Am I choking my 588ci? Need Doms?

[Nordicflame]

Just curious as to some thoughts here...

My motors are 588ci (4.56 x 4.50), 10:1, Valako fully ported Dart 325s
(flow at .650 is 400/301), Custom RMB cam in the mid to upper 240s with
significant lift, High RPM Morels, 8205PLUS springs at 175# seat, CMI
Sport Tubes.


Here's where I'm concerned: Intakes are Merlin 4150 marine versions that are simply port matched and the carbs are HP1000s (ProSystems) with a 1" 4 hole HVH . The carbs wet flow tested around 898. Not being much of a carb guy I've come to understand that the HP1000 is not much more carb than an 850 so it has me wondering. Also it seems the intakes have fairly small runners from gathered info.

Being in a fairly light boat (Nordic 35) it will literally throw you back in the seats from 3500 to 5200 and then hover around 5300-5400. Like it just stops climbing but doesn't seem like it's ready to. The cam is designed to pull up 5800.

I have a set of ported tall deck 4500 Victors that I can switch to if I purchase some new Doms so I just wanted to get some feed back from some that may have made this swap.

I think MER has had a similar experience on the dyno lately that he kindly shared and thought maybe he could re-share his findings.

Notes:
If it matters my A/F ratio goes from ~13.0:1 4500-5000 and then quickly to 11.6 at 5000-5400.
Also I have tested some props that should have spun higher but they really didn't.

Thanks,
Dave

[Geronimo36]

Hydralic or Solid rollers?

What are the flow numbers on the 325's after porting? why small runners with that size Cu. In?

Cam seems small but I'm not a cam guru. I would expect more duration to give you better top end.

I have forced induction but I have 580 cu. in. with 254/262 and .636 lift, solid roller and it's fairly mild.

I guess the carb could work but that big of an engine I'd go tunnel ram or dom's. but hey, it's easy to spend others money!

[Brian41]

What is your vacuum reading at 5400? I have a 572 on dyno today with 930 wet CFM 4150 C&S carb making 700 HP when it should be 775-800 HP. The vacuum went up from .9 @ 3200 RPM to 2.1 @ 6200 RPM, l also have similar O2 readings. I just ordered Pro Systems 1150's.

[Nordicflame]

Hydralic or Solid rollers?

What are the flow numbers on the 325's after porting?

Cam seems small but I'm not a cam guru. I would expect more duration to give you better top end.

I have forced induction but I have 580 cu. in. with 254/262 and .636 lift, solid roller and it's fairly mild.

Have you propped the boat for 5800 rpms?

Hydraulics, flow numbers are in the post...

[Nordicflame]

What is your vacuum reading at 5400? I have a 572 on dyno today with 930 wet CFM 4150 C&S carb making 700 HP when it should be 775-800 HP. The vacuum went up from .9 @ 3200 RPM to 2.1 @ 6200 RPM, l also have similar O2 readings. I just ordered Pro Systems 1150's.

My ProSystems base plates don't have vacuum ports because I wanted black ones :ack2: My bad.

Sounds like your on the same path and maybe I can piggy back your info :)

What intake were you using and what will you be using?

Thanks,
Dave

[Geronimo36]

Maybe the carbs are going rich because they're being forced to compensate for the lack of CFM so they're sucking more fuel...

Cam seems short on duration for a 588" NA engine, no?

[Brian41]

Intakes are Victor 454-TD's custom done by Wilson manifolds,they are Dom base with Wilson 4150 adapters. Heads are AFR 325 with CNC bowls cut down to 114 CC with intake correction make static compression of 9.9 to 1. Cams are from Bob Madara.

Carbs will be here Wednesday I will rerun them and post # then.

[Nordicflame]

Geronimo...
My thoughts on rich condition are the same :)

Solid vs hydraulic, apples to oranges. These cams are actually not much less than yours :sifone:
They were also designed around a few factors such as high altitude, exhaust, etc...

Brian, please post your results!!!

