That's why I have a long reach. :)

cashbrain
10-27-2009, 11:27 AM
Cash,
I'm positive! And you are too. But fantasy is fun.......Carry on, we have already burned through a couple of decades with this topic. And until Ben dies in prison, we may as well keep at it. Being a free man on the outside is refreshing, to say the least.
Ed

There may be specific technicalities that have never been challenged before, not to mention exoneration of Aronow...never know !

DollaBill
10-27-2009, 12:06 PM
That's why I have a long reach. :)

LOL Fund. Hope you're hanging in there

phragle
10-27-2009, 12:06 PM
and I may win the lottery tomorrow too....

OldSchool
10-27-2009, 03:55 PM
There may be specific technicalities that have never been challenged before, not to mention exoneration of Aronow...never know !

Is Maxine getting ready for another T-Shirt campaign???:rofl::rofl::rofl:

JupiterSunsation
10-27-2009, 05:04 PM
let him out on the conditions I stated. It would be great for ratings for CBS's upcoming schedule


only if he races a step bottom boat with no instruction! :26:

Bet he would be really shocked/confused then!

cashbrain
10-28-2009, 11:38 AM
:26::26::26::26::26::26::26:
is maxine getting ready for another t-shirt campaign???:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Smarty
10-29-2009, 05:29 PM
In post 165 I typed:

I am getting out of the lawyer field and I am going back into sales (hopefully, I will know this week whether I start in this new career). At the end of each day I ask myself, "did I make the world a better place today, or did I help make the world a worse place to live?" That explains the change of profession (plus I will get paid more money).

I have accepted a job in legal sales, so as of next week I will not be representing criminal defendants.

FYI - the free Ben Kramer movement will have to go on without me, I was never on board, I am just a spectator. And it has been an interesting thread with some polar viewpoints. But then again if the word Apache is in the thread, it must be interesting.

Geronimo36
10-29-2009, 05:33 PM
Congrats on the new job!!!!

Smarty
10-29-2009, 06:03 PM
Congrats on the new job!!!!

Frank, thank you. We need to meet one of these days..not sure when, that is the hard part, you get older, and seem to zero free time.

Geronimo36
10-29-2009, 08:26 PM
I hear ya about the time part!! Next summer I might do some boating down in south Jersey. My sister and her husband bought a house on the Mullica so I'm thinking of bringing the boat down to her place for a couple of weeks!!!