Thanks Guys

[Trim'd Up]

On a buddies boat with a similar setup although single engine he gained 300+ rpms going to a 1050 over the 950 holley, no other changes. This was on a 540 with 651 cam (I think). On my 548 I am running an 1150 dom on a merlin X intake, ported Iron eagles and a RM builder(244, 250 630 lift), didn't try a smaller carb to compare but it runs real well and will pull to 6000 easily.

[MERPerformance]

Nordicflame, Looked over your post. I had a 604 with Dart cnc 335, 4150 intake and a HP 1000 carb. This was not my original build. Bob and I did the Hi rev lifters as you know along with his cam. We were expecting to pick-up from 734 hp to about 775-800 hp. I made a pull after the break-in and only made a 6hp gain, I was like" what the he--", called Bob, HEY ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THIS CAM? We talked about it and decided lets try a dfferent intake and carb, I had a dart 4500 ported on the shelf and a Holley 1050 that was just used on a 800hp solid roller engine. Gave it a shot, first pull 775 second pull 815 hp @ 6000rpm. The original run didn't go rich, it just was weak and fell off. Didn't you run on dyno first? If so, what results did you have at that time. Talk with Bob, see what he says about this.

[MERPerformance]

Why are your spring pressures 175# on the seat?

[MERPerformance]

What is your vacuum reading at 5400? I have a 572 on dyno today with 930 wet CFM 4150 C&S carb making 700 HP when it should be 775-800 HP. The vacuum went up from .9 @ 3200 RPM to 2.1 @ 6200 RPM, l also have similar O2 readings. I just ordered Pro Systems 1150's.
Are you going to change the intake?

[Ratickle]

Since we're on flow, and an engine is a pump, will the CMI sport tubes handle the increased flow of the correct intake and carb?

[MERPerformance]

Since we're on flow, and an engine is a pump, will the CMI sport tubes handle the increased flow of the correct intake and carb?

Are you testing me or do we need to call CMI?

[DAREDEVIL]

Are you testing me or do we need to call CMI?

:rofl::sifone::rofl::sifone::rofl:

[Brian41]

Are you going to change the intake?

Do not have to it already has a 4500 intake.

[Nordicflame]

Why are your spring pressures 175# on the seat?

Mark,
If my memory serves me right Bob wanted me to run more in the 200 neighborhood but with the .664 lift it was getting close to the spring limit.
Again, going on memory only here :(

Thanks for your input.

By the way I believe WetteVette is making some very serious hp with his 598 tunnel ram motors with the Sport Tubes at 6000+ rpm. Of course he has two Doms :D

Dave

[Ratickle]

Are you testing me or do we need to call CMI?

I was serious. No test. Just wondered where the CMI's stopped.....

[DAREDEVIL]

Mark,
If my memory serves me right Bob wanted me to run more in the 200 neighborhood but with the .664 lift it was getting close to the spring limit.
Again, going on memory only here :(

Thanks for your input.

By the way I believe WetteVette is making some very serious hp with his 598 tunnel ram motors with the Sport Tubes at 6000+ rpm. Of course he has two Doms :D

Dave

I know a 598 with solid roller and dart intake and 1050 dominator makes around 800 HP @ 6 K rpm.
My spring press is 225 @ the seat.

[Geronimo36]

Geronimo...
My thoughts on rich condition are the same :)

Solid vs hydraulic, apples to oranges. These cams are actually not much less than yours :sifone:
They were also designed around a few factors such as high altitude, exhaust, etc...

Brian, please post your results!!!

Thanks Guys

I agree to that.

Like I said previously, my cam is mild for my cubic inches and I have forced induction. I believe total duration on my cam is something like 298* if I remember correctly. I also set for .016 instead of .020 they call for. ;)

Your cam is pretty close to a Crane 651 which is 244/256, .632" lift which was advertised up to 572" give/take.

Looking forward to seeing if the Dom's work!:driving:

[PatriYacht]

I think the Dominators will help alot. If you want good low speed manners, you should use 2 circuit like the 8082-1. All Dominators have too large of high speed air bleeds causing top end to go very lean. I replaced mine with .027's. Alot of drag race guys think the Victor intakes are the best out there. Depending on who ported them, you might have a real winning combination there

[MERPerformance]

Just so you know from my post. Intake volume, cross-sectional area of the intake are going to be the next key factor. If you have a larger cid engine even if the heads are only 320, 335 cnc, you still have to supply enough air to fill the cylinder. With a 572, 588, 598, 604, a 4150 intake is going to be to small unless you want a stopping ponit on power at a specific rpm. By no means am I a expert on this. I'll use a Demon 1025 cfm RS on my 540-548 cid with a 4150 style intake. 555 cid up a 1050, 604 used a 1150. The indication of hi vac. on the test was a good sign the carb was small with the 4500 style in take. I myself wouldn't take a 4500 intake put an adapter on it and go to a smaller carb on a 572. On the 588 put them on the dyno with what you have get some readings, change the intakes and put a1050 or 1150 on them you'll be where you expected to be in the build.
Why do we always think its the cam at fault, Just think how much is left on the table when you say or someone says; IT IS WHAT IT IS!
Nice job on posting those specs:(

[WETTE VETTE]

Definately run Dominators. Call Dean Nickerson and give him all of the info on your motor including your elevation and he will build a carb that will idle great, have a near perfect fuel curve and make more power than the 4150 based carb on this combo. I would also either run a fully ported intake or at least one that only needs minimal porting out of the box. I believe one of the top manifolds out of the box is the Super Victor 2911. Also don't be surprised if Nickerson recommends a 1150 or even a 1250 Domi. 588's are big motors and 5800 RPM is more than enough to take advantage of the 4500 carb. :)

[DAREDEVIL]

I thought a Team G or Dart is the best out of box intake for BIG engines ????

[MikeyFIN]

Maybe the carbs are going rich because they're being forced to compensate for the lack of CFM so they're sucking more fuel...


They are IMO.
Slap a vacuum gauge in there and go from there.
And fuel press...

KISS principle still works wonders guys.,,and that principle separates the men from boys when it comes to engine tuning.



Cam seems short on duration for a 588" NA engine, no?

Not actually.
I doesn´t need to be a bigger cam in a BIGGER ENGINE if the engine otherwise breathes.
Velocity is the key.

[MikeyFIN]

i know a 598 with solid roller and dart intake and 1050 dominator makes around 800 hp @ 6 k rpm.
My spring press is 225 @ the seat.



shhhhhhh.........
http://www.post-ers.com/client/post-ers/inventories/INV30/1471.jpg

[Geronimo36]

Not actually.
I doesn´t need to be a bigger cam in a BIGGER ENGINE if the engine otherwise breathes.
Velocity is the key.

I can agree to that... if the heads flow well enough and everything else is matched the cam can/will work. PS , bob usually designs his cams base on everything the engine has, heads, flow #'s, intake, spacer etc. I called him about my cam when we were doing the upgrade and the cam he suggested was almost identical to the "shelf" cam we already picked out and his estimated numbers vs. my dyno numbers were very close. He even suggested we could go bigger on the cam but my cylinder heads were the limiting factor. ;)

I'm curious to see what the dominators do and and as suggested, larger intake. Obviously there's a restriction. ;)

[MikeyFIN]

offtopic...

I a few years back built the top end and put a new cam on a supposedly rebuilt motor and told the customers the Hp number by feel after a test run at what rpm and It dynoed Exactly at that on the first pull. 2 hours later this old Drag Racer could only muster 3hp more out of it as I on purpose left it rich.
He asked who built this engine and when he heard my name he said..yes I´ve heard about him and called the day quits.

Funny...

[MikeyFIN]

I'm curious to see what the dominators do and and as suggested, larger intake. Obviously there's a restriction. ;)

I say 730 at 6100.

[Nordicflame]

Intakes are Victor 454-TD's custom done by Wilson manifolds,they are Dom base with Wilson 4150 adapters. Heads are AFR 325 with CNC bowls cut down to 114 CC with intake correction make static compression of 9.9 to 1. Cams are from Bob Madara.

Carbs will be here Wednesday I will rerun them and post # then.

Hey Brian,
Have you been back to the dyno yet? :bigear:
Thanks,
Dave

[Ratickle]

I told the customers the Hp number by feel after a test run at what rpm and It dynoed Exactly at that on the first pull.

If you can do that by holding a prop on the boat while it's on land, we can find a tech job over here for you in a race org.....:sifone:

[Geronimo36]

Checked my cam card, advertised duration at .015 is 304/312, I shorted myself a bit.:seeya:
Crane 138631

So, how did the Dominators work?

[Brian41]

Hey Brian,
Have you been back to the dyno yet? :bigear:
Thanks,
Dave

Yes, we ran them yesterday and only picked up 28HP and 21TQ on first run. We noticed the BSFC numbers were having an issue at about 5000 RPM's so we are taking a look at the valve springs.

[MikeyFIN]

If you can do that by holding a prop on the boat while it's on land, we can find a tech job over here for you in a race org.....:sifone:

Yes I Can...how much does your insurance cover ???:sifone:

[Geronimo36]

Yes, we ran them yesterday and only picked up 28HP and 21TQ on first run. We noticed the BSFC numbers were having an issue at about 5000 RPM's so we are taking a look at the valve springs.

Where I come from, 30hp gain from only a carb change is pretty significant!!! Seem's like you're on the right path.

30 hp should be worth .5 - 1 mph and a little extra RPM I would suspect.

[Pismo10]

So what was the final verdict?

[Nordicflame]

Mine is a winter conversion. I will report back when I have results.

Brian,
Have you come up with anything?

Thanks

[Trim'd Up]

Where I come from, 30hp gain from only a carb change is pretty significant!!! Seem's like you're on the right path.

30 hp should be worth .5 - 1 mph and a little extra RPM I would suspect.

Kinda what I was thinking. Especially on the first pull.

[KAAMA]

When looking at a Holley Dominator carb, how can you determine whether the carb is a 2 circuit or 3 circuit system??? Which system is better and more tunable?

Also, which system (2 or 3 circuit) is better for a marine supercharged application?

And....which system (2 or 3 circuit) is better for idle quality?

Thanks in advance, Mark

[PatriYacht]

Looking down at the top of the carb, a two circuit will have 2 holes near each throttle bore. Those are the idle and high speed air bleeds. A three cicuit will have 3 holes. An idle, mid range and high speed air bleeds. Newer carbs have removable air bleeds that look like jets. Problem is, mid range tends to run very rich. Most carb shops modify these to almost eliminate the midrange. It's easier to start with a two circuit.

[PatriYacht]

Here is some info on 2 versus 3 circuit Dominators. http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9934

[KAAMA]

Here is some info on 2 versus 3 circuit Dominators. http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9934

Thanks Ian!!!

[KAAMA]

Okay, my friend removed the spark arrestor off the carbs. As you look down on the carbs there are a total of 12 air jet style screw-in bleeds. Also, on the sides of these Dominators it says: "List 8896 2" and then it says "Model 4500"

[Trim'd Up]

8896's are 3 circuit. I have one myself.

[Nordicflame]

I just thought I'd give a preliminary update with a first water test.
Spring is trying to let go and give way to nicer weather and I had an opportunity to go out and run in some nice 58* weather.

Anyway, I made some changes other than the Dom/Victor setups such as a switch to 380 K-Plates from 280s, prop tweak from BBlades and some nose cones but the results are actually pretty startling, real, and point directly to the induction in my view.

No dyno results but real live boat testing should do the trick.
Last year I could 87-89 at will in any temp and on occasion touch 90 pulling 5300-5400 rpm.
Keep in mind that all results are from 4400-5000 feet elevation :(

I installed the ProSystems 1100 Doms on top of the port matched and blended TD Victors. Motors fired right off on the hose and idled perfect.
Went to the lake, backed it in to the water and was ready to mess with the in/out of gear situation. Put it in forward on the trailer and it dropped from 900 to 750 with no issue at all.

After confirming timing "again" and preliminary runs to 4500 rpm with the A/F meter in hand we determined we were very safe (rich) and proceded to mess with the new tabs a bit to see what it liked. It liked more tab when over 80 so I gave it a good hard run. First hard pull stabled by the tabs netted a 5800rpm pull and just a touch over 95mph :driving: So much for the tabs scubbing speed :rolleyes:

The carbs are pretty good all over but pretty gurglly and sputtery between off idle and about 3000 rpm when they clear out (A/F was in the high 10s here). It was also pretty rich up on top at about 10.8-11.0:1 so more power is still hanging around in there :)
The great customer service with ProSystems is calculating my air bleed and jetting changes. Hard to hit a high altitude setup out of the box I suppose.

As far as idling and docking with the Doms, I was able to change my Crane box from my 24/34 curve back to the easier starting 14/34 curve with no issue at all so far.

Guess the outcome for me is that these big inch motors need much more than what the standard carb calculator says :D
Let'em breath!

Can't wait to come down to your low elevations :sifone:

Dave

[DAREDEVIL]

I just thought I'd give a preliminary update with a first water test.
Spring is trying to let go and give way to nicer weather and I had an opportunity to go out and run in some nice 58* weather.

Anyway, I made some changes other than the Dom/Victor setups such as a switch to 380 K-Plates from 280s, prop tweak from BBlades and some nose cones but the results are actually pretty startling, real, and point directly to the induction in my view.

No dyno results but real live boat testing should do the trick.
Last year I could 87-89 at will in any temp and on occasion touch 90 pulling 5300-5400 rpm.
Keep in mind that all results are from 4400-5000 feet elevation :(

I installed the ProSystems 1100 Doms on top of the port matched and blended TD Victors. Motors fired right off on the hose and idled perfect.
Went to the lake, backed it in to the water and was ready to mess with the in/out of gear situation. Put it in forward on the trailer and it dropped from 900 to 750 with no issue at all.

After confirming timing "again" and preliminary runs to 4500 rpm with the A/F meter in hand we determined we were very safe (rich) and proceded to mess with the new tabs a bit to see what it liked. It liked more tab when over 80 so I gave it a good hard run. First hard pull stabled by the tabs netted a 5800rpm pull and just a touch over 95mph :driving: So much for the tabs scubbing speed :rolleyes:

The carbs are pretty good all over but pretty gurglly and sputtery between off idle and about 3000 rpm when they clear out (A/F was in the high 10s here). It was also pretty rich up on top at about 10.8-11.0:1 so more power is still hanging around in there :)
The great customer service with ProSystems is calculating my air bleed and jetting changes. Hard to hit a high altitude setup out of the box I suppose.

As far as idling and docking with the Doms, I was able to change my Crane box from my 24/34 curve back to the easier starting 14/34 curve with no issue at all so far.

Guess the outcome for me is that these big inch motors need much more than what the standard carb calculator says :D
Let'em breath!

Can't wait to come down to your low elevations :sifone:

Dave

Congrats...:cheers2:

[northernoffshore]

I have 2 new 1050 cfm carbs with flame arresstors and cable holders. jay

[WETTE VETTE]

Thought for next year. Have Bob set you up with a couple of Darrin Morgan ported TR's and go to 2-Domis and watch the speedo go past the century mark!! You're right these big motors need to breathe. Congrats on the results!:cheers2:

[Nordicflame]

Thought for next year. Have Bob set you up with a couple of Darrin Morgan ported TR's and go to 2-Domis and watch the speedo go past the century mark!! You're right these big motors need to breathe. Congrats on the results!:cheers2:

That would be tempting Craig but the hatch was already an obstacle with the Doms and new flame arrestors I built. My wife, as patient as she is :) would probably trump that thought :smash:

I'm very satisfied at this point!

Thanks for the :cheers2:!
Dave

[Pismo10]

Great thread.

[jeffswav]

Congrats on your project!! Bob RMbuilder is definatly the cam Guru. Wideband O2 it the only way to tune. Sounds like you are a little rich and should be able to get a few more HP. Problem is if you change elevations you will have to retune. I have the Holley MPI kit with wideband O2, the PCM will adjust the fuel for the conditions.

[AIR TIME]

Congrats on your project!! Bob RMbuilder is definatly the cam Guru. Wideband O2 it the only way to tune. Sounds like you are a little rich and should be able to get a few more HP. Problem is if you change elevations you will have to retune. I have the Holley MPI kit with wideband O2, the PCM will adjust the fuel for the conditions.

sounds good, I had a DN 1050 for my 509 woke it right up from the 850 bg but it wouldn't idle the few test runs and after it was stolen DEAN G set me up with a CFM carb but have not used it yet. so who does a great intake ? wilson .I want bob to pick a better cam and with a ported intake and some head work done to my merlins was hoping for 700hp out of my 509 its at 650 plus with the DN carb stock 1050 was 650hp. but this will be later this summer after I get my blown 572 from DEAN in the next two weeks I hope.

[PatriYacht]

Edelbrock makes a cnc ported Victor and Super Victor for a reasonable price. If you want to spend the big bucks, Wilson could do a good job. Delivery this time of the year might take a while. Rmbuilder was talking about writing a cnc program of his own for Edelbrock manifolds. I wonder if he ever got that finished?

[DAREDEVIL]

These Intakes are ment to make power and have a nice flow !!!!!

http://www.profilerperformance.com/bbc-singleplaneintake-206.html

[Nordicflame]

These Intakes are ment to make power and have a nice flow !!!!!

http://www.profilerperformance.com/bbc-singleplaneintake-206.html

Too tall for my application and they do not accept standard length distributors.
I too was intrigued with the Jr.
Dave

[PatriYacht]

The unported Super Vic would be just as good at the rpm's these engines turn at 1/3 the cost. If you're going to turn 8000 rpm and run nitrous, the Profiler might make more hp.

[DAREDEVIL]

Too tall for my application and they do not accept standard length distributors.
I too was intrigued with the Jr.
Dave

What do u mean by they don't accept standard distributors..is there any thing else out there....u stick a slip collar on it and tats how all of the tall deck ones work, if the intake is not machined !!!!:confused:

[AIR TIME]

What do u mean by they don't accept standard distributors..is there any thing else out there....u stick a slip collar on it and tats how all of the tall deck ones work, if the intake is not machined !!!!:confused:

thats what they ment, the jr is for 9.8 502 to 540 short deck reg distributors and tall decks need collars. I am calling them to see if the jr will get me power over my dart from 5000 to 6400rpm for the 509. DD was hoping to see yah at the races this yr but still waiting for my motor.:(

[DAREDEVIL]

thats what they ment, the jr is for 9.8 502 to 540 short deck reg distributors and tall decks need collars. I am calling them to see if the jr will get me power over my dart from 5000 to 6400rpm for the 509. DD was hoping to see yah at the races this yr but still waiting for my motor.:(

Well see each other soon buddy !!!!!
They also make it for a short deck...but i know some manufacturs actually mashine the distributor hole down so the standard will fit..!

[Nordicflame]

I use standard length Thunderbolt distributors (attached to a Crane HI-6M) because they seem to be bulletproof compared to the others out there.
That's what standard means :rolleyes:
Most all of the newer intakes are machined to accept standard distributors; the Snipers are not.

Hopefully someone picks up the Crane HI-6M product line so this can be continued.

[WETTE VETTE]

Easy to put a slip collar on those distributors. Put them in a lathe and cut the collar off and buy a slip collar. Also a lot of the newer intakes have already made the adjustment for a standard length dist. My Dart TR uses a standard length dist with the tall deck. I found out after I spent the $$ on a new slip collar dist and once I set the height it ended up exactly at a stock distributor.:icon_bs:

[DAREDEVIL]

Easy to put a slip collar on those distributors. Put them in a lathe and cut the collar off and buy a slip collar. Also a lot of the newer intakes have already made the adjustment for a standard length dist. My Dart TR uses a standard length dist with the tall deck. I found out after I spent the $$ on a new slip collar dist and once I set the height it ended up exactly at a stock distributor.:icon_bs:

lol:rolleyes::willy_nilly: